carltons hell part three

[darren waitee]

Hi all
This is the third time I have started a thread and not always with positive returns but that is ok as everyone has their opinions and I am happy to hear it
The one thing that we all agree on is we are all sick and tried of Carlton being a rabble
Any bad news breaking you don’t need to know the club just head for Royal Parade
As I have mentioned before I have some close contacts inside the club giving me the information
I want all Carlton members to be aware of the facts giving them the choice to vote at the upcoming AGM
Again I respect your opinion as I expect you to respect mine

THE SMORGON CAMP

Greame Smorgon has returned Carlton to the rabble it was after Elliott was thrown out on his ear
Any good work or light at the end of the tunnel thanks to the hard work from Ian Collins has gone
Make no mistake Smorgon has formed a very tight team around him including Malouf Kernahan Gleeson and Wilson
Forget the we are all family line this group have formed a dictatorship going back to September this year
Is it any surprise that Mathieson Valmorbida have resigned and the push from the Smorgon group is to out Diggins this year
All the three above fought and saved Denis Pagan and stood firm against a group blackmailing the board with demands backed by money
Since then the board has been spilt on many issues for example Barry Mitchell should he go or stay and what position should he be given - the football department in other words Denis Pagan having to have every decision approved by the board and you take that from the horses mouth - a business plan approved and put together by Mike Fitzpatrick after spending three months sitting on the Carlton board ignored by Smorgon upsetting the AFL - and now the decision to increase the board to 12 after Smorgon has spent the last three months demanding the board be cut to six
Lets look at that shall we could it be that with rumors of a tickets being formed and with a board of less than 12 a ticket could be formed and while not everyone from that ticket may get on the board Smorgons five may find themselves outnumbered losing the power that they have enjoyed for the past four months
With a full number of 12 a ticked being formed would have to run as a full ticket meaning members vote for one or the other giving Smorgon a better chance of staying and keeping the numbers on his side
So what about the business plan
The AFL arranged for Mike Fitzpatrick to sit in on the board for the past three months to report back to the AFL and assist the board in any way
Two weeks ago Fitzpatrick finished a detailed business plan and presented the report to the AFL and to the Carlton board
The board demised the report and the AFL was furious as I am told there was some excellent points made
But when I say the board does that mean all the board members in fact the decision was made without a board member present
That’s right you guess who
Smorgons statement that one board member could not change the votes
He maybe right when you have six numbers out of nine
The Zantuck issue was another interesting issue
Since October Denis Pagans decision making and view on his football department has become decisions for the board
Or has it
Smorgon will tell you that the board never spoke about the Zantuck issue strange then that Kernahan spoke to the board regarding the pre season draft and possible players to be drafted two weeks ago
Isn’t Kernahan on the board
Shock horror when Denis Pagan wanted Zantuck Kernahan told Pagan he was not to be drafted
On radio that night when all hell broke loose after Denis Pagans comments regarding his hands have been tied Smorgon told all that he had checked with all board members today to double check if the issue was ever spoken about
According to Smorgan all the board members agreed the issue had never been spoken about
What Smorgan would not answer after I phoned the radio station was is he sure he spoke to all board members
At least three board members were not contacted that day by any board member guess who again and after a tied vote on the future of CEO Michael Malouf then suddenly overnight the vote switched but according to Smorgon no calls were made to change board members minds and when certain board members arrived the next evening to continue to discuss the issue the vote had been taken decision made
Leaving Smorgon and his five merry men in dictatorship of the Carlton Football Club will never be the answer and never see this club move forward
Season 2007 will see the sacking of Denis Pagan - no improvement with the clubs finances - and no support to the football department or Denis Pagan - in other words NO FUTURE
So the ticked in today’s press must be the answer right - NO
Lets look who is hiding in the shadows of ticket
1 Tom Elliott the spokesman back to finish off the job Daddy did and wipe Carlton off the map once and for all
With Daddy Percy Jones and Wes Lofts backing Tom will have you believe he is the white knight
2 Oh there is Fraser Brown hiding back there
After one attempt to sack Denis Pagan Fraser is back his blackmail approach on the board to have Pagan sacked Mitchell appointed and the sum of three hundred thousand put towards the sacking of Pagan bid failed
3 Hi Greg Williams come out we can see you
The other member of the sack Pagan bid Fraser Williams and Gleeson great players but that doesn’t allow you the rite to blackmail boards
4 Richard Pratt maybe he could bring his close friends John Elliott and Wes Lofts after all that’s what friends are for
5 Finally John Elliotts puppet what was his name the bloke Elliott rolled out to take over from him and lead us forward
Yes he his back lets hope he has learned to speak and not walk out crying like the last time he stood to address the members
So no Smorgon and no Williams Brown Elliott ticket
Where doe that leave us
Good things come to those who wait there is another ticket being formed the president position being filled by a high profile business man that will lead from the front
Who wont allow the board to rule decisions based on egos and dictatorship
This ticket will be announced late Feb and hopefully is the answer to what we all want
Carlton moving forward
All Carlton members please make sure you can vote and do so
As I said at the start your opinions are welcome I wont get into agreements here I am lucky to be trusted with this information and choose to share it with Carlton members who may not see what is really taking place down there or who may believe the we are family line
Your opinions are welcome but please respect mine
Over to you all

 

[gandaal]

Have to ask, what has Smorgon exactly done that caused all this angst and anger?

