Death Penalty

[QT]

Ok last night in BF chat all of us had a interesting conversation about the death penalty, and should it or shouldnt it exist.

And for the people that dont know, That oklahoma bomber Mcveigh was done with a lethal injection.

I personally am all for it. Why should a man that killed all those lives deserve to live?

What do you's think

 

[Bloodstained Angel]

Thou shalt not kill

and

Two wrongs do not make a right

and

Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord

cheers

 

[sbagman]

Never

QT,

I used to think like that, then I was presented with the facts and I have always been exceptionally anti-death penalty since. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm preaching, but these are my reasons.

1. Are we not as bad as the killers if we take another life? We cannot fight brutality in this world if we are equally brutal.

2. Who has the right to decide if one man lives or dies? If we choose that a criminal does not have the right to live, what about disabled people? Do they have the right to live? NOONE has the right to decide if a man has the right to live.

3. Justice is also about rehabilitation. No rehabilitation is possible if the criminal is dead.

4. Justice is about keeping society safe. Society is just as safe if the criminal is behind bars permanently. Revenge should not play a part in the decision.

5. Contrary to popular belief, the death penalty is MORE expensive than keeping a man behind bars for his entire life.

6. If evidence turns up at a later date proving the criminal is in fact innocent, death cannot be reversed, as far as I know.

7. Although people might think prisoners have it easy in their cells with TV and whatnot, but nothing can atone for the loss of freedom. I think we're kidding ourselves if we think its an easy life in there.

8. Those about to quote the bible, "an eye for an eye", should know that that is NOT the context it is meant to be used in. Another quote: "vengence is mine" (ie God's). For religious folk, God is the only one who can take vengence and judgement, not us.

In summary, I believe very strongly that we would be a sad sort of society if we countered killing with killing.

Never.

 

[RacerX]

I agree with sbagman.

 

[Jars458]

Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone

Death penalty is all about vengance which is a negative and week human emotion.

Compassion and forgiveness should be the virtues we seek to propogate.

A Government who kills its own citizens, is showing that violence is an acceptable solution.

Death penalty is an easy way out for those who don't want to tackle the root causes of crime.

 

[Go South]

Re: Never

Originally posted by sbagman
QT,

I used to think like that, then I was presented with the facts and I have always been exceptionally anti-death penalty since. I hope it doesn't sound like I'm preaching, but these are my reasons.

1. Are we not as bad as the killers if we take another life? We cannot fight brutality in this world if we are equally brutal.

2. Who has the right to decide if one man lives or dies? If we choose that a criminal does not have the right to live, what about disabled people? Do they have the right to live? NOONE has the right to decide if a man has the right to live.

3. Justice is also about rehabilitation. No rehabilitation is possible if the criminal is dead.

4. Justice is about keeping society safe. Society is just as safe if the criminal is behind bars permanently. Revenge should not play a part in the decision.

5. Contrary to popular belief, the death penalty is MORE expensive than keeping a man behind bars for his entire life.

6. If evidence turns up at a later date proving the criminal is in fact innocent, death cannot be reversed, as far as I know.

7. Although people might think prisoners have it easy in their cells with TV and whatnot, but nothing can atone for the loss of freedom. I think we're kidding ourselves if we think its an easy life in there.

8. Those about to quote the bible, "an eye for an eye", should know that that is NOT the context it is meant to be used in. Another quote: "vengence is mine" (ie God's). For religious folk, God is the only one who can take vengence and judgement, not us.

In summary, I believe very strongly that we would be a sad sort of society if we countered killing with killing.

Never.

Wow - they have just summarized my beliefs, and then some - Excellent post there.

I will be saving that

 

[Santos L Helper]

I agree with BSA, Sbagman (Umm whats happening here ) and Jars (Geez I'm in shock) on this one.

Although I believe biblical quotes are not a valid argument against the death penalty, these guys are all correct with their statements.
Surely the death penalty is pre-meditated murder carried out by the state.
It only takes one person to be killed this way, who was innocent, to make this even worse murder. Do we just say 'sorry our mistake'?
The death penalty is not a deterrent against crime.

Anyway, the death penalty is morally wrong and all it does is sanction vengence. And 'vengence is the domain of the weak'.

 

[Santos L Helper]

I subscribe to Michael Moore.com and a short time ago I received this email about an inmate about to be put to death. I found it to be one of the best arguments against the death penalty I have read. It is a long letter, but well worth the read.

'I abhor the death penalty. It is the ultimate act of evil. Not simply because it is the premeditated taking of a human life, but because it is an act of the State, a cold and calculated, sanctioned act done in your name and mine. It reduces all of us to the gutter level of the low-life scum who commit murder for revenge, greed, or fun. Actually, we're worse. Because we, and our elected government, are supposed to be acting with a sense of moral purpose, to seek solutions to conflicts with a rational head, to be an example to our children and the rest of the world that there is a higher purpose to our lives.

