Developing The RFC Squad?

[TJTIGER]

This is an interesting area for me and even of more interest in terms of the resources being put into development at the Tigers….

For me it's the coaching/teaching of players one on one, the drive of those players but often an unsung area is the players you can bring into the squad that help set the tone and provide match conditions/pressure to really hone those skills. These are things that are managed individually but also overall as a group. To me it's a real art….

The things I'm interested in are the ideas/opinions of you all in terms of what you believe are the key issues in development, (or related issues) and perhaps the best ways of developing the squad?

Over to you gang….

 

[Dragonss]

Tackling 101
Don't just grab the jumper.
Ping the arms.
Koala Grapple.

Goalkicking for every full-time forward or rotation forward after every training session.

Most important of all... chemistry. Be as one, so you know each and every one of your teammates strengths and weaknesses and your own. Work to your and their strengths. Communication is the key. Cotchin and Deledio take turns tagging each other, so they out maneuver other guns.

 

[sante]

These days it's about knowing the gameplan. Structure seems to beat personnel.

 

[Squibbs]

Tackling 101
Don't just grab the jumper.
Ping the arms.
Koala Grapple.

Goalkicking for every full-time forward or rotation forward after every training session.

Most important of all... chemistry. Be as one, so you know each and every one of your teammates strengths and weaknesses and your own. Work to your and their strengths. Communication is the key. Cotchin and Deledio take turns tagging each other, so they out maneuver other guns.

100% agree. Goal kicking and tackling should be our main targets to improve on. If we can get our forwards being more efficient in front of the goals that will help us immensely. Tackling is really a work rate thing in my opinion.

And chemistry should already be there. If it's not, we need to work on it ASAP.

 

[Calcium Man]

This is going to be a bit of a mind dump so feel free to gloss over it as i'm sure it will end up in unexpected areas. But a theory i've been developing over the last 18 months as i've watched Melbourne plummet and us rise when we have probably had the worse positioned and number of draft picks over the last 5 years.

It comes down to having the right people in the right places and continuing to get the right people to the right places or the areas you are weak. Everybody uses the byword culture in football these days but it about learning to develop this culture.

The first example i look at is Brett Deledio v Chris Judd v Marc Murphy. These are three very talented players who have come into the system as similar types of characters, they are all internal focused people and IMO made poor leaders. Earlier this year i think Richo said Lids used to get so frustrated early on that other Tigers couldn't do what he could, Judd used to write article all the time about footballers not being role models he never wanted to take responsibility for being a leader in the community, i played and went to school with Murphy and he was never a leader on the field he did what he had to but he was never the guy to worry about how others were going on the field.

You look at how the have evolved as footballers, Murphy is captain mostly because there is no one else at Carlton its certainly not a position he has thrived in. Judd and Deledio have both evolved into very good leaders simply because of Ben Cousins, you can say a lot of bad about Benny but no one can doubt he was a brilliant leader. I remember in 09 one game Deledio was hiding in the players race before we came out and Cuz walked down grabbed him and put him the front of the line, he made sure Lids knew he was a leader.

Of course Murphy had Judd but that was it. Judd walked into Carlton and was forced to be captain (when once again i don't think he ever wanted it) and that was it even Ratten was not much of a leader. Deledio had Cousins, but he also had Newman who had evolved into a great leader, Kane Johnson, Jackson, Hardwick and Gale, who were all the right people in the right places. Lids also had Cotchin, Riewoldt and Rance who were all good young leaders in their own right coming up and pushing him to the point where right now i think everyone would be very happy for him to be our captain. Murphy had no above and Kruezer and Gibbs are similar types of personalities pushing him.

