Excuses

[Bird Man]

Just wondering, say if we were to have the same season we did last year or even worse .. Can Hardwick use the same excuses he did last year?

Personally its not hardwick but i am sick and tired of teh "Were still a young side .. but eventually will get better" excuse.

Thoughts?

 

[partycorolla]

Just wondering, say if we were to have the same season we did last year or even worse .. Can Hardwick use the same excuses he did last year?

Personally its not hardwick but i am sick and tired of teh "Were still a young side .. but eventually will get better" excuse.

Thoughts?

Carlton used it for multiple years, Melb for a few and the Hawks when they were developing.... it's not an excuse, it's a reason, a legitimate one. I would say that last season was a heap better than 09.... because of our youth...

 

[Hipster Doofus]

Carlton used it for multiple years, Melb for a few and the Hawks when they were developing.... it's not an excuse, it's a reason, a legitimate one. I would say that last season was a heap better than 09.... because of our youth...

Gotta agree with this

 

[SA TIGER]

Just wondering, say if we were to have the same season we did last year or even worse .. Can Hardwick use the same excuses he did last year?

Personally its not hardwick but i am sick and tired of teh "Were still a young side .. but eventually will get better" excuse.

Thoughts?

Your comment about Hardwicj using excuses is weak as p!ss IMO.

For goodness sake, it is only his 2nd season with one of the youngest sides in the comp.

The classic definition of 'excuse' was iminent in the last couple of seasons with Wallace at the helm!

 

[Ralll]

I think we have to keep turning the list over until we have the high skilled group that can grow into a top quality football team over time. Unless the new draftees/trades are all guns we will probably be in this same position this time next season.
Im hoping we start to see a solid gameplan based around a selfless team culture that new draftees can pick up on straight away. Whether that means more wins this year or not dosnt bother me. This will be my barometer for improvement this season.

 

[santa claws]

i dont believe its our youth that is targeted around here. most who cop criticism have been around awhile.

youth is not our problem and for sure some of our younger players wont make it.
our problem is the older types.

the only real choice we have is to keep on drafting kids and hope as they develop they can take over from the mediocre older types.

we have just 3 players on the list proper who have 100 games experience.
as an example to show how far we have to go and how long it may take if we have drafted well.
collingwood had on gf day i believe 17 players on their list with 100 games or more experience.since then a few have retired and i think the number is down to 15.

imo once we aquire a decent core of juniors or should i say if we ever aquire a decent core of juniors we will have no choice down the track 2 or 3 seasons but to go out and and get some mature footballers.

our 100 plus gamers newman in 2 or 3 seasons will probably be gone tuck as well. it leaves deledio.

to highlight how hard this task may be the players who have more than 50 games to their credit and should become the experienced 100 game plus core in the next few yrs in the main look ordinary.
white thursfield morton riewoldt moore mcguane king jackson foley edwards. with the exception of jack and foley the rest have knocks on them in one shape or another.is this a senior core capable of taking us to finals yet alone a gf.

when our better kids get 80 100 games behind them and come thru hopefully the excuses will stop.

 

[The Goon]

i dont believe its our youth that is targeted around here. most who cop criticism have been around awhile.

youth is not our problem and for sure some of our younger players wont make it.
our problem is the older types.

the only real choice we have is to keep on drafting kids and hope as they develop they can take over from the mediocre older types.

we have just 3 players on the list proper who have 100 games experience.
as an example to show how far we have to go and how long it may take if we have drafted well.
collingwood had on gf day i believe 17 players on their list with 100 games or more experience.since then a few have retired and i think the number is down to 15.

imo once we aquire a decent core of juniors or should i say if we ever aquire a decent core of juniors we will have no choice down the track 2 or 3 seasons but to go out and and get some mature footballers.

our 100 plus gamers newman in 2 or 3 seasons will probably be gone tuck as well. it leaves deledio.

to highlight how hard this task may be the players who have more than 50 games to their credit and should become the experienced 100 game plus core in the next few yrs in the main look ordinary.
white thursfield morton riewoldt moore mcguane king jackson foley edwards. with the exception of jack and foley the rest have knocks on them in one shape or another.is this a senior core capable of taking us to finals yet alone a gf.

when our better kids get 80 100 games behind them and come thru hopefully the excuses will stop.

