Collingwood's midfield- the problem

[Old Spice]

Deffinately agree with this. As I think you mentioned we have a situation where we have a number of young players who are pushing hard for selection but unable to push into the side on the other hand we have a number of senior players who when asked too could not get the job done.

Obviously finals is not the time to be introducing this kind of system but I think this years finals and the good lead up and slight excitment (being flag favourites etc) should be used as a further reason to up the bar. In terms of we are aiming for the flag. This is what we feel is needed from each player to get that, if your not able to deliver your out and someone else gets a shot until we are able to find a balance of guys who are going to get the job done week in week out.

It takes out the romance / hope factor and puts it on a 'scientific' footing. Our intensity and defensive pressure was absolutely zilcho yesterday across the board.

That the Saints had 100 odd extra possessions plus more tackles is really deplorable and some players who think they keep a spot for some frilly displays need to think again.

 

[danielnajdek]

i thought MM was a bit rough on Sidebbottom, JMac and Beams by chucking them in the centre in a qualifying final and expecting them to beat Hayes, Dal Santo and Montagna. They are only first and second year players. Should be up to Swan, O'Bree and Lockyer to take the pressure of the young guys. I thought the older guys were disappointing and expected much more

 

[halfman_halfroo]

collingwoods midfield.

 

[The Norm]

Sounds like Geoff Walsh is saying Ryan Cook might be coming in.

Please no.

 

[Trojan82]

I just posted this in the Josh Fraser thread however it makes more sense here....

Wallsy tonight suggested that the loss of Brad Scott could well be playing a role in our late form lapse in the midfield. Wallsy talks crap most of the time but something about this makes sense to me.

 

[alfiiee]

Wood in and Fraser up forward is all i want to see happen. We can't lose if this set up takes place. Fraser could be a gun chf/ff. When he had stints in his earlier days he was kicking 3-4 goals.

Ever since the loss of Brad Scott our midfield has not functioned properly at all.

 

[shawthing09]

Wood in and Fraser up forward is all i want to see happen. We can't lose if this set up takes place. Fraser could be a gun chf/ff. When he had stints in his earlier days he was kicking 3-4 goals.

Ever since the loss of Brad Scott our midfield has not functioned properly at all.

See generational change thread for good explanations of why Fraser is not a foward

 

[lgarth80]

Our intensity and defensive pressure was absolutely zilcho yesterday across the board.

I respectfully disagree that our pressure was down to zero the whole game.

It was right up there for the first term, and much of the 2nd. Then we were ground down by a more mature (age and games), fitter (stronger bodies), more confident and well drilled (20-2) team.

The umpiring early (11-4) and some fortunate decisions in front of goal for St Kilda meant that the Pies used early intensity and came in at half time down by 2 goals (if only Riewoldt had missed clutch shots from 50+) instead of ahead, with all the emotional energy this gives you.

A man down, two goals down, and conceding the first of the third cost the game. Saints to their credit played the big moments well, and appeared to have a bit in reserve, even though they got 2 late junk time goals to under-performers Milne and Eddy.

I'd suggest the injury to Pendlebury hurt on two fronts - first being lack of rotations, second being the loss of a class mid.

The lack of rotations (3/4 of our normal output) meant our burst players struggled to get the time to recharge and get back in the fray.

Didak - burst player
Swan - burst player
Davis - burst player
Thomas - burst player
At their current stage in development, JMac and Sidebottom struggle to carry a long stint on the ground - can generally only be burst players (Steele will change in future, JMac is the ultimate burst player)
Johnson at his best is a burst player using speed to break lines

Pendlebury though is not a burst player, but one who whirrs at the same level all day. Losing him cost a critical resource who doesn't suffer lulls in intensity. When we get the balance right, and don't need to spend emotional energy getting back into a game we should already be winning, it will help a lot.

We can't afford to trail Adelaide unneccessarily, particularly with the 6 day break.

We need to have a better mix of burst players and "go all day" players in the middle. It's the sum of all parts, plus some needed luck on the injury front that will go a long way to improving our situation.

Also it'd be interesting to see if we could get Leon back to playing his give and go Gary Ablett Jr style of game he put out in the early games of the year. We could really use his class of the back edge of the square mopping up the ball and sending it forward constructively via the wings, as St Kilda did time and again after half-time.

 

[Trojan82]

Swan - burst player

I agree with most of your post. In fact it was refreshing to read what I had been thinking.....however this was a surprise.

Isn't he defined as the ultimate workhorse? Doesn't he give and give and give? Isn't he incredibly hard to tag because of how hard he works? In fact isn't he described from all supporters as having one of the biggest tanks in the game?

 

[mattys123]

Also it'd be interesting to see if we could get Leon back to playing his give and go Gary Ablett Jr style of game he put out in the early games of the year. We could really use his class of the back edge of the square mopping up the ball and sending it forward constructively via the wings, as St Kilda did time and again after half-time.

With Leon, does anyone feel he is carrying an injury, because for some reason he hasn't been used as much in the midfield for the second half of the year.

Yesterday, I'd say Leon spent more time inside and around forward 50 then in the midfield, something that was reversed when he was in such good form early in the year.

 

[lgarth80]

I agree with most of your post. In fact it was refreshing to read what I had been thinking.....however this was a surprise.

Isn't he defined as the ultimate workhorse? Doesn't he give and give and give? Isn't he incredibly hard to tag because of how hard he works? In fact isn't he described from all supporters as having one of the biggest tanks in the game?

Ah yes but Swan interestingly enough has been one who traditionally goes off for a rest, then runs in bursts.