When you look at Melbourne i think they recruited a couple of those leader types but once they got rid of Jimmy Mac and Brad Miller and the guys they recruited like Byrnes, Clark, Dawes and Rodan are not leaders that Grimes and Trengove especially had nobody to learn off, except perhaps Nathan Jones. Along with two cancers in Connelly and Schwab. Compare that with most of our recruiting since about 07. Cotchin, Rance, Astbury, Grimes, Conca, Ellis and Vlastuin were all very good leaders coming into the club, plus our trades in Houli, Maric, Chaplin and Miller to compliment Newman, Jackson and Cousins.

Of course they had Neeld coming in trying to force a culture on the club instead of bring in the right people who will instil the right kind of culture naturally. Similar to what is now happening at the saints with Watters.

Which brings me to the saints. We could say they have a lot of the right tools to work with as saint nick, luke ball, hayes and Hammil were all good leaders. But the Saints have long been getting into trouble of the field and the culture has long had a rotten heart since Grant Thomas knifed his way to the top job. Watters came in with the decision he would force a culture change and it has backfired spectacularly. Pelchen is probably on the right track more but i don't think he is the right person to fix the saints rotten heart. The saints did show with a clever coach and a talented core you can still go close to a premiership, along with Collingwood but it sacrifices the development of your younger core a bit (Collingwood have worked around it a bit better).

I have to go out now but i was going to go into the fundamental difference between Sydney, Hawthorn and Geelong vs the downfall of the saints and to lesser extent Collingwood. I also was going to work through Port and Us vs some similar teams like Carlton, Lions, Essendon, WCE and Adelaide. I might go through them latter. But the overall point is development comes from having the right people who push for excellence as a collective not as an individual.

 

[Dragonss]

damn richo was a beast eh?

 

[wormy]

I say we need more people like Choco. I'm pretty sure he gets Dusty over to his house for dinner every week

 

[Turka]

I say we need more people like Choco. I'm pretty sure he gets Dusty over to his house for dinner every week

That's right. We need more like Choco, but we need to hold onto Choco first. It's no coincidence that Dusty had his best season in Choco's first (despite Dusty and Ralph taking the gloss off it big time at the end ).

But if our second tier players can respond like Dusty did, we will be hard to beat. A lot will fall to our assistant coaches to get this done. Hopefully it's Choco (still with us), McQualter, Campbell, Bailey, Lade, Smith, Clarke, Williams and Daly, all combining to improve the performance of the kids we have coming through on every line.

This is a huge year for: Helbig, Griffiths, Batchelor, Astbury. It's make or break.
Hopefully we see McBean (but he's still got heaps of time), maybe Williams, maybe Darrou and definitely more of McDonough.

When we get a Sydney-like midfield, and a Hawthorn-like forward line, there will be lock-outs.

 

[theflea]

I think tackling is an issue not so much the technique moreso the want to do it but I think we are getting better at it. Our game plan isn't conjusive for it. I still think contested possessions is still our no 1 goal as when we fail this(like all teams really in the modern game) we get scored against heavily. So wrestling and running repeated all summer.

 

[Cotcho]

I think tackling is an issue not so much the technique moreso the want to do it but I think we are getting better at it. Our game plan isn't conjusive for it. I still think contested possessions is still our no 1 goal as when we fail this(like all teams really in the modern game) we get scored against heavily. So wrestling and running repeated all summer.

Yer I think this is a good point. Our manic pressure and tackling could and should definitely improve as we naturally become a better team, however this statistic is very misleading.

West Coast for example: #2 tackles, #14 in scores against
Richmond in comparison: #18 tackles, #3 in scores against

Clearly our defensive pressure is there, it matters not if one of our players is grabbing an opposition player... because obviously there are other more effective ways to prevent the opposition from scoring such as a) having the ball, b) marking space and preventing outlets, c) 1%ers such as spoiling/smothering and d) positioning at stoppages/contests.

 

[Cotcho]

OP, I am very much interested in the psychology of the game and would love to find out who, what and how much we do in this area.

We know that to get drafted into the AFL your physical attributes such a strength, speed, coordination, agility are there. They are easily measurable. But what is it that separates players like Richard Tambling/Jack Watts and Luke Hodge/Gary Abblets? What is it that allows a team like Port Adelaide to jump up the ladder and play with confidence so remarkably in one year and yet a team like Melbourne, with all the draft picks and talent in the world to remain at the bottom.

