Drafting hindsight

[Hello Newman!]

With all the recent talk of our history of terrible recruiting, taking into account the trades we've also utilised (and what year they were drafted in), this is how our current list stacks up from each draft in recent history. It also shows why Wallace/Miller & co. have recently needed to top up in certain years with trades etc.
(R.E = Rookie elevation)

1992
F/S Matthew Richardson

1993
1. Darren Gaspar

1994
Pass

1995
27. Kane Johnson
F/S Joel Bowden

1996
10. Nathan Brown

1997
Pass

1998
79. Ray Hall
R.E. Greg Tivendale

1999
PSD. Troy Simmonds
58. Patrick Bowden
R.E. Kent Kingsley
R.E. Trent Knobel

2000
9. Kayne Pettifer
25. Mark Coughlan
40. Chris Hyde
41. Andrew Krakouer
55. Chris Newman

2001
4. Graham Polak

2002
12. Jay Schulz

2003
53. Daniel Jackson
70. Brent Hartigan
73. Shane Tuck
76. Andrew Raines

2004
1. Brett Deledio
4. Richard Tambling
12. Danny Meyer
16. Adam Pattison
20. Dean Polo
36. Luke McGuane
R.E. Kelvin Moore

2005
8. Jarrad Oakley-Nicholls
24. Cleve Hughes
40. Travis Casserly
R.E. Nathan Foley
R.E. Will Thursfield

2006
PSD Matthew White
13. Jack Reiwoldt
26. Shane Edwards
58. Daniel Connors
60. Carl Petterson
73. Andrew Collins

 

[PLSC]

lol at gaspar and the no 1 draft pick

there is too many late draft picks for their to be any real talent on the list, you might find your odd gem late in the piece but for me there isnt that quality of first or secound rounders

96-99 and 01-03 are very, very painful

 

[HBK619]

lol at gaspar and the no 1 draft pick

there is too many late draft picks for their to be any real talent on the list, you might find your odd gem late in the piece but for me there isnt that quality of first or secound rounders

96-99 and 01-03 are very, very painful

Have you not seen any of Gaspars carrer?

He has been a fantastic Full-Back for us, he has been an All-Australian and IMO certainly justified his No.1 Pick, even though it wasn't ours in the first place.

BTW how many All-Australians have you won PLSC???

 

[Weaver]

lol at gaspar and the no 1 draft pick

Again someone just looks at one pick in isolation.

1. Gaspar
2. N. Lappin
3. J. Murphy
4. G. Gorman
5. A. Heuskes
6. T. Cummings
7. Chris Johnson
8. M. Frost
9. R. Warfe
10. T. Ormand-Allan
11. Brad Johnson
12. Christ Scott
13. D. Ugrinic
14. Adam Simpson
15. L. McCabe
16. F. Gehrig
17. A. Lekkas
18. S. Beaumont
19. R. Stevenson
20. W. Chapman
...
40. M.Lappin
46. D.King
49. S.Garlick

Gaspar was clearly one of the top-10 players in his draft. Vies with Gehrig as the best bigman. Gehrig's early career was rubbish and has finished well, Gaspar was good early and has tailed off. Can't really argue with Gaspar as a top-3 pick.

 

[turtle27]

lol at gaspar and the no 1 draft pick

there is too many late draft picks for their to be any real talent on the list, you might find your odd gem late in the piece but for me there isnt that quality of first or secound rounders

96-99 and 01-03 are very, very painful

96-99 has turned out to be woeful. But we did we did get Tucky and Raines at picks 73 and 76 in 03.

 

[Haggard H]

Again someone just looks at one pick in isolation.

Gaspar was clearly one of the top-10 players in his draft. Vies with Gehrig as the best bigman. Gehrig's early career was rubbish and has finished well, Gaspar was good early and has tailed off. Can't really argue with Gaspar as a top-3 pick.

Personally I'm sick of people giving us grief over our draft history - there's crap and there's gold - but as Weaver says, you can't look at picks in isolation.

Pettifer, and the club and the rest of us by default, copped it from all angles for being a dud number 9 until the last year or two, but of the eight guys taken ahead of him 3 no longer play (Livingston, Angwin and Dylan Smith), one's changed clubs in desperation trying to get a game (McDougall) and another (Daniel Motlop) is behind Pett's and probably in a make or break year at his second club. Only the top 3 - Riewoldt, Ko****zke and Didak - stand above him, and all 3 have had their fair share of problems.