Sure he's got poor PR skills. Sure he's fronting a disunified board, which was partly the fault of members because in the last election we voted out his supporters and voted in people who had opposing views or kept people who are just plain incompetent (Diggins). Sure he should've tried to handle the Pagan thing better.

But other than that?

Lets be honest here, Carlton is in deep ******** financially and has been long before Elliot was kicked out on his arse. That wasn't going to change over night and its likely, unless we get some serious help, that fact won't change for at least another five years whoever happens to be president.

Lets not attack and harass one of the few big wig financial backers Carlton had who actually loved his club enough spend his free time trying to help the club and one of the few people who actually put his hand in his own pocket to help the club out.

That's all I wanted to say.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

Lara Bingle = AFL Conspiracy.

 

[Blue Thunder]

Have to ask, what has Smorgon exactly done that caused all this angst and anger?

Sure he's got poor PR skills. Sure he's fronting a disunified board, which was partly the fault of members because in the last election we voted out his supporters and voted in people who had opposing views or kept people who are just plain incompetent (Diggins). Sure he should've tried to handle the Pagan thing better.

But other than that?

Lets be honest here, Carlton is in deep ******** financially and has been long before Elliot was kicked out on his arse. That wasn't going to change over night and its likely, unless we get some serious help, that fact won't change for at least another five years whoever happens to be president.

Lets not attack and harass one of the few big wig financial backers Carlton had who actually loved his club enough spend his free time trying to help the club and one of the few people who actually put his hand in his own pocket to help the club out.

That's all I wanted to say.

I respect your diplomacy Gandaal however a couple of points:

1). Lorraine Diggins is certainly not incompetent. The only reason her name is being dragged through the mud by Smorgon is because she questioned the findings of the AFL report and wanted to take issue with Smorgon over it. She supported a push for a change of presidency and CEO as a result and this has caused the bad blood.

She is certainly showing some grit I can tell you.

2). Smorgon is certainly not a big-wig financial backer. Do you know how much money he has put into the club? Not enough and is one of the reasons Mathieson shut up shop as he was not going to be the only big spending director.

Come early March when the new board is elected the AFL debt will be eliminated immediately. A new leader will drag the club out of the depths of despair and back to it's rightful place.

 

[HBF]

Come early March when the new board is elected the AFL debt will be eliminated immediately. A new leader will drag the club out of the depths of despair and back to it's rightful place.

Details BT, details..?

 

[AlecDuncan]

As I have mentioned before I have some close contacts inside the club giving me the information

You know, that worries more than anything else I've read or heard this year.

Good things come to those who wait there is another ticket being formed the president position being filled by a high profile business man that will lead from the front

But not just yet thanks. I wonder which HPBM (it's about time we had an acronym for this) will be denying the rumours in a fortnight's time.

This ticket will be announced late Feb and hopefully is the answer to what we all want

Well, I guess that means the AGM will be set for January.

Hey, if someone finally does organise a ticket with solutions I'll be grateful, but everything I've heard so far has amounted to SFA and leads me to think that Smorgon's rivals aren't any more competent at organising a ticket than the current board is at running the club. And say what you want about Tom Elliott, at least he's had the balls to put his name on the table. No-one else has.

 

[gandaal]

I respect your diplomacy Gandaal however a couple of points:

1). Lorraine Diggins is certainly not incompetent. The only reason her name is being dragged through the mud by Smorgon is because she questioned the findings of the AFL report and wanted to take issue with Smorgon over it. She supported a push for a change of presidency and CEO as a result and this has caused the bad blood.

She is certainly showing some grit I can tell you.

2). Smorgon is certainly not a big-wig financial backer. Do you know how much money he has put into the club? Not enough and is one of the reasons Mathieson shut up shop as he was not going to be the only big spending director.

Come early March when the new board is elected the AFL debt will be eliminated immediately. A new leader will drag the club out of the depths of despair and back to it's rightful place.

How many times have we all heard that? It'll never happen and to be honest I don't think the challange will eventuate either.

As for Diggins I refer you to this topic over at Talking Carlton:

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9579

 

[mediumsizered]

Have to ask, what has Smorgon exactly done that caused all this angst and anger?

Sure he's got poor PR skills. Sure he's fronting a disunified board, which was partly the fault of members because in the last election we voted out his supporters and voted in people who had opposing views or kept people who are just plain incompetent (Diggins). Sure he should've tried to handle the Pagan thing better.

But other than that?

Lets be honest here, Carlton is in deep ******** financially and has been long before Elliot was kicked out on his arse. That wasn't going to change over night and its likely, unless we get some serious help, that fact won't change for at least another five years whoever happens to be president.