Is it really fair though to make judgements on these 50-100 game players based on the last few years? They have been playing in a team that's been getting smashed week in week out. Under Wallace they were raw recruits surrounded by spuds and players on their last legs. Last year they were surrounded by kids even less experienced than they are. Neither scenario really shows what you are capable of contributing in a well balanced team.

For example it's easy to forget that Jack was on 46 games at the start of the year and regarded as a third forward. As the circumstances around him changed he was able to shine.

In the last 2 years out of the 10 players you mentioned 2 have shone. This begs the question what we should actually expect (rather than hope for) from the other recruits. If over the next two years we get another one / two good / very good players from this group, and 2-3 reliable contributers (have their bad weeks and they're not stars, but generally they hold down a role) I think we'll have done well.

No doubt DH will continue to move on those that will not contribute to a premiership, and I predict another 10 player turn-over at the end of this season, but I personally think it's premature to write off those 8.

 

[Parquet Court]

i think the truth of the matter is simply that we are not overly good at the moment. the last 2 seasons have been good at recycling the list although it would have been nice to go that little bit further last season and remove hislop and go for broke with another rookie.

our list still has 4-6 potatos that are still getting regular 1st 22 games, this is a worrying sign for this season but hopefully this will be rectified throughout the season and certainyl by next season

 

[True Thylacine]

our list still has 4-6 potatos that are still getting regular 1st 22 games, this is a worrying sign for this season but hopefully this will be rectified throughout the season and certainyl by next season

Eevery list will always contain 4 spuds, a few mediocres, majority of very good players and a couple of elites. Just how it is. The measure of a great team isnt just who has the better elite players, its who has the better quaility of mediocre and spuds as well. I can think of a few spuds in the Pies side last year, is just a matter of fact, theres lotsa spuds who can claim to be premiership players. 4 or so places in every side are replaceable and in fact given the length of the season we need them for resilience. Its more the quality of the replacements that becomes important.

 

[Parquet Court]

Eevery list will always contain 4 spuds, a few mediocres, majority of very good players and a couple of elites. Just how it is. The measure of a great team isnt just who has the better elite players, its who has the better quaility of mediocre and spuds as well. I can think of a few spuds in the Pies side last year, is just a matter of fact, theres lotsa spuds who can claim to be premiership players. 4 or so places in every side are replaceable and in fact given the length of the season we need them for resilience. Its more the quality of the replacements that becomes important.

good point, but i think that the potatos in collingwood's side and im guessing you are thinking blair, l. brown, davis (1st game)...would still no doubt line up in our side where as our potatos would maybe get a game with west coast.

there are always gash players in a side but ours seem to be the gashest and if you were a harsher critic you could even lift our number to 6 or 8

 

[Grin]

Just wondering, say if we were to have the same season we did last year or even worse .. Can Hardwick use the same excuses he did last year?

Personally its not hardwick but i am sick and tired of teh "Were still a young side .. but eventually will get better" excuse.

Thoughts?

Well I guess we could top up with hacks who might help win us a few extra games in the short term.
But I think that's been tried before.

 

[_RT_]

Given we've turned over another 10 or so players this off season Hardwick has every right to use the same 'excuse'(prefer reason).

Personally, I see this year being almost identical to last year in how we perform. Early on we'll struggle as we try and get a settled lineup on the park. Hardwick will still be pumping games into kids who he believes can take us forward. At the same time it will still be necessary to play some of the spuds to allow us to remain somewhat competitive.

However, once we do get a few games into the kids and they become comfortable at this level our performances will improve and we'll become less reliant on the spuds to maintain a level of competitiveness.