Now I'm grabbing one pick in isolation, but other picks we've been criticised for are not necessarily as rotten as considered: the legendary "Fiora ahead of Pavlich" pick in 99 wasn't brilliant, but it was better than Cupido at pick 6, Danny Roach at pick 7 or Cayden Beetham at 9. And since we've trade him for Troy Simmonds that original pick is starting to give some genuine value.

Sure we could have had Pavlich, but 15 other clubs could have taken Raines or Newman or Tuck or Coughlan ahead of us. By the end of 2001 the football world was laughing at us for taking Coughlan rather than using the pick as a father-son to get Jason Cloke, but maybe we weren't so stupid after all.

Some are right, some are wrong - just like every other club, but unfortunately our poor standing over the past 25 years makes everyone only see the negatives and not bother looking any deeper.

That's going to happen, nothing we can do about it but start gaining respect by winning games and playing finals, but those of us in the yellow and black should be pointing out the positives and doing what we can to restore the pride of the club.

Don't believe the hype - start making your own.

 

[Goldust]

Personally I'm sick of people giving us grief over our draft history - there's crap and there's gold - but as Weaver says, you can't look at picks in isolation.

Pettifer, and the club and the rest of us by default, copped it from all angles for being a dud number 9 until the last year or two, but of the eight guys taken ahead of him 3 no longer play (Livingston, Angwin and Dylan Smith), one's changed clubs in desperation trying to get a game (McDougall) and another (Daniel Motlop) is behind Pett's and probably in a make or break year at his second club. Only the top 3 - Riewoldt, Ko****zke and Didak - stand above him, and all 3 have had their fair share of problems.

Now I'm grabbing one pick in isolation, but other picks we've been criticised for are not necessarily as rotten as considered: the legendary "Fiora ahead of Pavlich" pick in 99 wasn't brilliant, but it was better than Cupido at pick 6, Danny Roach at pick 7 or Cayden Beetham at 9. And since we've trade him for Troy Simmonds that original pick is starting to give some genuine value.

Sure we could have had Pavlich, but 15 other clubs could have taken Raines or Newman or Tuck or Coughlan ahead of us. By the end of 2001 the football world was laughing at us for taking Coughlan rather than using the pick as a father-son to get Jason Cloke, but maybe we weren't so stupid after all.

Some are right, some are wrong - just like every other club, but unfortunately our poor standing over the past 25 years makes everyone only see the negatives and not bother looking any deeper.

That's going to happen, nothing we can do about it but start gaining respect by winning games and playing finals, but those of us in the yellow and black should be pointing out the positives and doing what we can to restore the pride of the club.

Don't believe the hype - start making your own.

RIGHT on. Couldn't agree more Hag!
Sure the Fiora-Pavlich one haunts us to a degree, but Fiora ahead of the likes of Beetham and Roach is a masterstroke.
There are never any guarantees when it comes to drafting. As was the case with Pettifer, I think it was more a case of his coach (Frawley...that name again) not giving him a chance, opting to go with the likes of Houlihan instead! Interesting that Wallace would have picked him at the Bulldogs and then came in and gave Petts a chance. The rest is history.

I like to put a different spin on things (don't I always...good old Goldy from left field for a change). The likes of Essendon might boast of their genius at picking Hird at pick 79. But was it? The way I look at it, the Bombers had four picks before they even selected Hird. Yes it worked well in hindsight, but they felt there was at least four better players available to the club (and who knows how many others that lande at other clubs).

Coughlan over Cloke....genius!!!

 

[astro_toby]

the selections themselves of recent years have been fairly good, i think they major issue is just a lack of genuinely good early picks - which is a result of our club rarely "tanking" late in the season to reap the benefits of early picks - as frustrating as it may be, i'm not upset we did. our club sometimes proabably has more pride for its own good, and will always try to save face, which has probably cost us quite a few top 5 picks and genuine superstars - thats what hurt us.

the actual picks we have used, except for a few years, have been good

 

[PLSC]

Have you not seen any of Gaspars carrer?