His efforts in getting the ball during these periods are legendary, but to be honest even the great Dane Swan doesn't stay on for long periods of time - he is the great beneficiary of the Magpies rotation system. Swan has been untaggable because not many players can keep up with him in his time on the ground.

Regardless, yes I agree, Swan is one of the real gut running players of the competition. He has taken "the Cousins" to almost another level this year, and in many ways I see a link to rotations.

On that, I was mighty annoyed that we were not really able to break the Saints tags placed on Davis/Didak through the bench, which is generally how we like to work things.

Rotations - people may question its relevance, but when you look at the games the Pies have struggled, it's when there's an injured player on the bench (or more) who cannot contribute. Dogs (Game I), Sydney and Brisbane were gutsy against the odds wins that you won't get against Cats and Saints in September...maybe even Dogs.

 

[alfiiee]

See generational change thread for good explanations of why Fraser is not a foward

link? lol

 

[lgarth80]

With Leon, does anyone feel he is carrying an injury, because for some reason he hasn't been used as much in the midfield for the second half of the year.

Probably but if ever there was a time and an opponent to roll the dice and take them on it's against the Crows this week. It's time to fire, Davis and Didak.

We need a 22 man, backs-to-the-wall performance, rotations central to the punishing game plan.

A win, and we get the crack at Geelong in a do-or-die game, which could truly be death or glory. A Cats team that have a few players maybe a touch underdone, and could be a touch jittery under the MCG lights.

I still have a sneaking suspicion the flag will come from the Collingwood-Adelaide-Geelong side of the finals.

There are small question marks around the Saints, Dogs and Lions.

Saints - can they handle the crushing pressure of only one flag?
Dogs - ditto, particularly with no key forwards to speak of
Lions - will be gone this week so who cares

As distinct from:
Geelong - been there, done that, can do it again, have the fire
Adelaide - super professional team, with players with the know-how
Collingwood - at their best (which is still possible to see again) the ultimate team at applying crushing pressure all over the ground

Beat the Crows first. Team first all the way, go in lower and harder, run your guts out and don't stop.

That means all members of the 22, no exceptions.

 

[halfman_halfroo]

 

[shawthing09]

link? lol

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=628647&page=2

 

[Old Spice]

When you are 100 possessions behind and also behind the tackle count, that is an absolute indictment.

Burst, shmurst. You play in the team, you apply defensive pressure, whatever other tricks you bring to the table.

I thought the defensive pressure was crap overall.

 

[giantpie]

Midfield got beaten by a more hardened and experienced midfield in the saints.

But the worrying thing is Davis and Didak at times avoided body contact altogether.

Pendlebury is a massive loss.
Swan and Thomas played respectable games.

Should jump back on the horse against the crows. Our problem isnt neccesarily our midfield its some players got intimidated by a better team. Simple

 

[Professor Knowall]

With Leon, does anyone feel he is carrying an injury, because for some reason he hasn't been used as much in the midfield for the second half of the year.

Yesterday, I'd say Leon spent more time inside and around forward 50 then in the midfield, something that was reversed when he was in such good form early in the year.

Yes - he has ligament damage on his ankle which will require post season surgery. Medhurst's ankle is in even worse shape and he may not come up for this Saturday, being just a 6 dy break.

 

[Mental Magpie]

I just posted this in the Josh Fraser thread however it makes more sense here....

Wallsy tonight suggested that the loss of Brad Scott could well be playing a role in our late form lapse in the midfield. Wallsy talks crap most of the time but something about this makes sense to me.

I've been thinking exactly the same thing Trojan. It never made sense to me to get rid of him.

But in saying that; I'm still confident we can overcome the Crows if we bring our "A" game.

COME ON PIES!
SIDE BY SIDE​

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

We have lost our major clearance specialist in Pendlebury. I think we should roll the dice and bring in Stanley and only play him in the middle. There is a huge question mark over this - if Stanley has been slow to pick up the pace of AFL in the H&A games, what hope in a final? He starred last week against ordinary opposition.

What are the alternatives? Maxwell in the middle with e.g Reid brought in but on a HBF to play on Burton (or Goldsack), or even Macaffer, who has looked classy in the VFL bringing the ball out of the backline. Beams looks tired, Sidebottom is not quite ready and O'Bree was appaling last week. Swan can play an inside midfielder but is he better suited to other roles?.

Besides these guys, there's an out of sorts Leon Davis (has he ever played a good final's game?) who is a bit of a liability at present with his field kicking when he happens upon a loose ball. Didak is another whose ability under pressure must be questioned.

Wellingham is not the answer to our midfield problems. He seems to have lost the form he initially displayed and looks too soft to play any kind of meaningful role.

Toovey spent much of last week playing off the lines in the middle, tagging a variety of players - Gram and Del Santo were two that I remember seeing opposed to him. No doubt he will be used in the middle when not matched against a small forward.

Thomas a least shows some spark and is willing to show some initiative. He could be given more work in the midfield to take up some of the slack.

I am sure MM will not bring in Stanley, but I almost believe that some left field thinking is more likely to bring us success against Adelaide than the same old faces recycled. Dick has to come in, but as a small forward, though I fear he may only perform if things are going our way.

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

I agree with most of your post. In fact it was refreshing to read what I had been thinking.....however this was a surprise.

Isn't he defined as the ultimate workhorse? Doesn't he give and give and give? Isn't he incredibly hard to tag because of how hard he works? In fact isn't he described from all supporters as having one of the biggest tanks in the game?

A few weeks back, Swan was the most rotated player in the AFL. This suggests that he is a kind of burst player.