Instead, because we detest killing, we kill. Because we think it is wrong to take another's life, we take another's life. We are clueless to the fact that we are the laughing stock of the rest of the civilized world (over 110 countries have outlawed the death penalty since we brought it back 20+ years ago). Yes, we have a right -- a duty -- to protect ourselves from those who would do us harm. That's called locking them up, and in some cases, throwing away the key. If it's punishment we are seeking, then, in addition to life sentences, have them perform functions in prison that benefit the society.

But if we simply want blood, well, I'm sorry, not on my dime and not on my hands. Feeding revenge can only create more sickness in our society. Isn't it enough we have a quarter-billion guns in our homes to prove to the world the level of our unstable behavior?

I come from a state, Michigan, that in 1841 became the first English-speaking government in the world to abolish the death penalty. We are one of only ten states in America that refuse to participate in state-sanctioned murder. All attempts to introduce the death penalty in Michigan have been beaten down by overwhelming margins. Even the right-wingnut governor is anti-death penalty.

Earlier this year, the New York Times did a survey and found that the states that don't have the death penalty have a LOWER murder rate than the states that have capital punishment. That's right -- in 8 of the 10 non-death-penalty states, not only are fewer people killed every year than in places like Texas (which executes its citizens with what seems to be a certain glee), but the murder rates in all 10 of these states have dropped significantly in the last 10 years. Those who say that the death penalty is a "deterrent" should ask why it is that in the kill-happy 40 states you have the greatest chance of losing your life to a murderer on the streets or in the home.

On top of all of this, it is chilling to think of how many innocent people we have put to death. The recent revelations across the country of death row inmates who were falsely convicted -- 11 out of 22 in Illinois alone -- should be reason enough for even those of you who are pro-death-penalty to stop these executions. Who wants to take the chance that even ONE innocent individual is put to death? Who can absolutely guarantee that every single one of the 3000+ people awaiting execution currently in the U.S. is absolutely guilty of his or her crime? If you can't, then you must join with me in calling for a moratorium on the death penalty across the nation. There is no other way.

When I received an email from Michael's relatives asking for my help, it was a bit weird and shocking to see a subject heading that read, "MICHAEL MOORE TO BE EXECUTED MARCH 28." They asked that I help them stop his execution. I said I would. I do not care about Michael's guilt or innocence as I write this. For all I know he's guilty as guilty can be. But that is not the point. The point is that WE must not be the guilty ones in condoning the taking of HIS life. I realize this is a very long shot, stopping his execution. This new governor of Texas is cut from the same bloody cloth as his predecessor. It brought no solace in the campaign last year to see Bush's opponent, Mr. Gore, enthusiastically endorse not only the death penalty, but Bush's mass executions during his 6 years as governor. And we all remember an eager Bill Clinton who interrupted his 1992 campaign for president to rush back to Arkansas to preside over the execution of a ******ed man.

No, I don't have much hope. And it's not just the politicians from the two sides of our one-party system. It's the American people. Whereas on virtually every other issue -- the environment, the need for labor unions, a woman's right to choose, etcetera -- every poll shows the majority of the American public taking the liberal/progressive position, it is on this one issue of the death penalty where the majority of Americans still sides with the right wing. But that support has dropped from 70% to 57% in the last two years. People are wising up to the randomness and injustice of this heinous act. Perhaps there's some hope.

In the meantime, would you take a second and send a letter to Governor Perry on Michael Moore's behalf. You can do so by clicking one of the URLs below, or by going to The Nation's website, where they have a letter already prepared.

No human being should be killed in our name...or my name!'

 

[sbagman]

Mmm. Yes.

Santos, why are you surprised we agree?

 

[Go South]

Originally posted by Santos L Helper
*snip*

Thanks for the excellent article - I forwarded it to a few friends/rellies by email.

 

[Dave]

Re: Never

Originally posted by sbagman

A few thoughts.... nothing personal so please don't take offense

1. Are we not as bad as the killers if we take another life?

No, as they take the life of the innocent. Capital punishment is not the same as the cold blooded murder of the type TM carried out.

2. Who has the right to decide if one man lives or dies?

We, society does, just as we have the right to decide if they go to jail, get probation etc etc etc.

If we choose that a criminal does not have the right to live, what about disabled people? Do they have the right to live?

Yes, as being disabled is not something that they have chosen to be. Murderers make a choice, a choice that in some countries has consequences.

NOONE has the right to decide if a man has the right to live.

