Draft 2002. Trade them away or not?

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Should the Blues avoid trading away early draft picks this year regardless of the players available? Does it depend on the age of the player, injury concerns, form? Do we go the untried youth avenue and take a gamble so at least we can't be condemned by the media for our draft policies? Would you trade for an in form superstar?

I personally would trade for a Jonathan Hay type but would avoid the inconsistent Matthew Richardson type. Of course if we did trade picks away and the player broke down we would be copping in the media yet again. Maybe we have to risk picking up another Vance or Chatfield just to appease the fans?

What's your call?

 

[The Hitman]

Haven't you learnt from your previous mistakes?

Get as many good kids as ya can.

The Hitman

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

By mistakes Hitters do you mean the trading for aging players or the early selections of Vance, Chatfield etc. We do not have the best record with our early picks you know. I am not advocating trading draft picks but would certainly consider it for a younger but established key position player. Luke Livingston is a number 4 pick that the jury is still out on (fingers crossed).

 

[Westy_Boy]

There's no right answer.... you're taking a huge risk either way.

Say you come dead last, and have the top pick in this years' draft. Brisbane comes up and offers the solution to a lot of your problems (in Leppitsch) for that #1 selection.

If you take the offer, Leppitsch might have a shocking run with injuries and form, and the pick might end up being the next Carey.

If you don't take the offer, Leppitsch goes on to be the rock in Brisbane's defense for another 7 seasons, and this years draft just happens to be the worst crop of youngsters in 10 years.

The likely scenario is that Leppitsch will see you remain competitive for another three, four years ... the number one choice might see you up there contending for premierships for the next ten.

Whatever the choice, don't base decisions on what the media thinks.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Exactly what I wanted Westy. A balanced view not affected by popular opinion.

Cheers

 

[Mattster]

yeah well, if you do get the chance to get a player suited to your needs by trading draft picks, then go ahead.

else don't just trade them.

 

[shortandcurly]

LOOK

Look at the players coming out of contract if we pick up the no1 draft pick ( and maybe 2)

How many of these are under 24
Do we need them in our team structure
Can we get these palyers by simply trading unwanted talent

There has to be a balance. We will obv. have good draft picks this year.. If we r to go for an established player, lets get one that will give us a good 8 - 10 yrs service.

Wouldnt mind knowing who is coming out of contract this yr.
Richo
OLoughlin
Pavlich

Only one of those i would take

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Re: LOOK

Originally posted by shortandcurly
Richo
OLoughlin
Pavlich

Only one of those i would take

No prizes for guessing which one. Does he want to go to Victoria?

 

[wacca]

What Carlton need to do is look at waht they have got and what they need to get back to being a power side -
As an illustration
Positives:
They have a great forward in Whitnall
They have a group of very good but aging players - Ratten, Camporale, McKay, Beaumont, Allan and Koutifides (but he is better than very good)
They have youngsters with potential Houlihan (I think?), Livingston, Davies

They dont have:
A recognised Full back
A recognised Centre half back
a relaible second ruckman
a real in and under rover or centreman who win the ball in the tough contests
Players in the pipeline to fill these positions and down the track replace the ageing stars mentined above

Can they use the pre draft trade to fill some of these positions and go up the ladder a little or should they really bite the bullet and go on to a full team rebuilding program and maximise their draft picks with youngsters who have the potential to fill thees positions in 0ne, twqo and three years time.

 

[The Spornstar]

Originally posted by Westy_Boy
There's no right answer.... you're taking a huge risk either way.

Say you come dead last, and have the top pick in this years' draft. Brisbane comes up and offers the solution to a lot of your problems (in Leppitsch) for that #1 selection.

If you take the offer, Leppitsch might have a shocking run with injuries and form, and the pick might end up being the next Carey.

If you don't take the offer, Leppitsch goes on to be the rock in Brisbane's defense for another 7 seasons, and this years draft just happens to be the worst crop of youngsters in 10 years.

The likely scenario is that Leppitsch will see you remain competitive for another three, four years ... the number one choice might see you up there contending for premierships for the next ten.

Whatever the choice, don't base decisions on what the media thinks.

