EPL Matchday 3

[SM]

There is nothing wrong with a winning style of football.

What a controversial opinion.

 

[moomba]

They've made such a big deal of "the United way" over the years I don't think functional football was ever going to be accepted long term. I think the type of football Liverpool and City are playing is making it much harder for United supporters to accept Mourinho's pragmatism.

So much of "the United way" has gone to shit over the past few years I guess.

 

[Sozabarus]

They've made such a big deal of "the United way" over the years I don't think functional football was ever going to be accepted long term. I think the type of football Liverpool and City are playing is making it much harder for United supporters to accept Mourinho's pragmatism.

So much of "the United way" has gone to shit over the past few years I guess.

They've already done the Chelsea, City and Liverpool ones.

 

[99 Problems]

There is nothing wrong with a winning style of football.

What a controversial opinion.

Was a point against those who said no club would touch Mourinho because of his style, which is flat out wrong.

 

[SM]

Was a point against those who said no club would touch Mourinho because of his style, which is flat out wrong.

No big club, no.

 

[99 Problems]

No big club, no.

Man Utd, Madrid, Inter, Chelsea aren’t big clubs? He’s played the same style of football the whole way through yet big clubs keep signing him. Trophies trump everything else.

 

[SM]

Man Utd, Madrid, Inter, Chelsea aren’t big clubs? He’s played the same style of football the whole way through yet big clubs keep signing him. Trophies trump everything else.

Past tense, they won't sign him anymore after implosions at United and Chelsea.

 

[99 Problems]

Past tense, they won't sign him anymore after implosions at United and Chelsea.

He’s had an implosion everywhere except Inter. Each club knew what they were getting, but still decide he’s worth the risk. A club like PSG wouldn’t care how he did it if he could bring them the champions league. An Italian side would take the risk to try and bring them a serie A title.

 

[SM]

He’s had an implosion everywhere except Inter. Each club knew what they were getting, but still decide he’s worth the risk. A club like PSG wouldn’t care how he did it if he could bring them the champions league. An Italian side would take the risk to try and bring them a serie A title.

Not on the same scale.

 

[99 Problems]

Not on the same scale.

The same thing is said every time. Even when he left Madrid people said it was the worst year of his career and he wouldn’t get another top job. PSG, either Milan side, or even a return to Madrid would be options for him if things go bad enough at any of those clubs to make them look at a change of manager. Then there’s a bunch of national teams that would be offering him a job if he wanted to go down that road.

 

[jod23]

Mourinho is different now though. Everybody changes with age. Now he looks bitter and twisted. His time at the top may be coming to an end. Or at the very least, he might need two or three years away from management to rediscover his love of the game.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Mourinho is different now though. Everybody changes with age. Now he looks bitter and twisted. His time at the top may be coming to an end. Or at the very least, he might need two or three years away from management to rediscover his love of the game.

I think the mojo has gone. I don't think he has either the players or fans onside. I was at Old Trafford for the Leicester game. United looked really positive and scored early. But then 5 minutes and 1 nil up they sat back and allowed Leicester to control the play. United were lucky to get the win then have lost to Brighton and heavily to Spurs.

 

[smokingjacket]

There is nothing wrong with a winning style of football.

What a controversial opinion.

so controversial, yet so brave.

 

[smokingjacket]

He’s had an implosion everywhere except Inter. Each club knew what they were getting, but still decide he’s worth the risk. A club like PSG wouldn’t care how he did it if he could bring them the champions league. An Italian side would take the risk to try and bring them a serie A title.

It's much harder for a Mourinho team to win the CL or even a league these days though. He came second to Pep with a squad that has roughly the same CL and PL experience in it, the second best, and deepest squad in the PL and went out of the CL to Sevilla. The problem with his style is the defensive aspects leave a certain amount of variance in all games. 1-0 can become 1-1 with a lucky shot, defensive mistake, goalkeeper error. The teams that Pep, Poch and Klopp have constructed, and Sarri has moulded, are all about overwhelming their opponents with various forms of attacking play to reduce the role of luck in getting wins. Last week in a game most people thought Liverpool struggled to 1-0 in, we still had 22 shots to 6 and generated 1.9xG to .57xG. The fact that his teams don't press aggressively to get the ball back and rely on the midblock defence gives too much control to opposition who aren't afraid of the ball and hoof into a channel first chance they get. It's the same reason why Wenger was struggling in the new English football. Everyone wants to and will hold the ball now if you let them. You need to actively take it off them.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

It's much harder for a Mourinho team to win the CL or even a league these days though. He came second to Pep with a squad that has roughly the same CL and PL experience in it, the second best, and deepest squad in the PL and went out of the CL to Sevilla. The problem with his style is the defensive aspects leave a certain amount of variance in all games. 1-0 can become 1-1 with a lucky shot, defensive mistake, goalkeeper error. The teams that Pep, Poch and Klopp have constructed, and Sarri has moulded, are all about overwhelming their opponents with various forms of attacking play to reduce the role of luck in getting wins. Last week in a game most people thought Liverpool struggled to 1-0 in, we still had 22 shots to 6 and generated 1.9xG to .57xG. The fact that his teams don't press aggressively to get the ball back and rely on the midblock defence gives too much control to opposition who aren't afraid of the ball and hoof into a channel first chance they get. It's the same reason why Wenger was struggling in the new English football. Everyone wants to and will hold the ball now if you let them. You need to actively take it off them.

United lack an ethos. A clear plan of how they want to play. It changes from game to game.

In many ways they approach games like weekly cup finals. Adjusting tactics and formation to suit the opposition, and merely just grind out a result.