Don't forget we're entering the season with only 3 senior listed players with 100 games and another 10 with 50-99 games experience to their name. Because of this we're only a few injuries away from being a team with practically no experience to fall back on. For example if McGuane Thursfield Riewoldt Moore Miller and Graham were to get injured and had to spend an extended period on the sidelines our KPP/ruck stocks would consist of Vickery(23 games) Rance(25) Astbury(17) Post(14) Browne(5) Griffiths(5) Gourdis(3) Grimes(1) & Derickx(0).

 

[Bird Man]

God! some of you guys missed the ball on this one if you think i am against Hardwick ....

What i was stating, that Hardwick cant hide behind old excuses for a poor preforming side. Now i can understand if we get beaten but we should not get smashed. Its Hardwicks job to pull these players heads in, and preform how they look on paper

 

[CallMeAl]

Just wondering, say if we were to have the same season we did last year or even worse .. Can Hardwick use the same excuses he did last year?

Personally its not hardwick but i am sick and tired of teh "Were still a young side .. but eventually will get better" excuse.

Thoughts?

Could you please explain what you think the difference between an excuse and a reason is?

 

[bigstyletiger]

Given we've turned over another 10 or so players this off season Hardwick has every right to use the same 'excuse'(prefer reason).

Personally, I see this year being almost identical to last year in how we perform. Early on we'll struggle as we try and get a settled lineup on the park. Hardwick will still be pumping games into kids who he believes can take us forward. At the same time it will still be necessary to play some of the spuds to allow us to remain somewhat competitive.

However, once we do get a few games into the kids and they become comfortable at this level our performances will improve and we'll become less reliant on the spuds to maintain a level of competitiveness.

Don't forget we're entering the season with only 3 senior listed players with 100 games and another 10 with 50-99 games experience to their name. Because of this we're only a few injuries away from being a team with practically no experience to fall back on. For example if McGuane Thursfield Riewoldt Moore Miller and Graham were to get injured and had to spend an extended period on the sidelines our KPP/ruck stocks would consist of Vickery(23 games) Rance(25) Astbury(17) Post(14) Browne(5) Griffiths(5) Gourdis(3) Grimes(1) & Derickx(0).

I agree with RT. Fact is we are grossly inexperienced. Adelaide smacked us on the weekend, and without analysing their entire list and who was playing, i think it probably has something to do with the fact that they have pumped plenty of games into their young mids such as Van Berlo, McKay, Vince, Knights, Doughlas, Dangerfield and these guys are probably ready to pay dividends this season.

Couple that with the fact that we had Riewoldt, Lids and Newman in their first/second games of the season, Foley continuing a comeback from the abiss, and Mcguane and then not much else in the way of experience.

 

[AstroboyUK]

Just wondering, say if we were to have the same season we did last year or even worse .. Can Hardwick use the same excuses he did last year?

Personally its not hardwick but i am sick and tired of teh "Were still a young side .. but eventually will get better" excuse.

Thoughts?

I wouldnt be surprised if it 'feels worse' than last year, even if results end up being about the same. The second half of last season was a real morale booster and a bit of a gift to us all: made us like ourselves again.

We could find things a little tougher this year, as clubs work out JAck, and Lids and take more notice generally.. and dont take us as lightly as they did (eg Sydney getting a nasty surprise)... I expect wins to be roughly the same, but more spread out and less feel-good factor when they come.

Having said that: we ARE a young team, we HAVE cleaned out the list, we are in the second year of a 4-5 transistion. These are all legitimate excuses and I thought it was what we all signed up to take on the chin 18months ago. Year 2 will be tough and ugly; and our pleasure has to be in small additions to our foundations that will hold us in good stead in years to come.

 

[docko911]

Just wondering, say if we were to have the same season we did last year or even worse .. Can Hardwick use the same excuses he did last year?

Personally its not hardwick but i am sick and tired of teh "Were still a young side .. but eventually will get better" excuse.

Thoughts?

We're still a young side.... but eventually will get better.