He has been a fantastic Full-Back for us, he has been an All-Australian and IMO certainly justified his No.1 Pick, even though it wasn't ours in the first place.

BTW how many All-Australians have you won PLSC???

all im saying is that a player like gaspar would only dream of being a no 1 pick nowadays

also tuck and raines were lucky picks in late 03 but id like to think 2 good players is a minimum for each club in a draft, it was still a poor

haha at me agreeing with tobez

 

[Hello Newman!]

all im saying is that a player like gaspar would only dream of being a no 1 pick nowadays

also tuck and raines were lucky picks in late 03 but id like to think 2 good players is a minimum for each club in a draft, it was still a poor

haha at me agreeing with tobez

Agreed, that's why our next serious assault at the premiership should be with the view of using the 2000 crop as the core 'older' base. Before then there is too few quality players kept from each draft and therefore current age range. One of the next priorities should be to top up with at least one more quality player from the 2001-2002 draft age range which gives us an awesome platform for consistent finals appearances from 2009+

If we could snag a Bartel/Reilly/Kelly and a Salopek/Schammer/Selwood/Simpson/Selwood which isn't too unrealistic, that would be a huge shot in the arm for the future of the club, rather than now stocking up with anymore pre 2000 players.

Wishful thinking, I know

 

[LVAK]

I don't think it's our kid selections that have been so bad , moreso the 'topping up' thinking that we are one push away from the flag .

You can go through every team and there will be howlers. Not long ago Freo was the laughing stock regarding drafting ( but it was mostly trading ) and look at them now.

It's the misreading of where we're at and the Fleming, Nicholls, Hudson kind of thing that was so frustrating

 

[Goldust]

all im saying is that a player like gaspar would only dream of being a no 1 pick nowadays
also tuck and raines were lucky picks in late 03 but id like to think 2 good players is a minimum for each club in a draft, it was still a poor

haha at me agreeing with tobez

Number one draft picks.


1986 - Martin Leslie (Brisbane Bears)
1987 - Richard Lounder (Richmond)
1988 - Alex McDonald (Hawthorn)
1989 - Anthony Banik (Richmond)
1990 - Stephen Hooper (Geelong)
1991 - John Hutton (Brisbane)
1992 - Drew Banfield (West Coast)
1993 - Darren Gaspar (Sydney)
1994 - Jeff White (Fremantle)
1995 - Clive Waterhouse (Fremantle)
1996 - Michael Gardiner (West Coast)
1997 - Travis Johnstone (Melbourne)
1998 - Des Headland (Brisbane Lions)
1999 - Josh Fraser (Collingwood)
2000 - Nick Riewoldt (St Kilda)
2001 - Luke Hodge (Hawthorn)
2002 - Brendon Goddard (St Kilda)
2003 - Adam Cooney (Western Bulldogs)
2004 - Brett Deledio (Richmond)
2005 - Marc Murphy (Carlton)
2006 - Bryce Gibbs (Carlton)


Maybe so, but Gaspar was a far better selection than Leslie, Lounder, McDonald, Banik, Hutton, Waterhouse, Gardiner, Headland....

Give him his due...the guy has had a good career. Kicking never got any better, but can still stop some of the game's top forwards!

 

[astro_toby]

my god people have short memories. gaspar may struggle now, injuries and the changing demands of "modern" football (brought along by constant rule changes) have much to do with that - but for a major part of his career - he was in the the top 3-4 full backs in the league - WITHOUT QUESTION.

he got an all australian to prove it

he got a B & F to prove it (in a year we finished top 4, not a year where we won a spoon)

The way many apparently loyal supporters - who all claim to have seen every match since the second they were born - act as if this guy is, was, and forever will be a dud is shocking - pay some bloody respect to th bloke and defend your own! don't eat them.

****ing elephant memories - all of you! all of you!

 

[Goldust]

my god people have short memories. gaspar may struggle now, injuries and the changing demands of "modern" football (brought along by constant rule changes) have much to do with that - but for a major part of his career - he was in the the top 3-4 full backs in the league - WITHOUT QUESTION.

he got an all australian to prove it

he got a B & F to prove it (in a year we finished top 4, not a year where we won a spoon)

The way many apparently loyal supporters - who all claim to have seen every match since the second they were born - act as if this guy is, was, and forever will be a dud is shocking - pay some bloody respect to th bloke and defend your own! don't eat them.