I understand that we do some psych testing and screening into the players to ensure they can cope with the attention and off-field stuff etc but where to we take it from there?

I think great coaches and leaders know this kind of stuff intuitively, you hear about Allan Jeans etc being able to "say just the right thing to each individual to get the best of him" and with more practice in areas such as goal kicking and match simulation our mental side of the game should improve.

However, how much stuff do we proactively do in this area? I remember an interview with Chocco when he was first appointed, he said "It's not good enough to go and kick at goal, you need to simulate match conditions...to simulate that you are kicking for a goal after the siren in the grand final, so that when you are in that position...you have done it 1000s of times.". I think we need to do more of this.

On the contrary, I heard Dimma say prior to the Elimination Final "that the team that made the least mistakes would win". This had alarm bells ringing in my mind and I actually messaged a mate to say wtf! The last thing you want to hear before you run out in your first final is "don't stuff up!" IMO. I think that this MAY have contributed to us not taking the game on and going into our shells in the last half. Of course the message may have been completely different to the players as it was to the media etc but it did make me think.

Does anyone know what we do in this area to further the mental development and belief of the group?

 

[RunningBounce]

an unsung area is the players you can bring into the squad that help set the tone and provide match conditions/pressure to really hone those skills.

But the overall point is development comes from having the right people who push for excellence as a collective not as an individual.

Good discussion!

I also reckon it comes down to the people, and perhaps the question what TJ was driving at

an unsung area is the players you can bring into the squad that help set the tone and provide match conditions/pressure to really hone those skills.

But the overall point is development comes from having the right people who push for excellence as a collective not as an individual.

Good discussion! I also reckon it comes down to the people.

IMO, we are spoilt for these types in our senior list. I can’t imagine Cotchin, Rance, King, Jackson, Maric, Morris, Ellis etc etc holding back at any training session, but importantly, I can also see them giving the likes of McBean, Arnot or McDonough a competitive “come on young fella, let’s see you beat me”, which is great for the good of the team.

Perhaps a question to further the discussion is who do we want in the VFL team? I don’t mean the draft picks who end up playing the majority of the season in the VFL. I mean the retired or delisted types who aren’t going to be on the AFL list, but still want a serious run.

Three I have in mind are Tucky, Dylan Addison and Sam Lonergan. All as hard as cat’s heads and get after the footy like demons. If we can get a few of these competitive types filling out the VFL list, it’s gotta help instil the basics of putting your head over the footy into our youngsters. Ben Griffiths would be a star by now if only he’d get after the pill with a bit more passion.

I read on BF that Nathan Lovett-Murray was rumoured to be lined up. I don’t know much about him, but I like the idea.

Jason Blake would also be ****ing awesome, if he wanted a run, but I reckon he might be headed for a coaching gig.

 

[Tiger71]

Excuse typos and grammar, on the iPhone.

The big key for us and should not be undersold is the importance of our reserves side. Our last few number one picks have performed because they are given real game time to a game plan. our 2-3rd round picks in the main have been playing at coburg and not getting fully exposed to the seniors teams game plan during match day.

Our biggest lift will come once our entire list play and understand the senior match day game plans. Even when in the vfl, it won't be wins that will be important more did the players handle x situation the same as a senior player playing a AFL match.

We will also be able to concentrate the entire list to work on facets of our game plan. We have not had that luxury in full before. Finally we should have our you kids coming into the afl knowing when to run, where to kick it and what to do, will be instinctive.

Huge for us imo

 

[TJTIGER]

OP, I am very much interested in the psychology of the game and would love to find out who, what and how much we do in this area.