Lets not attack and harass one of the few big wig financial backers Carlton had who actually loved his club enough spend his free time trying to help the club and one of the few people who actually put his hand in his own pocket to help the club out.

That's all I wanted to say.

That's some very good points Gandaal. The question I have found myself asking is, why does someone like Graham Smorgon bother? He would be gaining nothing personally from being President of the Carlton Football Club. Goodness knows the Smorgon group of companies doesn't gain anything from having him as President of our club. There are no financial advantages for the Smorgon group to have Graham in such a high profile position. In fact his association with a club that is currently so unsuccessful could only be a negative for the Smorgon group.

Four years ago when we needed a high profile person to lead a ticket against John Elliott, Ian Collins was the only one to actually take on the task. He was always only going to be a short term option due to his workload at the Telstra Dome. When it became apparent that Collo was stretching himself too much (particularly after his heart attack) there was still no high profile candidate to step in & take over the running of our club. Graham Smorgon put his hand up & got the nod. He got handed a poison chalice, though & no one denies he had a nervous start but he has done enough things right in the last couple of months to suggest that with the right board make up he could be a very good president.

Why do we need a high profile president anyway? How many people knew Rod Butterss when he took over the job at St Kilda? Or Gary March at Richmond? How high profile are the presidents of the Crows or the Eagles? Someone like Eddie McGuire might be ideal for Collingwood, but do we need someone like him, to be successful? Are people perhaps proposing someone like Jeff Kennett take on the job?

What difference will it make who is club president if we start winning some games next year? Is it unrealistic to think that if we show enough next season, that we could be looking at 35k+ members in 2008 & perhaps getting towards 40k in 2009, if the improvement continues through 2008. An extra 12000 members (based on our 28k in 2006) by 2009 translates to somewhere between $2.5million & $3 million in additional revenue. With this improvement should come better sponsorships, better attendances at our big money spinning games, as well as at our lesser games. Let's not forget the increase in merchandise sales that comes from being competitive on the field. All this additional revenue would flow no matter who is our president. On-field success = better financial outcomes. Simple, but true.

 

[AlecDuncan]

As for Diggins I refer you to this topic over at Talking Carlton:

It's despairing to consider that their boardroom speculations aren't any better than ours.

 

[BlueWorld]

As for Diggins I refer you to this topic over at Talking Carlton:

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9579

What would any of them know about what really goes on behind the scenes?

 

[Bluebear]

Firstly let me say I appreciate everyone's right to voice their opinion, and for those who purport to have "inside information" for attempting to keep us in the loop. I view all these posts with the greatest of skepticism, due to the fact that they are very easy to manipuate, sound genuine, are always impossible to substantiate except with hindsight, and can lead those who don't ask questions down a merry path.

I would love to take all this for face value DW but I querie the following pieces as evidence that your motives may not be pure:

and now the decision to increase the board to 12 after Smorgon has spent the last three months demanding the board be cut to six

As soon as I heard the board had been increased, not decreased as had been reported as Smorgan's wish, I knew Smorgan would not win.....either way. Tell me exactly how anything could have happenned to the board and he not be painted as a villain.

Board decreases - Smorgan gets his way and is closer to a dictatorship
Board increases - Smorgan now untouchable due to size of ticket.......
Board remans same size - Smorgan increases his numbers etc.......

Give me a break

Shock horror when Denis Pagan wanted Zantuck Kernahan told Pagan he was not to be drafted
On radio that night when all hell broke loose after Denis Pagans comments regarding his hands have been tied Smorgon told all that he had checked with all board members today to double check if the issue was ever spoken about

The fact that Kernahan is on the board and the match committee leaves this situation open to speculation. I heard what Denis said on SEN, and at no time did I think he meant board when he said "they". This was interpreted by the media in conjunction with statements from Ty Zantuck


"I think Fevola, Nick Stevens, yeah, Lance Whitnall — I just heard they went to the board and tried to get it over the line, but from what I can glean, they had it in for me pretty bad, I think. I can see where they're (the board) coming from, but they didn't even, you know, have a talk to me about it."

which are paraphrased and not the most reliable source of info.
Actually he sounds pretty paranoid for a guy that is a two time loser:

"I heard a few blokes at Essendon rang a few blokes at Carlton and told them not to draft me. I heard a million things. At the end of the day, they're all rumours, anyway. I never ever got caught, you know, doing all these things people said I did — I missed a couple of training sessions."

As it turns out EVERYONE involved supports what he said, that the match committee and Wayne Hughes made the call - great....that's their job.


Now you choose to fan the flames without revealing what faction you belong to (although it pretty obvious). Maybe you are being used by a faction, fed mis-information to sway us. Who knows. We can only read and interpret for ourselves.
My interpretation is:
Warnie retires, but the new spin King is among us.

 

[drusswaylander]

As soon as I heard the board had been increased, not decreased as had been reported as Smorgan's wish, I knew Smorgan would not win.....either way. Tell me exactly how anything could have happenned to the board and he not be painted as a villain.