Well that's an opinion that's fairly widely debated

3. Justice is also about rehabilitation.

Justice is also about punishment.

No rehabilitation is possible if the criminal is dead.

Some criminals are beyond rehabilitation.

4. Justice is about keeping society safe. Society is just as safe if the criminal is behind bars permanently.

Until they break out Or get paroled, as happens too often in this country. If they're dead it's a little hard for them to kill again.

Revenge should not play a part in the decision.

Agreed, though it's easy for us to say this when we aren't involved.

5. Contrary to popular belief, the death penalty is MORE expensive than keeping a man behind bars for his entire life.

Yep, though cost should not be an issue when it comes to justice. We should be aiming for the best system, not the cheapest.

6. If evidence turns up at a later date proving the criminal is in fact innocent, death cannot be reversed, as far as I know.

KAPOW! The only argument that has no comeback. This (and BSA's comments, though we'll get to them later) is the only reason I have reservations about the DP. Though it could be applied in cases where there is no doubt (hoddle street, tassie) about the identity and guilt of the suspect, insanity pleas aside.

7. Although people might think prisoners have it easy in their cells with TV and whatnot, but nothing can atone for the loss of freedom.

Cry me a f@rking river. I can think of a worse fate. The loss of life.

I think we're kidding ourselves if we think its an easy life in there.

They're still alive, which is more than you can say for their victims.

8. Those about to quote the bible, "an eye for an eye", should know that that is NOT the context it is meant to be used in.

Says who? How do you know what it meant unless you know the author? Personally quoting anything in the bible is a bit risky given the number of passages that contradict each other.

Another quote: "vengence is mine" (ie God's). For religious folk, God is the only one who can take vengence and judgement, not us.

Which is pretty much BSA's line of argument as well. Whilst I respect your (and his) views there's more non-Christian's out there than Christians, and most of them probably aren't going to be too worried about biblical prohibition. The other question I'd ask is if we are to take this quote and follow it, do we also take all the quotes in the bible and follow them? Such as those that refer to slavery, homosexuality, working on the Sabbath etc. Or do we obey only those that suit us?

In summary, I believe very strongly that we would be a sad sort of society if we countered killing with killing.

Never.

Fair enough. My reservation is based purely on the fact that it's a little hard to reverse if you decide later on that the person is innocent or that you don't like capital punishment.

Just my 2c worth

 

[Leia]

No

I can only add my agreement to the points already raised in objection to the death penalty. Basically, i believe that rehabilitation is supposed to be the main focus of the justice system, but the death penalty is inconsistent with that idea, and instead promotes and condones vengence.

 

[Chicago1]

I agree wholeheartedly with sbagman's eloquent words.

I am ashamed of my native land at times like these. I had a look at the AOL boards today about the execution and was shocked by the venom that many contained. On one hand there were posts wishing there was a more painful way to execute McVeigh, and on the other hand, right wing nuts who were calling him a hero because he was standing up against the government by bombing a federal building.

I'm in the minority here. I've always been against the death penalty. It is a sad indictment on a society, in my opinion, that it can legally kill one of its own citizens. I believe McVeigh, just like any other perpetrator of such a dastardly crime, should have been locked up forever with the memory of the deed on his mind. He did not apologise for what he did before he was executed. Maybe in fifty years he might have. We will never know with his death.

I guess I'm a bit out of step with the thinking of most Americans - I'm against the death penalty, the 'generous' gun ownership laws, local control of public schools, the recent Bush tax cuts and the influence of the 'religious right'. I'm for a more socialised medical system, state run public school systems, closer ties with Cuba and China and I even voted for Al Gore! I guess that's why I want to move back to Australia!!!

 

[magpie_joffa]

What mcveigh did was not right he forfeited his right to be any sort of member in our society because of it..but to agree with a system that puts these type of people to death is hypocritical for what difference is the system who supports the death penalty and a person like mcveigh for anyone who supports the death penalty is also guilty of murder.

The people who disturb me are those who gained some sort of satisfaction from this whole sordid affair as sad as i was for the many many families effected by this tragedy i was also felt sad for mcveigh.

Death penalty is not the answer...retribution will never be an answer.

 

[Chicago1]

Oh my God! I agree with Joffa! What is this world coming to?????

 

[Danni]

QT you already know my feelings on the issue from chat last night, and you will see that alot of what Sbagman said is what I was trying to say, he just did it more eloquently.

 

[Dave]

Good points Joffa, but in answer to one question you posed:

for what difference is the system who supports the death penalty and a person like mcveigh

I would answer that by saying that the death penalty is not randomly applied to innocent people in the way that murder usually is. Were the people TM killed guilty of the sort of crime he comitted? Did he give them the same right to a defence in a court of their peers that he was given? So (IMO) it's not quite the same.


