defensive setup....

[suspect footskills]

I heard for years that Bucks was the mind behind the press that won us a flag
and to be honest I was sceptical but now I'm a believer.
The way our defense is running this year is going to get us into September. Barring stupendous injuries, we're back this September.
My doctor had a choice between playing for the Pies and studying to be a doctor. He and McKenna were adjudged as equal talents, each having strengths the aaothers lacked. My docs parents talked him out of it but he's got a brilliant football mind and IMO would be an amazing coach.
A lot of old blokes talk sh$t but when my son was born, all the older nurses got excited when they saw his name on her file. One mentioned how proud he'd be if he saw the tiny pies scarf I got my boy.
Anyway back to relevance on topic. He drew me a diagram this afternoon that really opened up my eyes. I always notice we seem to outnumber the opposition and he showed me exactly how its done.
Unfortunately I can't repeat his words verbatim but he basically said our lack of kicking skill in our key backs was a non issue. We'll outnumber the opposition most times and our better kicks will hammer it out of defence.
He mentioned that with plan we shouldn't expect bags from Cloke as he's playing a sacrificial game. He said we'll continue to see a good spread of goal kickers and that we'll touch up a lot of teams rated higher than us based on our "backward forward press" as he labelled it.
Any thoughts? Critiques?

 

[xxxWillxxx]

Well the zone that everyone hates when it gets kicked over does allow players to focus pressure on the oppositions second and third receivers

 

[Ketchup]

I'm convinced

 

[Kappa]

Not to take anything away from Bucks.. but this man deserves a LOT of credit for how well our backline is performing.

The Crows were absolutely filthy to lose him.

 

[suspect footskills]

[QUOmentionexWillxxx, post: 38382039, member: 40375"]Well the zone that everyone hates when it gets kicked over does allow players to focus pressure on the oppositions second and third receivers[/QUOTE]

He mentioned that the moment the ball came in our chb would peel off his man and be replaced by a suitable mid/wing. He also mentioned Cloke moving up the guts of the ground whilst our other fwds peeled off on 30° angles. Its beautiful as if they stop double/triple teaming Cloke be has a night out and if not we still score.

 

[suspect footskills]

Sorry bout the vague thread. I'm half cut and and didn't realise the meds I'm on only potentiate the piss.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I heard for years that Bucks was the mind behind the press that won us a flag
and to be honest I was sceptical but now I'm a believer.
The way our defense is running this year is going to get us into September. Barring stupendous injuries, we're back this September.
My doctor had a choice between playing for the Pies and studying to be a doctor. He and McKenna were adjudged as equal talents, each having strengths the aaothers lacked. My docs parents talked him out of it but he's got a brilliant football mind and IMO would be an amazing coach.
A lot of old blokes talk sh$t but when my son was born, all the older nurses got excited when they saw his name on her file. One mentioned how proud he'd be if he saw the tiny pies scarf I got my boy.
Anyway back to relevance on topic. He drew me a diagram this afternoon that really opened up my eyes. I always notice we seem to outnumber the opposition and he showed me exactly how its done.
Unfortunately I can't repeat his words verbatim but he basically said our lack of kicking skill in our key backs was a non issue. We'll outnumber the opposition most times and our better kicks will hammer it out of defence.
He mentioned that with plan we shouldn't expect bags from Cloke as he's playing a sacrificial game. He said we'll continue to see a good spread of goal kickers and that we'll touch up a lot of teams rated higher than us based on our "backward forward press" as he labelled it.
Any thoughts? Critiques?

It's May. Not September. This is why we are so hated, because we get so far ahead of ourselves when we are winning and never actually cement it or live up to the hype. What happened to going under the radar?

 

[Vicky Park]

It's May. Not September. This is why we are so hated, because we get so far ahead of ourselves when we are winning and never actually cement it or live up to the hype. What happened to going under the radar?

Yes, but it's fun to talk about. Especially given the gloomy NAB games which had many of us despairing. As for the radar, pfft, I'd like to be under it too, but it's impossible for the Pies. The radar tracks us down, will never let us hide.

 

[Ricky90]

So far so good, but let's revisit this in August.