We know that to get drafted into the AFL your physical attributes such a strength, speed, coordination, agility are there. They are easily measurable. But what is it that separates players like Richard Tambling/Jack Watts and Luke Hodge/Gary Abblets? What is it that allows a team like Port Adelaide to jump up the ladder and play with confidence so remarkably in one year and yet a team like Melbourne, with all the draft picks and talent in the world to remain at the bottom.

I understand that we do some psych testing and screening into the players to ensure they can cope with the attention and off-field stuff etc but where to we take it from there?

I think great coaches and leaders know this kind of stuff intuitively, you hear about Allan Jeans etc being able to "say just the right thing to each individual to get the best of him" and with more practice in areas such as goal kicking and match simulation our mental side of the game should improve.

However, how much stuff do we proactively do in this area? I remember an interview with Chocco when he was first appointed, he said "It's not good enough to go and kick at goal, you need to simulate match conditions...to simulate that you are kicking for a goal after the siren in the grand final, so that when you are in that position...you have done it 1000s of times.". I think we need to do more of this.

On the contrary, I heard Dimma say prior to the Elimination Final "that the team that made the least mistakes would win". This had alarm bells ringing in my mind and I actually messaged a mate to say wtf! The last thing you want to hear before you run out in your first final is "don't stuff up!" IMO. I think that this MAY have contributed to us not taking the game on and going into our shells in the last half. Of course the message may have been completely different to the players as it was to the media etc but it did make me think.

Does anyone know what we do in this area to further the mental development and belief of the group?

This also fascinates me Cotcho, I'm not sure where it can be found but I remember a very interesting interview with KB about how before the 1980 GF he did some visualising about the game. How things would unfold what he would do, how he would play etc He used words like I would see myself doing this or I would picture this. Just made me wonder where he got his ideas from ? Maybe Tom Hafey, I don't know but it wouldn't surprise me in the least. But at that time I'm not sure how widely those kinds of ideas were being considered (in footy anyway)…. I also think the entire club moving in the same direction is very underrated as well. Not just the players but the club as a whole, for me this really shows with a club like MFC….

 

[TigermanM2]

This also fascinates me Cotcho, I'm not sure where it can be found but I remember a very interesting interview with KB about how before the 1980 GF he did some visualising about the game. How things would unfold what he would do, how he would play etc He used words like I would see myself doing this or I would picture this. Just made me wonder where he got his ideas from ? Maybe Tom Hafey,….

Dr Rudi Webster, a pretty well known sports psychologist worked will the Tigers in 1980 and I remember reading that visualisation was a pretty important part of his program.

 

[TJTIGER]

Dr Rudi Webster, a pretty well known sports psychologist worked will the Tigers in 1980 and I remember reading that visualisation was a pretty important part of his program.

Cheers TmM2. Any idea how many other clubs at that time s/he may have been involved with ? I think around that time the RFC was considered the leader of the VFL . As in other clubs would still be looking in our direction for innovation etc

 

[Dr Tigris]

Developing the squad. Key word to me here is squad.

The first step is having the right mix of players.

• By size and position - rucks, KPs, inside/outside mids. We've done a great job of this in recent years. Well balanced in size and structure
• By skill set. hard contested competitive players, athletes, musclebound or not, skilled players. We've focused on contested, competitive and skilled players. At the expense of speed. Right now I am happy, but would like a bit more speedy skilled guys with early picks if possible.
• By type of person. extraverted/intraverted. leaders, smart people, aggressive, instinctual etc. You need a mix. Looking OK, but I am outside so can't see. A few years back we were supposedly the most intraverted team in the AFL - which is fine but you need extraverts for energy etc.
• By age and career stage. We're still young and will mature into an experienced squad soon. We have picked up experienced guys that fill holes in terms of mature players where we need them. Soon that will not be needed and we will look for guys that help us win a GF. Until now we needed people to top up our ability to be competitive throughout the season in specific areas. From 2014 onward, we need to add specific player types to fill gaps or as opportunity arises.

Second you need players that work together as a team, a winning team.