What's the answer? Damned if I know. It's a bloody difficult question. I think whoever said we need to look at the cause hit the nail on the head. If we can make our society one where people fell they have a purpose (whatever that may be) and tolerance towards others is valued then perhaps we'll be some way towards a solution of sorts.

It's probably not that simple though. How do we stop the mentally impaired (ie physcopaths) from killing? Do we implement the sort of screening talked about in various sci-fi books/movies to detect them before they can do any harm? Civil-liberties would love that! Humans being humans there will always be people greedy for money/power who'll put their interests before others, which leads inevitably to killing. How do we eradicate that trait? Genetic engineering? *Shudder* We don't even know what the changes we're making to crops will do, let alone playing around with human DNA.

 

[Visro]

The death penalty is the most unjust, immoral crock of sh!t I have ever seen or heard of. Its is hypocritical for a start and reading some of the comments of people who had family die in the bombing made me sick regarding their attitude to McVeigh. I do not believe that because someone kills someone else, they should be killed for it. Dont they tell us in primary schools that we should never try and get payback? Some Americans really freak me out and those that support the death penalty I would prefer not to know. The actual execution of McVeigh was also immoral, wtf did the media get to see the execution and family members of those who died. Those last few moments he should have spent by himself and not with 15 other people going "Is he dead yet?!!" LIKE I SAID BEFORE.............MOST UNJUST, IMMORAL CROCK OF SH!T I HAVE EVER KNOWN AND EVER WILL KNOW!

Vis

 

[X_box_X]

It depends who it is.
if its the abuser he deserves to die!
I reckon the abuser would do something like that and kill many, many people!
BUT I DONT RECKON PEOPLE SHOULD DIE IF ITS THE FIRST TIME THEY HAVE KILLED SOMEONE. IF IT HAPPENS OVER AND OVER AGAIN THEY SHOULD BE SENTENCED TO DEATH.

 

[Sydneyfan]

I agree with Sbagman, Bloodstained Angel and everyone who has commented in opposition to the death penalty. By killing a murderer all you are doing is proving that you are no better than them by performing the same act as they acted (murder), you're lowering yourself to their level.

Humans (whoever they are) do not have the right to kill another human being (whatever justification they use). It sets a poor example for children and it is incredibly hypocritical, this man is bad and killed people so we are going to make it right by killing him.

 

[magpie_joffa]

Originally posted by Visro
The death penalty is the most unjust, immoral crock of sh!t I have ever seen or heard of. Its is hypocritical for a start and reading some of the comments of people who had family die in the bombing made me sick regarding their attitude to McVeigh. I do not believe that because someone kills someone else, they should be killed for it. Dont they tell us in primary schools that we should never try and get payback? Some Americans really freak me out and those that support the death penalty I would prefer not to know. The actual execution of McVeigh was also immoral, wtf did the media get to see the execution and family members of those who died. Those last few moments he should have spent by himself and not with 15 other people going "Is he dead yet?!!" LIKE I SAID BEFORE.............MOST UNJUST, IMMORAL CROCK OF SH!T I HAVE EVER KNOWN AND EVER WILL KNOW!

Vis

WELL SAID VISRO...WELL SAID

THERE IS AND NEVER WILL BE JUSTIFICATION FOR THE DEATH PENALTY AND THOSE WHO DO SUPPORT IT HAVE SEVERE PROBLEMS....IF IN YOUR HEART YOU WANT SOME ONE EXECUTED ARE YOU NOT GUILTY OF MURDER AS WELL....VISRO YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AMERICANS AND THEY ARE THE MOST THUCKED RACE OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD.

 

[QT]

So who were the other 6 that voted yes!

 

[Go South]

Originally posted by QT
So who were the other 6 that voted yes!

Certainly not I.

 

[Sydneyfan]

Timothy McVeigh did an awful, disgusting thing killing many people, injuring many more and affecting many families. It was an evil act.
But by watching him die does that make all the pain go away of losing a loved one, all it seems to do is erase the object of hate (McVeigh). The loved one will never return in this lifetime, the object of people's hate has now died too, it seems for many people now who lost a loved one and hated McVeigh ever since will be left with a hollow feeling, what do I do? I hated a man and watched him die but the situation hasn't changed, my loved one has not returned and will not return.
It would be interesting to see if people who lost a close one and were in favour of the death penalty, witnessing McVeigh's death will feel the same way about the death penalty in five years time. Nothing would of changed, they can't get their loved ones back, only thing different is that McVeigh is dead.

 

[Visro]

Originally posted by QT
So who were the other 6 that voted yes!

Sure you haven't been doing the local rounds at your library?

Vis