If we roll the Cats and North in the next few weeks, I'll be really, really excited.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Hey OP, I was kinda actually the person who started the "the press was Bucks' idea" theory a few years back. In the end it's a theory of mine that I still believe to this day. Having said that, too early to call September action. We've effectively played 3 garbage sides and 2 average inconsistent sides. Yeah we'll take the 4-1, much better than 1-4 (which is what I was expecting).

Funny thing is, I actually think we'll be around 9-2 but still might miss finals as funny as that sounds. I'm kinda just expecting that drop off we had last year.

More on topic, I'm really happy that I can (after 3 years) finally see an actual structure out there. It's not easy to see on replays, but out on the ground, Buckley has a really simple defensive philosophy. Cover for your team mate. So what you see on the replay is Frosty consistently leaving his man to make an awesome spoil, take an intercept mark or lay a tackle. What you don't really see on the replay is the MASSIVE "one over" that takes place behind him.

Frost goes to player A, then Brown quickly leaves his man to go to Frosts in case of an over the top, then Marley will go to Brown's man, then Seedsman will go to Marley's man, which continues until they're outside 50 or on the wing. It takes a LOT of commitment, and hopefully they can sustain it, because it's a plan so simple, I'm surprised teams haven't been doing it more.

 

[ClaytonM]

Hey OP, I was kinda actually the person who started the "the press was Bucks' idea" theory a few years back. In the end it's a theory of mine that I still believe to this day. Having said that, too early to call September action. We've effectively played 3 garbage sides and 2 average inconsistent sides. Yeah we'll take the 4-1, much better than 1-4 (which is what I was expecting).

Funny thing is, I actually think we'll be around 9-2 but still might miss finals as funny as that sounds. I'm kinda just expecting that drop off we had last year.

More on topic, I'm really happy that I can (after 3 years) finally see an actual structure out there. It's not easy to see on replays, but out on the ground, Buckley has a really simple defensive philosophy. Cover for your team mate. So what you see on the replay is Frosty consistently leaving his man to make an awesome spoil, take an intercept mark or lay a tackle. What you don't really see on the replay is the MASSIVE "one over" that takes place behind him.

Frost goes to player A, then Brown quickly leaves his man to go to Frosts in case of an over the top, then Marley will go to Brown's man, then Seedsman will go to Marley's man, which continues until they're outside 50 or on the wing. It takes a LOT of commitment, and hopefully they can sustain it, because it's a plan so simple, I'm surprised teams haven't been doing it more.

It will be interesting to see the reaction on here when it fails, which it will at times. Will Frost be lampooned on here because he leaves his man wide open in the goal square a number of times in a game and they score easy goals. Under this structure it doesn't matter whose opponent kicks the goal because it is the structure that have failed, not the individual who has had the goal kicked on him. Not sure some on here will be able to handle that. Frost we still be lampooned.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

It will be interesting to see the reaction on here when it fails, which it will at times. Will Frost be lampooned on here because he leaves his man wide open in the goal square a number of times in a game and they score easy goals. Under this structure it doesn't matter whose opponent kicks the goal because it is the structure that have failed, not the individual who has had the goal kicked on him. Not sure some on here will be able to handle that. Frost we still be lampooned.

I lampoon Frost for giving his man too much rope. He's tightened up a lot since last year and the NAB games, which is good. But as I said, it takes commitment and a young side may not have the concentration or fitness levels yet to consistently pull this off. So maybe some will get pissed off. No one likes losing. It happened a few times against Carlton. 2 or 3 of their goals were effectively a Joe the goose, which means someone didn't leave their man.

 

[Vicky Park]

It happened a few times against Carlton. 2 or 3 of their goals were effectively a Joe the goose, which means someone didn't leave their man.

Is that what the saying refers to? A goal kicked by an unmanned forward? Keep hearing the term, but had no idea what it meant.

 

[ClaytonM]

I lampoon Frost for giving his man too much rope. He's tightened up a lot since last year and the NAB games, which is good. But as I said, it takes commitment and a young side may not have the concentration or fitness levels yet to consistently pull this off. So maybe some will get pissed off. No one likes losing. It happened a few times against Carlton. 2 or 3 of their goals were effectively a Joe the goose, which means someone didn't leave their man.