Beautiful Westy. Put it much better than I could have. I would rather see us punt on that no.1 pick - unless we could get a Jon Hay which lets face it, is not going to happen. Leppitsch coulld be worthwhile but I'd still rather keep the no.1 pick - I want to see us have a good go at winning the flag in 4 years time rather than just being a decent side. As for Richo, FORGET IT!

 

[hotpie]

Carlton needs planty of players to improve its list over the next few years. To get a gun player you need to give up not just a number 1 pick but usually two or three other draft picks.

Dont be fools Carlton... send your scouts out to the TAC Cup and think long term

While you're at it give big John and his cronies the shove.

 

[BrisGirl]

What makes a good footballer?

What is so different from Carlton now, than any other team in the Competition.

When every boy has the chance to reach his potential in one of the most prestigious Clubs in the Competition?

Every Club takes a chance on their intake of rookies, what makes one better than the other.

One of our best players was drafted at 31 - Simon Black.

That means there were, in essence, 30 players better than him before him.

The passion and committment has to come from somewhere. I always look at North Melbourne. They are broke and they are running with an old team but they dig deep and win the occassional game.

When do you question the reason 'why' this is happening, because on paper, technically, Carlton should not be on the bottom of the ladder.

 

[sabre_ac]

There are 2 schools of thought here.
The first being you trade the picks and get the established players, jump up a few spaces and maybe make the 8.
Avoid the heartache of a few lean years and hang on to your blues pride.

The second is use the picks and pick up the kids, expect next year to be just as bad and again get the kids.
4 years later you have a formidable side but the blues pride in the meantime will be serverely crushed.

Fremantle is an example of the second senario.We have no respect from other clubs and supporters alike.Have endured allot with little reward.
But we have a team that will be a force for 10 years with players that can take as to the flag.

Up to you

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Originally posted by sabre_ac
There are 2 schools of thought here.
The first being you trade the picks and get the established players, jump up a few spaces and maybe make the 8.
Avoid the heartache of a few lean years and hang on to your blues pride.

The second is use the picks and pick up the kids, expect next year to be just as bad and again get the kids.
4 years later you have a formidable side but the blues pride in the meantime will be serverely crushed.

Fremantle is an example of the second senario.We have no respect from other clubs and supporters alike.Have endured allot with little reward.
But we have a team that will be a force for 10 years with players that can take as to the flag.

Up to you

There are no guarantees Sabre. If you have the injury woes we have had for the past 3 seasons, it can affect your flag chances. If we recruit players in the draft that don't make it like we have before, we will go nowhere until we have another cleanout (Vance and Chatfield) and start again.

Another scenario is the Essendon one where they still have one flag to show for all of their dominance. There is no hard and fast rule and path for success.

 

[Fat Red]

I still think Essendon are a good model, despite the 1 premiership.

When did Essendon last rebuild? IMO, not in the last 20 years. The "Baby Bombers" was forced on them by the aging of the mid-80s team.

What they have done since then is to manage their list so that they continually have young players pushing up, and then plugging a few holes, but in a way that keeps the list balanced.

There is no reason IMO that you can't build a list this way, but you have to keep using some of your draft picks on youth every year. And then you have to actually give the kids a game, which is the main area I think Carlton has gone wrong.

Our young players haven't had enough chances to prove themselves. If Mark McGough or even Chris Judd had been recruited by Carlton in the 90s they would have cooled their heels in the 2s for 2 years. Lance was an exception being a key position player who was "ready".

 

[The Spornstar]

Originally posted by Fat Red
I still think Essendon are a good model, despite the 1 premiership.

When did Essendon last rebuild? IMO, not in the last 20 years. The "Baby Bombers" was forced on them by the aging of the mid-80s team.

What they have done since then is to manage their list so that they continually have young players pushing up, and then plugging a few holes, but in a way that keeps the list balanced.

There is no reason IMO that you can't build a list this way, but you have to keep using some of your draft picks on youth every year. And then you have to actually give the kids a game, which is the main area I think Carlton has gone wrong.

Our young players haven't had enough chances to prove themselves. If Mark McGough or even Chris Judd had been recruited by Carlton in the 90s they would have cooled their heels in the 2s for 2 years. Lance was an exception being a key position player who was "ready".