Board decreases - Smorgan gets his way and is closer to a dictatorship
Board increases - Smorgan now untouchable due to size of ticket.......
Board remans same size - Smorgan increases his numbers etc.......

Give me a break

There is substance to what you say mate, but there really was a wrong answer here and Smorgon chose that door.

Unfortunately it shows that he is not just a poor media handler he is awful at it

By choosing what was behind door number three he opened himself up to so many more options to attack him. Rightly or wrongly he is seen as doing a backflip on Pagan, now he is seen as doing the same on board numbers. It is all about perception and of the three options available to him this was the one that would paint him in the worst possible light.

No matter what the reality is, how could this not be seen as Smorgon attempting to shore up his own position with the added bonus of a perceived flip flop The backhander at Elliott also helped give legs to another story and then dismissing it as an off the cuff remark on SEN just added to the fun.

I totally agree that some posters are blowing smoke out of their proverbial and a few downright porkies are being told, but Smorgon is really...really bad at relating to the media and the general public. I will admit I don't think Smorgon is a good president, but he is making it way too easy for the membership to vote him out. That is unfortunate in that a better alternative is yet to emerge and I would hate us to vote in some duffers just because they aren't Smorgon

Our powerbrokers have not shown any indication that they are the types to forgive and forget so no matter what happens we all lose because we alienate one faction or another that could help us out of the mire.

 

[avid blue supporter]

Have to ask, what has Smorgon exactly done that caused all this angst and anger?

Sure he's got poor PR skills. Sure he's fronting a disunified board, which was partly the fault of members because in the last election we voted out his supporters and voted in people who had opposing views or kept people who are just plain incompetent (Diggins). Sure he should've tried to handle the Pagan thing better.

But other than that?

Lets be honest here, Carlton is in deep ******** financially and has been long before Elliot was kicked out on his arse. That wasn't going to change over night and its likely, unless we get some serious help, that fact won't change for at least another five years whoever happens to be president.

Lets not attack and harass one of the few big wig financial backers Carlton had who actually loved his club enough spend his free time trying to help the club and one of the few people who actually put his hand in his own pocket to help the club out.

That's all I wanted to say.

How do you know Carlton was in deep dodaas when Elliot was in charge. If you remember back to 2002, all the crap that was going on was because, all of a sudden, after a stack of injuries Carlton was suddenly on the bottom and everybody was up in arms blaming Elliot, Brittain and anybody else that happened to walk past the Club. That rabble the "unoffical selection committee" were at the forefront advocating change. No mention of any financial problems was made by anyone - it was all about our performance and whose fault it was! And where have the "unofficial selection committee" been lately now that we are not going so well?

The first anyone heard of financial problems was when Collins got in and suddenly the debt on the Legends stand became a major issue and was going to threaten the Club. Well hello, the stand had been built for 5 / 6 years and Carlton had never missed a payment. Noone was saying we were in the financial sh*t until Collins came along.

Why did it suddenly become a problem for Collins. If the Club continued to play games at Optus, then we would be able to service and repay the debt. There was no issue.

It became an issue because Collins' main aim was to get us to Telstra. To do this he (with the conivance of Demitriou) suddely found the debt onerous and wrote off the complete Staduim loan (creating a massive accounting loss for the Club) on the basis that there would be no play at Optus Oval - complete and utter bullsh*t accounting.

What happens next- there is a concerted campaign by Collins to get us to Telstra (which the AFL, owning TD is happy to go along with) and all of a sudden wer'e playing games at TD and the social club goes broke. That's real rocket science to understand isn't it?

The social club which had been a hugh cash cow for the Club over many years suddenly has no customers and suprise,suprise goes broke, meaning even less money to help pay the bills. Collins was anbsolute jerk who didn't give a rat's tosser what happened to the Club as long as he got them to TD.

He is the person to blame for the current financial mess we are in. And also, don't forget he was the one who gave Pagan the 2 year extension ($600k p.a) to his contract when Pagan still had a year of his existing 3 years deal to run. Elliot had nothing to do with this. Also, name one positive thing Collins actually said about the Club when he was in charge, I can't remember anything.

In addition, after Collins managed to upset just about everybody connected with the Club (sponsors, officials, players, etc) he was given the boot and Smorgon took over. What a success that has been.

Elliot and Lofts might have made some mistakes and probably stayed around to long, but look at what happened over the 20 years they were around - 2 flags, 5 GF appearances and in the finals for all bar about 3 or 4 years. We had and expected success.

Look at what has happened since Collins and Smorgan took over. We have become and absolute laughing stock of the league, The AFL has got its hands on us, the Media can't wait to have a shot at us and we have a Board that leaks like a sieve and can't agree what time it is or what day it is, let alone running the Club and putting a statergy in place to get us back to the top again.

The last 5 years have been an absolute f*cking disaster and in my view you can put the blame squarely on Collins who never tried to fight the AFL on the draft penalties, gave up all the players whose names had not been mentioned and the f*cked the Social Club ( and Carlton) by orchestrating the move to TD. Smorgan and the Board has further componded the problem by their total and utter incompetence.