It also occurred a few times against the Bombers. I think we may have to learn to accept that a higher percentage of goals will be scored against us like this because of our defensive structures, and it is a collective failure not the individual who had the goal kicked on him.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

It also occurred a few times against the Bombers. I think we may have to learn to accept that a higher percentage of goals will be scored against us like this because of our defensive structures, and it is a collective failure not the individual who had the goal kicked on him.

Yep. Of course. I got annoyed at the Essendon game because I wasn't there and couldn't see the structure in action, so I just saw them as "cheap goals". The Adelaide game was the first one I went to and obviously it wasn't happening there. The Carlton game was the first time I saw it with my own eyes. You know what though? I'll take the cheapies if it means keeping sides to under 10 goals each week.

 

[good4footy]

It's May. Not September. This is why we are so hated, because we get so far ahead of ourselves when we are winning and never actually cement it or live up to the hype. What happened to going under the radar?

I picture you reacting to anything positive like a vampire to light.

If people can't be positive till September than maybe you you afford the rest of us the same courtesy by waiting till September for your negativity.

 

[ClaytonM]

Yep. Of course. I got annoyed at the Essendon game because I wasn't there and couldn't see the structure in action, so I just saw them as "cheap goals". The Adelaide game was the first one I went to and obviously it wasn't happening there. The Carlton game was the first time I saw it with my own eyes. You know what though? I'll take the cheapies if it means keeping sides to under 10 goals each week.

I don't care if 100% of opposition goals are cheapies and all kicked on one player if our structures limit teams to under ten. I will not be criticising that player who is doing the right thing but getting goals kicked on him.

 

[Soaring Magpie]

It will be interesting to see the reaction on here when it fails, which it will at times. Will Frost be lampooned on here because he leaves his man wide open in the goal square a number of times in a game and they score easy goals. Under this structure it doesn't matter whose opponent kicks the goal because it is the structure that have failed, not the individual who has had the goal kicked on him. Not sure some on here will be able to handle that. Frost we still be lampooned.

You are right in what you say, in the Adelaide game frost looked terrible but when you take into account this game plan and structure they are playing, when it breaks down there will be one defender made to look bad, and it's been frost who has continually left his man to be that 3rd up. Has looked really good and worked the last 3 weeks but didn't against the crows. No dramas as its a new game plan this year as far as I can tell, so will come unstuck from time to time, just like the press did while they were still mastering that game plan.

 

[Vicky Park]

This discussion emphasises yet again the difference between seeing the game live (e.g watching the whole field of play from the second tier of the MCG), and watching on TV. With the latter, you can miss so much, and jump to 'interesting' conclusions about what is going on. Mind you, I couldn't discern a game plan if it hit me on the head, but if explained like it has been above, the penny drops. Thanks guys, great discussion.

 

[mattys123]

Hey OP, I was kinda actually the person who started the "the press was Bucks' idea" theory a few years back. In the end it's a theory of mine that I still believe to this day. Having said that, too early to call September action. We've effectively played 3 garbage sides and 2 average inconsistent sides. Yeah we'll take the 4-1, much better than 1-4 (which is what I was expecting).

Funny thing is, I actually think we'll be around 9-2 but still might miss finals as funny as that sounds. I'm kinda just expecting that drop off we had last year.

More on topic, I'm really happy that I can (after 3 years) finally see an actual structure out there. It's not easy to see on replays, but out on the ground, Buckley has a really simple defensive philosophy. Cover for your team mate. So what you see on the replay is Frosty consistently leaving his man to make an awesome spoil, take an intercept mark or lay a tackle. What you don't really see on the replay is the MASSIVE "one over" that takes place behind him.

Frost goes to player A, then Brown quickly leaves his man to go to Frosts in case of an over the top, then Marley will go to Brown's man, then Seedsman will go to Marley's man, which continues until they're outside 50 or on the wing. It takes a LOT of commitment, and hopefully they can sustain it, because it's a plan so simple, I'm surprised teams haven't been doing it more.

It's to some extent the Hawks defensive plan of the last 5-6 years.