Hit the nail on the head there fatboy (how's Sydney? working hard )

Essendon model IMO is the best. They haven't rebuilt at all they just use young players to plug their holes rather than old ones like we have. It's not complicated, it's quite simple - I wish we had implemented it a couple of years back but it's too late now. We need to use Sabre's Freo model now so we can build to become a power and then use the Essendon model if we get to their level. If we cop a spoon then so be it - it's premierships I am after!

 

[USAEagle]

There is one hole in Sabre's Argument...He says they have a team that WILL be a force for the next ten years, yet, based on their past record, they will more than likely lose Pavlich (sp) at the end of this season. And as he is not a West Australian like Farmer and Bell(?) they won't be able to pick him back up agaion in 5 years' time. Apparently Pav is their lynchpin and if he goes, watch out for another 3 bad years at Freo.

That said, I hope they keep him, because I like the Dockers as a club, but their supporters, well....

Three More Posts to 100.

 

[Satay Mat]

IMHO trading picks can be a good strategy.

What is the problem with a number 1 pick ?....uncertaintly. You actually canot be sure that the player you pick is going to be a top 5 player in your club in 3 or 4 years time. The best player may go at number 5 or 12 or 25.

What you get in trading picks is certainty. If you traded the top pick for Pavlich (say), then broadley speaking you know how good he is. Yes, he could do a knee pre-season but so could your number 1 pick so injuries do not come into it.

Pavlich is a good example of a high pick who has lived up to it, so if you can get one of those then trade away.

IMHO Carlton trading for anyone over 24 is a waste of time. Injuries aside your list is still going backwards as Ratten, McKay, Bradley et al retire, so you will not be a serious flag threat for at least 5 years. In this scenarios a 26 year old will keep you competitive but not win you the flag. A gun 21 year old though will be in his prime when the rest of the list comes good.

Also, you can consider what Port did a few years back. Trade twice to reduce your 1st round pick....trade the number 1 pick to Freo for example, get Pav and then trade again for someone else's 1st round pick.....you may only end up with pick 12 but you are still in the hunt and there is not much between pick 1 and pick 12 in most drafts.

Go against the flow I say....everyone follows the approach of signing youth, adding a few established players as the list dvelopes, trade for a star to take you the next step, trade for hacks to keep you competitive and then start again.


I would trade.

Satay Mat

 

[dogboy23]

It is dangerous to choose one way or the other without seeing what is available first IMO.I am pretty sure your recruiting officer has said he and the clubs philosophy when drafting is to go for footballers(ie ball magnet types not athletes who play footy) with good footy smarts and the ability to win there own ball(makes sense when you look at your game plan).There are very few top 2 draft picks these days who fit that mould so it will be extremely interesting to see which way you guys go.I think you will know a hell of alot more after the u/18 championships this week.Daniel Wells from Peel Thunder looks a top 5 pick and besides him we are really waiting to see who else puts there hand up so my gut feeling is you will probably trade if there is a decent player available.

 

[LordLucifer]

Originally posted by Fat Red
I still think Essendon are a good model, despite the 1 premiership.

When did Essendon last rebuild? IMO, not in the last 20 years. The "Baby Bombers" was forced on them by the aging of the mid-80s team.

What they have done since then is to manage their list so that they continually have young players pushing up, and then plugging a few holes, but in a way that keeps the list balanced.

There is no reason IMO that you can't build a list this way, but you have to keep using some of your draft picks on youth every year. And then you have to actually give the kids a game, which is the main area I think Carlton has gone wrong.

Our young players haven't had enough chances to prove themselves. If Mark McGough or even Chris Judd had been recruited by Carlton in the 90s they would have cooled their heels in the 2s for 2 years. Lance was an exception being a key position player who was "ready".

This post really is the essence of what drafting & recruiting is all about. You have to keep pushing in young guys at the bottom and trade off those in the 27-28yo bracket who still have some worth for some more draft picks. Occassionally you will have to do a trade if a glaring deficiency arises but it is not an every year occurence.

When you do get some young kids, play them for christs sake, and not all at the same time either. How else are they going to learn the game or their ability be judged if they aren't ??