This is not an excuse it is the truth.

We have 13 players who have played 50 or more games. (3-6 should not be in our best side).

We only have 3 players who have played 100 games.

We only have 4 more players who could reach 50 games if we only play the regular season.

In terms of experience we are a young side.

 

[DerpWerls]

We would need to have progressed at a faster rate than any of the other clubs which is unlikely based on our history. Some incredibly optimistic posters on BF, but in reality we are a 2-3 years off seeing some good results. This year will be more disappointing than last year.
I couldn't disagree with the OP any more though, what do you propose we sack Hardwick and trade in a bunch of old hacks? It wouldn't even help in the short term.

 

[santa claws]

Is it really fair though to make judgements on these 50-100 game players based on the last few years? They have been playing in a team that's been getting smashed week in week out. Under Wallace they were raw recruits surrounded by spuds and players on their last legs. Last year they were surrounded by kids even less experienced than they are. Neither scenario really shows what you are capable of contributing in a well balanced team.

For example it's easy to forget that Jack was on 46 games at the start of the year and regarded as a third forward. As the circumstances around him changed he was able to shine.

In the last 2 years out of the 10 players you mentioned 2 have shone. This begs the question what we should actually expect (rather than hope for) from the other recruits. If over the next two years we get another one / two good / very good players from this group, and 2-3 reliable contributers (have their bad weeks and they're not stars, but generally they hold down a role) I think we'll have done well.

No doubt DH will continue to move on those that will not contribute to a premiership, and I predict another 10 player turn-over at the end of this season, but I personally think it's premature to write off those 8.

i base my assesment on all players with an emphasis on their strengths and weaknesses. can they kick, make good decisions, can they mark, jump, how fast are they, how far can they run, agility, smarts, etc. what role size strength etc
fail to tick enough boxes and i wont even consider them.

yeah playing in a shitty team can limit your ability to shine at times but if you have too many weaknesses in your game it wont matter shitty team or good you will eventually be upgraded on.

anyway we clearly disagree every one of those 8 mentioned has had at least 4 yrs in our system. its still the weaknesses in their games after this amount of time that has them in the gun. weather at richmond or hawthorn or who ever the whites etc etc of this world wont change. in fact players we consider decent would not even be looked at by other sides.

finally you mention jack for some of us jack was always travelling nicely.
i dont rate him as highly as some atm but in a shit side with no help he managed to show each yr he had what it takes. why is that now. simple he had most of the tools to make it. his weaknesses were few. and for me the one real weakness he has (pace) is offset with a real strength smarts.

yeah the argument of playing in a weak side may have some merit but to what degree at what point is this an excuse for a players deficiencies.

 

[Rayzorwire]

The part I find intriguing/worrying about this 'excuses/reasons' issue is how we'll handle Hardwick's contract negotiations.

I really wouldn't like to see a situation where if we didn't do so well this year the board held off on his contract negotiations until the 2012 mid-season or something similar, making him and the rest of the coaching staff go into the final year of their contract(s) under a cloud of speculation, with them and the club in general being pestered by the media about what needs to be done for Hardwick to get an extension.

I'd much prefer we gave him a no fuss one year extension at the end of this season and nipped the issue in the bud, meaning if we do take another season to really get our act together, he'll still rightfully have his third year to show us what he's capable of, without the unhelpful influence of outside pressure regarding his future complicating every day of a season he needs to be performing at his best for.

 

[GordonGecko]

I really like what Hardwick has done so far.

I also think he is on the right track and has recruited really well.

That midfield nucleus is starting to look ominous.

Martin
Cotchin
Conca

Three really natural ballwinners who you can build a side around.

These blokes, when fully developed will bring the likes of Deledio and Matt White into the game and allow them to play a more outside role and thus use their pace.

I dont think either have shown the ability to have a consistent impact as an inside ball winner, but with the above mentioned these blokes will simply have to be in the right spot to use their best asset.

Pace.

I think you are very much on the right track.