Bring on the new elections and lets see if we can get a Board with ability, drive and the balls to take on the AFL and the other clubs to finally get some respect back into the place and get us back on top where we belong.

We are getting a list to die for so lets not let anyone f*ck it up.:

 

[BlueWorld]

You conveniently fail to mention the $1mill fine Elliott left us with for cheating the salary cap, the under the table payments to players, building the Legends stand against AFL advice....

 

[gandaal]

How do you know Carlton was in deep dodaas when Elliot was in charge. If you remember back to 2002, all the crap that was going on was because, all of a sudden, after a stack of injuries Carlton was suddenly on the bottom and everybody was up in arms blaming Elliot, Brittain and anybody else that happened to walk past the Club. That rabble the "unoffical selection committee" were at the forefront advocating change. No mention of any financial problems was made by anyone - it was all about our performance and whose fault it was! And where have the "unofficial selection committee" been lately now that we are not going so well?

The first anyone heard of financial problems was when Collins got in and suddenly the debt on the Legends stand became a major issue and was going to threaten the Club. Well hello, the stand had been built for 5 / 6 years and Carlton had never missed a payment. Noone was saying we were in the financial sh*t until Collins came along.

Are you really that clueless?

Just because Elliot wasn't admitting that the club was a financial ruin doesn't mean that the club wasn't a financial ruin. We first heard about the financial problems when Collo came to power because up until Collo and co got a hold of the books nobody outside of Elliot and his fellow swindlers knew we had a problem, and the situation was so bad the only choice Collo had was to reveal the dire situation the club was in and seek help from its supporters. Help which didn't really appear other than the obvious boost in membership.

In many ways its a pity we didn't win that first wooden spoon earlier.

 

[drusswaylander]

And also, don't forget he was the one who gave Pagan the 2 year extension ($600k p.a) to his contract when Pagan still had a year of his existing 3 years deal to run. Elliot had nothing to do with this.

Yep we extended Pagan's contract at a lower wage than his original contract. I wonder who first signed him up? I really don't know why you keep on bringing up this point to bolster your argument?

I agree that Collo's board did not seem to have a plan help the Social club make the move, but mate why are you sugarcoating the past?

Elliott was able to cover any shortfall with his own cash, but he just didn't have money anymore. As a stand alone business we were not a viable entity Our recruiting policy of we don't rebuild at Carlton may have had a tiny bit to do with our problems. The draft has totally changed the AFL landscape and we didn't adapt.

You have gone from in earlier posts conceding that the Elliott regime had some things that they did wrong to totally absolving them of any part in our problems

Are you Big Jack himself? If you are mate. I would just like to say that you did some great things for the club, but you lost the plot in your final years and undid a lot of your earlier good work.

 

[mediumsizered]

:

Elliot and Lofts might have made some mistakes and probably stayed around to long, but look at what happened over the 20 years they were around - 2 flags, 5 GF appearances and in the finals for all bar about 3 or 4 years. We had and expected success.


The last 5 years have been an absolute f*cking disaster and in my view you can put the blame squarely on Collins who never tried to fight the AFL on the draft penalties, gave up all the players whose names had not been mentioned and the f*cked the Social Club ( and Carlton) by orchestrating the move to TD. Smorgan and the Board has further componded the problem by their total and utter incompetence.

[/B]

Let's get a couple of things into perspective. Yes we won 2 flags in the 20 years of Elliott's presidency. We also missed the finals 7 times, not 3-4 & between 1989 & 1998 only made 3 finals appearances. In the 15 seasons prior to Elliott's presidency, we won 6 premierships & only missed the finals on 3 occasions (1971, 1974 & 1977). John Elliott was an '80s man & refused to move into the 21st Century.

With respect to fighting the draft penalties. There is little doubt that we would have had a win in the courts, but at what cost? As much as many of us Carlton supporters hated the arrival of the draft & salary cap at the end of 1986, it is these very same rules that will ensure the survival of the Carlton Football Club. Rest assured that if we had challenged the rules & won, as we would have, that would have spelled the end of some of the Victorian clubs &, given our current precarious situation, we may well have been one of them. Unlike the early years of the draft & salary cap, our club is no longer one of the richest or most powerful clubs in the AFL & we would be absolutely crushed by the wealthy Eagles, Crows, Magpies & Bombers, if not for socialism AFL style (it pains me to have to admit this).

We may seem to be lurching from crisis to crisis, but some of these so called crises are in the minds of those who seek to destabilise our club & it is damn easy to destabilise a club that still has $8 million debt (down from the $12 million that your beloved J D Elliott left behind) & has experienced the worst on-field performances since our early years in the VFL. Those on-field performances are not the fault of Collo, either. Just refer back to the thread "Debuts between 1996 & 2003" to get some idea as to why our on-field performances have well & truly sucked in the last 4 years.