****ing elephant memories - all of you! all of you!

GOTTA agree. Gaspar has been good for Richmond. We have got a lot of good years out of him. No defender with size has done better than him thorughout his time with the Tigers.
Some say he struggled last year. That obviously has to do with the number of game splayed as his form in the games he did play was none too bad!

 

[PLSC]

give me a ****ing break

the guy is a joke who had 1 good year and ripped the club off by getting himself a healthy contract

was never able to kick and shows about as much leadership on a football field as an 18 year old

good luck to the guy he did well for himself doesnt change the fact we are meant to be rebuilding and opposition supporters laugh when he is embarrassing us at full back

dud

 

[lids2004roar]

give me a ****ing break

the guy is a joke who had 1 good year and ripped the club off by getting himself a healthy contract

was never able to kick and shows about as much leadership on a football field as an 18 year old

good luck to the guy he did well for himself doesnt change the fact we are meant to be rebuilding and opposition supporters laugh when he is embarrassing us at full back

dud

You do support the players so good on you for that, but your opinion is just plain dead 100% wrong. One good year? He performed at an elite level for a majority of his career. He was one of the best FBs of the past 10 years and has only dropped off in the last couple since his knee injury.

If Scarlet did a knee in 2 years time and never fully recovers, will you say he was a dud FB except for one good year too?

You're just always angry. Always. You say you "tell it like it is" when you just make up crap and hope somebody out there is in a bad enough mood to actually believe you. Gaspar WAS a gun for many years and he took a substantial pay cut for the club and it's supporters because he knew he was not worthy of big dollars anymore. Think of the Deledios and the Polos in the team who will look up to that kind of club commitment where the team comes before money.

Look at these boards prior to 2004 and everyone was describing Gaspar as a "champion".



Btw you people really need to stop judging an entire career in TWO YEARS.

Tambling is a dud because of 2 years with injuries. Gaspar is a dud because of 2 years after injury. JON is a dud in just 1 year.

Get some perspective.



These dashes represent ONE year of a career. I'll put brackets around the years they didn't do well:


Tambling so far has gone (-) (-) - - - - - - - - - - - -

Gaspar Something like - - - - - - - - - - - - - (-) (-) (?)

JON probably be (-) (-) - - - - - - - - - - - -



Good service to a club doesn't mean they need to deliver elite football every year of their career.

 

[PLSC]

sounds like someone bought themselves a gaspar badge at the family day and cant handle it when the dud gets what he deserves

pay cut? yeh real big from 500k to 400k

if he was a hack who loved a biff or showed some leadership i could take it but the fact that he is crap and also a girl is a joke

also dont bring up the kids to fluff up your post

 

[Weaver]

Number one draft picks.

1987 - Richard Lounder (Richmond)

Maybe so, but Gaspar was a far better selection than Leslie, Lounder, McDonald, Banik, Hutton, Waterhouse, Gardiner, Headland....

Gaspar was a far better player than Lounder. But contrary to what people might think Lounder was hardly the horrendous pick that most believe.

1. Lounder
2. Chris McDermott (Brisbane - wasted pick he didn't sign a contract)
3. Graham Wright
4. Brockhurst
5. Quirk
6. A. Rogers
7. D. Davies
8. D. Jones
9. M. Murphy
10. Parsons
11. McNeill
12. Grant Williams
13. Bubner

Basically only 4 good players came out of that draft ... Wright, Tingay, Obst and Benny Gale. And we at least got one of them.

 

[lids2004roar]

sounds like someone bought themselves a gaspar badge at the family day and cant handle it when the dud gets what he deserves

pay cut? yeh real big from 500k to 400k

if he was a hack who loved a biff or showed some leadership i could take it but the fact that he is crap and also a girl is a joke

also dont bring up the kids to fluff up your post

By no means do I think Gaspar is a great player anymore, he looks like he may struggle. It's when people say he has always struggled when it is just false.

FWIW last year he played 3-4 games at his old best before getting injured. IF he plays to that standard all year without injuries then I would be happy.

He was in the leadership group, so I'd like to think that behind the scenes he shows some. It isn't obvious on the field though, but it's hard to lead when you're at FB....