They really haven't had excellent one on one defenders throughout that time so they've had to rely on their team mates covering for them and assisting them in big marking contests. Josh Gibson is their Frost, and I wouldn't be shocked if Ben Hart had used Gibson as an example for Frost to follow, all be it Frost is already a better one on one defender then Gibson has ever been.

Bucks said pre season that he wanted us to be the best transition side in the AFL and where does that all start? Down back of course. Get your defense right and everything else follows. It makes it easier for the likes of Seedsman, Oxley, Williams and the midfield dropping back to run that ball out of the backline with less pressure on them.

We haven't really been tested yet, we were physically buggered vs the Crows so even that loss wasn't a great example of whether we can play under pressure or not, so I'm interested to see how we go this week against a strong Cats forward line.

It is good that finally the game plan that Bucks wanted to implement is coming to fruition, even if he's had to make major tweaks along the way.

As for Ben Hart, I hope he doesn't get a senior coaching job at years end, even if he would make a great coach, we want him to stay.

 

[Maggie5]

This discussion emphasises yet again the difference between seeing the game live (e.g watching the whole field of play from the second tier of the MCG), and watching on TV. With the latter, you can miss so much, and jump to 'interesting' conclusions about what is going on. Mind you, I couldn't discern a game plan if it hit me on the head, but if explained like it has been above, the penny drops. Thanks guys, great discussion.

For me it also emphasis howdiffent people see the game.
I don't disagree with a lot of what has been posted but the big difference I see is that the mids, wingers are working much harder and working hard both ways to help out the defenders.
Many times I look and see players like Elliott, Adams, Pendles an co on the back line then running forward to be the next option.
For mine that as what as missing.
Adams and Elliott have really been the standouts for mine.

 

[Old Spice]

What I've noticed is when the opposition kicks out of the goal square, the man on the mark blocks an easy play on exit on one side while another player blocks the cheap 15 metre kick or handball, one-two exit from near the point post. That means the man kicking in either has to kick from the deepest defensive part of the ground which creates a strong chance of spoil/intercept or reset on the boundary line, or gives it to a player in close who then has to kick under pressure.

 

[Knightmare]

Ben Hart is the mastermind behind the backline. Last year he did an incredible job developing guys into capable 1v1 players and this year he has evidently taught team defence and instilled a confidence in players leaving their men to help which we nearly never saw last season. So Hart as a backline coach firstly is doing a terrific job.

In terms of gameplan and what Nathan is looking for us to do. The focus is on creating opposition turnovers with the understanding that teams score most on the turnover. We still have to see how this gameplan stacks up against the good teams, with the good teams to come after the bye. But conceptually I like it a lot, it works with our playing list with some terrific pressure players, and it works with our backline, particularly if Reid is playing down back, Scharenberg is coming into the team at some point and Langdon is also amongst that group as some really high level intercept marks who can just gobble up those pressured kicks. I also like that we have re-captured our identity, which we haven't until this season had under Nathan. So for the first time under Nathan's coaching, I like the direction he is looking to take us. With progress this season, unlike seasons past obvious. But to consolidate that obviously it's down to the second half of the season.

 

[PTpie]

It has been noticable hasn't it? Our team defense is incredible compared to the second half of last season.

Obviously credit must go to the line coaches and Buckley. To me the the most noticeable improvement and the plaudits that go with it must go to Bill Davoren. We are fitter and stronger than I have seen since 2010-11. Our tackles stick. We rarely lose one on ones. We block and shepherd effectively, to the advantage of teammates. All of this and we do it consistently for 4 quarters.

Maybe we did end up with the right guy? Maybe the pain of those injury plagued seasons whilst implementing the new regime will be worth it? To me, at this time, it is certainly bearing fruit and we look a better team for it.

 

[rose jam]

The press was a souped up version of what the Saints did in 2009, which was a souped up version of what the Hawks did in 2008 purely as a countermeasure to the Geelong close in handball game which undid the West Coast and Sydney dive on the ball game plan the few years before that.
Now maybe Bucks looked at the Saints circa 2009 and found a better way to do what they were doing, probably. Though Mick said he read a war book and was totally inspired by that. Though Bucks said his own reference was that 2008 demolition we gave Geelong in 2008 was the real genesis.