 

[HBF]

Just refer back to the thread "Debuts between 1996 & 2003" to get some idea as to why our on-field performances have well & truly sucked in the last 4 years.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here MS. Our recruiting has plain out sucked for the best part of a decade, and i think it's pretty well known that Shane O'Sullivan was our recruiting man for the majority of this time.

He fair dinkum lived off the kudos of getting Kernahan, Bradley, Motley and Dorotich to the club in '86, when we just went out and "bought" them. He has pretty much done nothing since, and it was a great day when he got booted out of that position.

 

[drusswaylander]

Let's get a couple of things into perspective. Yes we won 2 flags in the 20 years of Elliott's presidency. We also missed the finals 7 times, not 3-4 & between 1989 & 1998 only made 3 finals appearances. In the 15 seasons prior to Elliott's presidency, we won 6 premierships & only missed the finals on 3 occasions (1971, 1974 & 1977). John Elliott was an '80s man & refused to move into the 21st Century.

With respect to fighting the draft penalties. There is little doubt that we would have had a win in the courts, but at what cost? As much as many of us Carlton supporters hated the arrival of the draft & salary cap at the end of 1986, it is these very same rules that will ensure the survival of the Carlton Football Club. Rest assured that if we had challenged the rules & won, as we would have, that would have spelled the end of some of the Victorian clubs &, given our current precarious situation, we may well have been one of them. Unlike the early years of the draft & salary cap, our club is no longer one of the richest or most powerful clubs in the AFL & we would be absolutely crushed by the wealthy Eagles, Crows, Magpies & Bombers, if not for socialism AFL style (it pains me to have to admit this).

We may seem to be lurching from crisis to crisis, but some of these so called crises are in the minds of those who seek to destabilise our club & it is damn easy to destabilise a club that still has $8 million debt (down from the $12 million that your beloved J D Elliott left behind) & has experienced the worst on-field performances since our early years in the VFL. Those on-field performances are not the fault of Collo, either. Just refer back to the thread "Debuts between 1996 & 2003" to get some idea as to why our on-field performances have well & truly sucked in the last 4 years.

Well said mate

 

[Bluebear]

The first anyone heard of financial problems was when Collins got in and suddenly the debt on the Legends stand became a major issue and was going to threaten the Club. Well hello, the stand had been built for 5 / 6 years and Carlton had never missed a payment. Noone was saying we were in the financial sh*t until Collins came along.

Why did it suddenly become a problem for Collins. If the Club continued to play games at Optus, then we would be able to service and repay the debt. There was no issue.

It became an issue because Collins' main aim was to get us to Telstra. To do this he (with the conivance of Demitriou) suddely found the debt onerous and wrote off the complete Staduim loan (creating a massive accounting loss for the Club) on the basis that there would be no play at Optus Oval - complete and utter bullsh*t accounting.

What happens next- there is a concerted campaign by Collins to get us to Telstra (which the AFL, owning TD is happy to go along with) and all of a sudden wer'e playing games at TD and the social club goes broke. That's real rocket science to understand isn't it?

The social club which had been a hugh cash cow for the Club over many years suddenly has no customers and suprise,suprise goes broke, meaning even less money to help pay the bills. Collins was anbsolute jerk who didn't give a rat's tosser what happened to the Club as long as he got them to TD.

Just a couple of corrections to your re-writing of history here mate.
You're right when you say that no-one heard of our problems before Collo came along.........Big Jack never discussed real business in public, and never accepted any responsibility for the dirty laundry he left behind.

The Legends stand........are you really going to hold this up and say its Collo's fault.........LMFAO.........
Elliot wanted it built so that when he pushed for Waverly to be shut down (and he pushed constantly and very hard) that Princes Park would be the second main stadium in Melbourne behind the MCG. He had two problems......capacity and lights. The AFL told him that the local council would never allow him to put in lights good enough (on able to stay on late enough) to host night games, so don't bother filling criteria number 2 (capacity) as you'll waste your money.

He ignored this (as pointed out), wasn't able to "convince" local council to allow the lights and time wise to have them on........and the rest is history.
The AFL loook for a second venue that can host night games, Ch 7 build docklands. AFL moves other teams home games away from PP, and now us a sole tenants can no longer afford the bills, regardless of where we play our home games. Collo saved our arse by orgainising TD. Other teams were never coming back to PP and we would have continued to sink further into debt.
I concede that it has affected the social club, but this has little to do with home game venues and more to do with marketing (IMO). I have a mate who is a Hawks member, and joins a lively social club at Waverly....no home games, just training and nice facilities etc.
Yes, the current board is as much to blame for the current situation with the social club but don't mention the Legends stand again

 

[avid blue supporter]

Just a couple of corrections to your re-writing of history here mate.
You're right when you say that no-one heard of our problems before Collo came along.........Big Jack never discussed real business in public, and never accepted any responsibility for the dirty laundry he left behind.