• That requires teaching the game plan. So good coaching group and on field leadership. The more embedded the plan is and the better the on field group is the more the team can wring from its available capabilities (that sounds so much like a management consultant - sort of true though)
• You need morale and cohesion. Not necessarily all best friends but players working for one another and the betterment of the team. Leadership group, team rules and support structure. The players have to believe in the club and the game plan. I reckon we have that about right. Bulking up the coaching group and facilities was vital. Getting in guys like Cotch, Vlas, conca etc whilst keeping on King, Jacko creates the player leadership needed
• Experience in winning and winning tough. We're getting there. But need to tough it out. That requires firstly traiing in drills for tight games, coming from behind etc. Seocndly the experience of doing it. You know Geelong can come back because they do. The players know have a deeply held beleif

Thirdly and lastly, you need a stable strong environment that makes the players feel secure and comfortable, whilst being challenged to be better. Good financial performance, good management, no infighting, contiinual improvement, capable people in all areas. I reckon we are getting there too. A good management make speople feel like improvement is expected. Poor management makes people feel like turning up is good enough.

Overall, to develop the squad we need to push young guys to take older guys positions and make the team believe more in themselves when the going gets tough. Leadership and certain individuals developing are important for us right now because we aren't quite there for team balance and group resiliancy. But we are close.

 

[TJTIGER]

Very thorough post Dr Tigris , I enjoyed the read cheers

 

[TigermanM2]

Cheers TmM2. Any idea how many other clubs at that time s/he may have been involved with ? I think around that time the RFC was considered the leader of the VFL . As in other clubs would still be looking in our direction for innovation etc

Just us in 1980 I believe. He was working with Carlton the year before and was the reason for the dust up between Jewell and Percy Jones in the Qualifying final. Webster was better know for his work with cricketers before his VFL days. I really don't know what happened to him after 1980.

 

[RunningBounce]

• Experience in winning and winning tough. We're getting there. But need to tough it out. That requires firstly traiing in drills for tight games, coming from behind etc. Seocndly the experience of doing it. You know Geelong can come back because they do. The players know have a deeply held beleif

This is a great point and one I hadn't considered before.

To dig into this coming from behind thing a little, I’ve had a look at the scores from 2013, at each quarter break (quarter time, half time, three quarter time) as well as the final results. I know this doesn’t capture all the data, so if the opposition got in front of us during a quarter, and then we pegged it back to retake the lead by the break, this analysis won’t pick it up.

As we all know, we had 15 wins. For 11 of those wins, we lead at every change. First quarters were truly a strength for us in 2013.

Our 4 “wins from behind”, when we were behind at one of the changes, weren’t particularly huge. Three were against teams we should have beaten (Demons, West Coast and Gold Coast), and our “win from behind” against Hawthorn was from 2 points down at half time. They did get a little further than that ahead at times during quarters, but never more than 2 goals up, so while it was a really great win, it was hardly a huge come back.

So I reckon the good Dr T is spot on. We need to be better at coming from behind to develop as a team.

To flip the thing on its head, of our 8 losses, in 3 we trailed at every change and never looked like getting up.

The other 5 losses were real opportunities to snatch a victory through belief and “never-say-die” footy. These were against:

· Carlton twice (no comment),
· Pies in Round 3 where we were right in it until Cloke cut sick on Rance,
· Dockers at Subi in Round 4 when our on-field leadership / game day coaching let us down in the dying moments of the last quarter
· Geelong in Round 5 who cruised past us when Ivan and Ty both went down with injuries (no helping that one).

IMO, in the 4 of those 5 games we could have won, the thing that was missing was the ability to make an effective change when we are being beaten in a critical aspect (eg Judd dominating clearances, Cloke winning contested marks I50).

Hardwick is a great coach, but he is learning too, and his development as a game day coach is an obvious area where our ability to come from behind might be improved.

Ditto on-field leadership. Cotchin and Deledio, particular, need to impose themselves wherever they are needed, not just the midfield.