Whereas their rivals all have clear plans and styles.
Liverpool is about gegenpressing and has a great front 3.
City is all about technical ability, so much so they’ve changed the academy system to favour technical players.
Time will tell how Sarri and Emery alter Chelsea and Arsenal.
Poch has Spurs playing somewhat as you say with the emphasis on pressing, but also has the point of difference in that he’s building a squad that can seemlessly change formation within game. Can go from 3-4 at the back, can play about 4-5 formations proficiently and whilst still adhering to the press philosophy.

United don’t have that. They don’t even appear to have a clear vision of what they want from signings.
It’s a team that without prolific wingers is crying out for 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 diamond... Yet that relies on fullbacks and theirs collectively are average. They have 4 strikers yet he’s only using one of them.

He’s bought a couple of centrehalves yet seems to have no faith in either, would rather play Herrera in a back 3 than either Lindelof or Bailly. How much confidence does that give them, and more importantly Ed Woodward.

He’s backed Jose in the market a lot yet who has improved under his management? Wouldn’t be many. Can’t get the most out of experienced pros, not great at developing youth. Maybe Woodward has decided to tighten the purse strings and bide time until José departs.

 

[99 Problems]

It's much harder for a Mourinho team to win the CL or even a league these days though. He came second to Pep with a squad that has roughly the same CL and PL experience in it, the second best, and deepest squad in the PL and went out of the CL to Sevilla. The problem with his style is the defensive aspects leave a certain amount of variance in all games. 1-0 can become 1-1 with a lucky shot, defensive mistake, goalkeeper error. The teams that Pep, Poch and Klopp have constructed, and Sarri has moulded, are all about overwhelming their opponents with various forms of attacking play to reduce the role of luck in getting wins. Last week in a game most people thought Liverpool struggled to 1-0 in, we still had 22 shots to 6 and generated 1.9xG to .57xG. The fact that his teams don't press aggressively to get the ball back and rely on the midblock defence gives too much control to opposition who aren't afraid of the ball and hoof into a channel first chance they get. It's the same reason why Wenger was struggling in the new English football. Everyone wants to and will hold the ball now if you let them. You need to actively take it off them.

I wouldn’t disagree with any of that. My main point was that there will be big clubs who are willing to take the risk for a proven record of winning trophies. I don’t think he’s anywhere near the manager he once was, but he’s still got enough in him to find some sort of short term success (like the Europa league), which some clubs will be desperate for.

My other point is his time at United hasn’t been that bad compared to how it’s been reported. If he left at the end of last season his stint would be considered a success. Of course that changes very quickly if this keeps going the way it is, which history says it will. Personally I’d be showing him the door if they aren’t in the top 4 come the start of November, especially with a figure like Zidane appearing a realistic option right now.

 

[smokingjacket]

United lack an ethos. A clear plan of how they want to play. It changes from game to game.

In many ways they approach games like weekly cup finals. Adjusting tactics and formation to suit the opposition, and merely just grind out a result.

Whereas their rivals all have clear plans and styles.
Liverpool is about gegenpressing and has a great front 3.
City is all about technical ability, so much so they’ve changed the academy system to favour technical players.
Time will tell how Sarri and Emery alter Chelsea and Arsenal.
Poch has Spurs playing somewhat as you say with the emphasis on pressing, but also has the point of difference in that he’s building a squad that can seemlessly change formation within game. Can go from 3-4 at the back, can play about 4-5 formations proficiently and whilst still adhering to the press philosophy.

United don’t have that. They don’t even appear to have a clear vision of what they want from signings.
It’s a team that without prolific wingers is crying out for 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 diamond... Yet that relies on fullbacks and theirs collectively are average. They have 4 strikers yet he’s only using one of them.

He’s bought a couple of centrehalves yet seems to have no faith in either, would rather play Herrera in a back 3 than either Lindelof or Bailly. How much confidence does that give them, and more importantly Ed Woodward.

He’s backed Jose in the market a lot yet who has improved under his management? Wouldn’t be many. Can’t get the most out of experienced pros, not great at developing youth. Maybe Woodward has decided to tighten the purse strings and bide time until José departs.

Well the only thing I would argue about that is I think United do have a clear style but I don't think people like it. Jose has been playing a pretty similar system to Deschamps with France in the World Cup with a similar level of thrill for the neutral.

It's interesting what you say about the game against Leicester because that felt very Serie A in terms of being very slow and controlled in possession from both teams and Mourinho was playing a sort of lopsided diamond with Mata at the top and I thought that actually suited them quite well as a team, they looked very stable tactically. But afterwards they came in for a lot of criticism from the supporters who wanted more pace on the ball, pressing and more direct play, which I don't think this team is able to do at the moment. After that Jose tried to tinker with the team a bit but it's not really happening.


The thing is, they could bring in Zidane and he will deliver them some at times pretty possession football and maybe higher pressing but I don't think it's going to be as high-octane as the fans want. Zidane's RM diamond had a lot of slow movement and controlled possession to open up gaps for Ronaldo's incredible movement. Really they want Klopp football and Jose tried to give it to them for 20 minutes at the start of the Tottenham game before they ran out of legs.

I agree with you though, some version of that 4-4-2 diamond does look like their best formation. The only problem is, you need to play slow in that formation because it's super vulnerable to counterattacks on the wings. Also broadly agree with the lack of improvement in signings, maybe apart from Jesse Lingard but the number of players going backwards dramatically more than offsets it.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

Holy shit Seri what a bolter!

Right in front of me.

RIGHT. IN FRONT. OF ME.