The Legends stand........are you really going to hold this up and say its Collo's fault.........LMFAO.........
Elliot wanted it built so that when he pushed for Waverly to be shut down (and he pushed constantly and very hard) that Princes Park would be the second main stadium in Melbourne behind the MCG. He had two problems......capacity and lights. The AFL told him that the local council would never allow him to put in lights good enough (on able to stay on late enough) to host night games, so don't bother filling criteria number 2 (capacity) as you'll waste your money.

He ignored this (as pointed out), wasn't able to "convince" local council to allow the lights and time wise to have them on........and the rest is history.
The AFL loook for a second venue that can host night games, Ch 7 build docklands. AFL moves other teams home games away from PP, and now us a sole tenants can no longer afford the bills, regardless of where we play our home games. Collo saved our arse by orgainising TD. Other teams were never coming back to PP and we would have continued to sink further into debt.
I concede that it has affected the social club, but this has little to do with home game venues and more to do with marketing (IMO). I have a mate who is a Hawks member, and joins a lively social club at Waverly....no home games, just training and nice facilities etc.
Yes, the current board is as much to blame for the current situation with the social club but don't mention the Legends stand again

Your point is noted and lets make it clear I am not defending Elliot. He bent the rules and got caught as did a number of other clubs.


However, on the point of the Legends Stand, Elliot got the ok from Graeme Samual to build it to raise our profile, then halfway through its construction the AFL suddenly decides to build TD. What was Elliot to do then - stop and leave a half constructed stadium. Also there was never a problem with the stand or the crowds when we were winning the crowds started to drop off when the side fell apart in 2002/3.

From the very outset of him taking over, Collins made sure the every negative aspect about Optus was highlighted and constantly was on about the need to move. What people seem to forget is that the MCG offered Carlton a great deal (better than that offered by TD) to play 8 or 10 home games at the "g". What happened next, the AFL says to Carlton " you can accept the MCC offer we won't guarantee to schedule matches at the "g" and, besides here is $1 million to go to TD". So don't tell me there wasn't a plan in place to get Carlton out of Optus and to TD.

Further, have a look at the board Collins put in place and how many lasted the distance. I think Diggins, Smorgan and Rose might be all that are left.

Anyway all of the above is basically water under the bridge and yesterday's news. My view or your view is worth diddly squat.

What's done is done and done and can't be changed. But just remember that the Victors always write history in their own favour and this is what Collins and Smorgan have done to justify their actions. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

What matters now is that we don't f*ck up the opportunity we now have as a result of the drafting opportunities over the last 2/3 years.

I was at training this morning and to see the development of the boys. Murphy looks sensational, seems to have put on plenty of muscle around the hips and is like lightning off the mark. Gibbs is nearly as tall as Kouta and is smooth as silk. The list goes on.

We have the making of a list to die for and we now have to make sure that we get a united Board to set the standard for the Club. If Tom Elliot or anybody else is able make a valid contribution to our ongoing success, then they should be welcomed with open arms. Their name should not prevent becoming part of our great club.

Onward and upward for the mighty Blues.

 

[drusswaylander]

Your point is noted and lets make it clear I am not defending Elliot. He bent the rules and got caught as did a number of other clubs.


However, on the point of the Legends Stand, Elliot got the ok from Graeme Samual to build it to raise our profile, then halfway through its construction the AFL suddenly decides to build TD. What was Elliot to do then - stop and leave a half constructed stadium. Also there was never a problem with the stand or the crowds when we were winning the crowds started to drop off when the side fell apart in 2002/3.

From the very outset of him taking over, Collins made sure the every negative aspect about Optus was highlighted and constantly was on about the need to move. What people seem to forget is that the MCG offered Carlton a great deal (better than that offered by TD) to play 8 or 10 home games at the "g". What happened next, the AFL says to Carlton " you can accept the MCC offer we won't guarantee to schedule matches at the "g" and, besides here is $1 million to go to TD". So don't tell me there wasn't a plan in place to get Carlton out of Optus and to TD.

Further, have a look at the board Collins put in place and how many lasted the distance. I think Diggins, Smorgan and Rose might be all that are left.

Anyway all of the above is basically water under the bridge and yesterday's news. My view or your view is worth diddly squat.

What's done is done and done and can't be changed. But just remember that the Victors always write history in their own favour and this is what Collins and Smorgan have done to justify their actions. The truth is probably somewhere in between.

What matters now is that we don't f*ck up the opportunity we now have as a result of the drafting opportunities over the last 2/3 years.

I was at training this morning and to see the development of the boys. Murphy looks sensational, seems to have put on plenty of muscle around the hips and is like lightning off the mark. Gibbs is nearly as tall as Kouta and is smooth as silk. The list goes on.

We have the making of a list to die for and we now have to make sure that we get a united Board to set the standard for the Club. If Tom Elliot or anybody else is able make a valid contribution to our ongoing success, then they should be welcomed with open arms. Their name should not prevent becoming part of our great club.

Onward and upward for the mighty Blues.

We would move on ABS and I agree our playing list has the potential to be brilliant, but you keep on bringing up and trying to revise the past

Elliott did not bend the rules he broke them. Other clubs broke the rules as well, but we were by far the worst.