 

[sante]

PLSC are you 12?

I'm 18 and even I saw Gaspar at his best and back then, when I was a young teenager and had no Foxtel, I never saw us but I still remember Gas as being touted as the #1 FB in the league at one stage.

 

[Simche]

Whilst Gasper has been good for us this ended when he did his knee (lost that crucial yard of pace). As much as no one here likes to admit it football is not a sentimental game and people's memories only stretch back a year or two generally but this is not the case with us due to a lack of finals. Realistically Gaspar has been poor for awhile lately. His previous service is no exucse for this and in my opinion this has been one of the problems with the Richmond football club for awhile. We reward a years good performance with a fantastic contract and then get the worst of the deal. We are absolutely shocking at realising when to move a player on. 2001 was a pivotal year for us. Gasper was desperate to head back west and Ben Holland had us over a barrel wanting more money. With the benefit of hindsight we should've given both away for top 20 draft picks (which sadly they commanded at the time) instead we thought we were on the gusp of greatness but thats the way the world works I suppose. Instead we reward both for their 'loyalty' with overpriced overlong contracts that are hard to lay off and hit the bottom four. Realistically I acknowledge Gaspers service but we owe him no favours in terms of laying off the abuse (this goes for everyone on the list) basically its a year to year thing we are far too patient waiting for OLDER players to perform as far as I'm concerned you wait til the age of 23 if they haven't shown they're GOOD quality then get the best deal you can for them (nature of modern footy is that you can't afford the investment of sticking em in the ressies for 4 seasons to wait for them to mature, some just don't put on weight and exp problems etc.). Funnily enough Gasper did not fall into this category and when he went down he lost any value he had thus he always should've been kept. This is more relevant to the current crop. For the poster above both Krakouer and Tivendale will NEVER play in a premiership team and this applies to a significantly high proportion of our current first team and should thus be moved on for the best deal we can recieve.

 

[Bentleigh]

No point talking about 1798. Might as well look at the somewhat recent future.

2004 is what is going to make our brake this club. We didn't get to rebuild over a number of seasons but we did have a big effort in '04 with 5 top 20 picks. If we are going to ever be any good the side is going to be based around that crop.

If Deledio & Tambling become the player they are capable of, future top teir midfeilders, Polo goes at a similar level, with McGaune/Thusty being out future rocks down back and Meyer stepping up - then we might be ok.

 

[Haggard H]

Benny, Sante, Goldust et al - in future could you please edit all logic and impartiality out of your posts. This site is for emotion based, hot headed, short memoried, even shorter pen1ses, argumentative comments only.

If you're going to make sense do it on some other club site where the supporters are not looked upon as cannibalistic morons. We have a reputation to uphold.

 

[Goldust]

Gaspar was a far better player than Lounder. But contrary to what people might think Lounder was hardly the horrendous pick that most believe.

1. Lounder
2. Chris McDermott (Brisbane - wasted pick he didn't sign a contract)
3. Graham Wright
4. Brockhurst
5. Quirk
6. A. Rogers
7. D. Davies
8. D. Jones
9. M. Murphy
10. Parsons
11. McNeill
12. Grant Williams
13. Bubner

Basically only 4 good players came out of that draft ... Wright, Tingay, Obst and Benny Gale. And we at least got one of them.

Sorry Weave, but seven or eight seasons of Andrew Rogers (pick 6), or even Parsons or Brockhurst would have been better than the one decent game (out of four career games) that we got from Lounder!
Agree, the draft was not strong, but I don't think anyone else was even remotely interested in Lounder and we soon saw why. The only reason he kicked four on debut was because North Melbiourne persisted by playing three foot three John Law on him.
Peter Bubner at pick 13 was a better player fthan Lounder from the same time and would have suited our needs far greater - a full back! It was a poor, poor pick. Of the four you mentioned - Wright, Obst, Tingay and Benny Gale - alf four were availoable at pick number one.

 

[PLSC]

Benny, Sante, Goldust et al - in future could you please edit all logic and impartiality out of your posts. This site is for emotion based, hot headed, short memoried, even shorter pen1ses, argumentative comments only.

If you're going to make sense do it on some other club site where the supporters are not looked upon as cannibalistic morons. We have a reputation to uphold.

reputation

back in your box muppet