 

[Tiger71]

This is a great point and one I hadn't considered before.

To dig into this coming from behind thing a little, I’ve had a look at the scores from 2013, at each quarter break (quarter time, half time, three quarter time) as well as the final results. I know this doesn’t capture all the data, so if the opposition got in front of us during a quarter, and then we pegged it back to retake the lead by the break, this analysis won’t pick it up.

As we all know, we had 15 wins. For 11 of those wins, we lead at every change. First quarters were truly a strength for us in 2013.

Our 4 “wins from behind”, when we were behind at one of the changes, weren’t particularly huge. Three were against teams we should have beaten (Demons, West Coast and Gold Coast), and our “win from behind” against Hawthorn was from 2 points down at half time. They did get a little further than that ahead at times during quarters, but never more than 2 goals up, so while it was a really great win, it was hardly a huge come back.

So I reckon the good Dr T is spot on. We need to be better at coming from behind to develop as a team.

To flip the thing on its head, of our 8 losses, in 3 we trailed at every change and never looked like getting up.

The other 5 losses were real opportunities to snatch a victory through belief and “never-say-die” footy. These were against:

· Carlton twice (no comment),
· Pies in Round 3 where we were right in it until Cloke cut sick on Rance,
· Dockers at Subi in Round 4 when our on-field leadership / game day coaching let us down in the dying moments of the last quarter
· Geelong in Round 5 who cruised past us when Ivan and Ty both went down with injuries (no helping that one).

IMO, in the 4 of those 5 games we could have won, the thing that was missing was the ability to make an effective change when we are being beaten in a critical aspect (eg Judd dominating clearances, Cloke winning contested marks I50).

Hardwick is a great coach, but he is learning too, and his development as a game day coach is an obvious area where our ability to come from behind might be improved.

Ditto on-field leadership. Cotchin and Deledio, particular, need to impose themselves wherever they are needed, not just the midfield.

Quality post!

On the bold bit. We I believe are trying to develop a group of leaders across every line to do just that. That's why recruits like Vlastuin are so important.

 

[Dr Tigris]

To me the key is the squad not the palyers - if that makes sense. Having a few great players isn't much use without a supporting cast of sufficient quality. Having a great leader isn't fantastic if they are alone. In 2013 we showed the ability to match anyone. But when the whips came onto us we lost the plot a few times, especially against harded fast running sides. We're getting there but I just don't see that steely never say die attitude yet. It's coaching, players, leadership group and club culture. Maybe 2014 will see us take that phychological step. But as has been said in this thread we're improving. Got to hope, and part of that to me is keeping Chocco. I reckon he adds development to our coaching set up as well as players.

 

[jreesosb]

Dr Rudi Webster, a pretty well known sports psychologist worked will the Tigers in 1980 and I remember reading that visualisation was a pretty important part of his program.

Remember him and tony jewell swiping percy jones ha ha!! good times

 

[jreesosb]

Ah sorry tigerman . jumped the gun

 

[FFS Kick it]

Fantastic thread and some great contributions. I echo a lot of what has been said.

My contribution is leadership. Not just one or two players or the leadership group. The whole team as individuals must be prepared to show and demonstrate leadership traits when required.
For example "ability to come from behind" was mentioned. Surely when we are struggling each individual must lift and show leadership to galvanise the others. Since the mid 00's I have noticed Sydney and Geelong players always talking and directing on field. This is leadership. Constant encouragement, constant directing, doing the unheralded 1% things that win premierships ( remember Scarlett hack to GAJ which resulted in a goal against Saints in a GF).

I liked Rance saying we are too quiet. We have been that way for years. A bunch of introverts. We need even the quietest player to feel comfortable to speak out when he sees a problem.

RFC have come a long way in this regard but we need to go much further.

So to answer I would say Personal Development for leadership traits should be a focus. Many game factors such as tackling/shepherds/bumps are selfless sacrifices and show great leadership qualities.

regards FFS