The suburban ground as a concept was dead so no matter who approved it building the Legends stand was a mistake and is now a major millstone around our neck. Both their view on PP and the salary cap was evidence that they were still living in a bygone era rather than adapting to the times.

At a football club you should never just have a plan A. Under Elliott we could only keep our head above water as long as we stayed very successful on-field. It is always easier to generate revenue when you are winning, but Elliott had put us in the position that if we started to lose we would lose money hand over fist.

Lets examine why our team fell apart. It was Elliotts recruiting policy of not rebuilding that failed to regenerate our side and left it a brittle shell when he left. Under Big Jack we were not just a little bit over the salary cap we were 1.2 million over How do you think it would have impacted on morale with the players having to take paycuts. We were also forced to offload players to try and get under the salary cap. Don't underestimate the need to get under the cap in why we had to get rid of players. There is also the little thing of draft penalties

Even if we take out everything else, Big Jack was a prime reason for our on-field problems

Moving to the "G" rather than Telstra still wouldn't have helped us as our on-field performance was so poor we would have been losing money every game. Moving to the "G" would not have helped our social club, because as I have conceded the Collins regime didn't have a plan to keep it healthy. So the "G" or Telstra would not have made a difference with that aspect of our plight. The "G" was only viable if we stayed powerful on-field and the previous regime had ensured that we couldn't

I think the part of your post that I have highlighted indicates why you have been pushing this line I couldn't agree more that we need a United board and a united club, but I think the ousted powerbrokers from the old regime need to remember that as well. They still seem to have big axes to grind and are out to settle old scores rather than work towards the success of the CFC that they profess to love.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Let's get a couple of things into perspective. Yes we won 2 flags in the 20 years of Elliott's presidency. We also missed the finals 7 times, not 3-4 & between 1989 & 1998 only made 3 finals appearances. In the 15 seasons prior to Elliott's presidency, we won 6 premierships & only missed the finals on 3 occasions (1971, 1974 & 1977). John Elliott was an '80s man & refused to move into the 21st Century.

With respect to fighting the draft penalties. There is little doubt that we would have had a win in the courts, but at what cost? As much as many of us Carlton supporters hated the arrival of the draft & salary cap at the end of 1986, it is these very same rules that will ensure the survival of the Carlton Football Club. Rest assured that if we had challenged the rules & won, as we would have, that would have spelled the end of some of the Victorian clubs &, given our current precarious situation, we may well have been one of them. Unlike the early years of the draft & salary cap, our club is no longer one of the richest or most powerful clubs in the AFL & we would be absolutely crushed by the wealthy Eagles, Crows, Magpies & Bombers, if not for socialism AFL style (it pains me to have to admit this).

We may seem to be lurching from crisis to crisis, but some of these so called crises are in the minds of those who seek to destabilise our club & it is damn easy to destabilise a club that still has $8 million debt (down from the $12 million that your beloved J D Elliott left behind) & has experienced the worst on-field performances since our early years in the VFL. Those on-field performances are not the fault of Collo, either. Just refer back to the thread "Debuts between 1996 & 2003" to get some idea as to why our on-field performances have well & truly sucked in the last 4 years.

I would guess you'd be one of about 3 Carlton supporters around the country that thinks things are ok at Carlton. Guess you like the taste of sand though. We are a rabble, complete and utter, from the Board (who are dreadful) down to the coach (who is worse). Probably the only thing that's half reasonable there is, funnily enough, the playing list, but that'll go no-where the way we are. We need to clean out the lot and start again so the club and find some sort of stability and give us some hope. We're are complete, fractured mess right now. Surely, even the likes of you can now see that!!

 

[mediumsizered]

I would guess you'd be one of about 3 Carlton supporters around the country that thinks things are ok at Carlton. Guess you like the taste of sand though. We are a rabble, complete and utter, from the Board (who are dreadful) down to the coach (who is worse). Probably the only thing that's half reasonable there is, funnily enough, the playing list, but that'll go no-where the way we are. We need to clean out the lot and start again so the club and find some sort of stability and give us some hope. We're are complete, fractured mess right now. Surely, even the likes of you can now see that!!

Where did I say things are ok at Carlton. If you have read my post you will have noticed that I was just putting some facts on the record. Facts that are conveniently forgotten by those who still think that John Elliott was the messiah (he was actually a very naughty boy). Any future participation by anyone associated with him must be discouraged. If that means we are stuck with the current board, well so be it. Our club could not stand another dose of Elliott medicine. Carlton Football Club, Water Wheel, denial isn't the answer.

 

[Bluebear]

Where did I say things are ok at Carlton. If you have read my post you will have noticed that I was just putting some facts on the record. Facts that are conveniently forgotten by those who still think that John Elliott was the messiah (he was actually a very naughty boy). Any future participation by anyone associated with him must be discouraged. If that means we are stuck with the current board, well so be it. Our club could not stand another dose of Elliott medicine. Carlton Football Club, Water Wheel, denial isn't the answer.

Nice one centurian.