Flake Watch

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Ridley This

Team Captain
Oct 28, 2008
424
484
Melbourne
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Team development is something I’ve taken a detail interest in over the past couple of off-seasons, not only from our own team, but from the history of how other successful sides were built beyond simply hitting the draft jackpot. In a previous thread I’ve looked into long-term quantitate data (http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...nd-profit-2014-edition.1042660/#post-31389610), whilst here I want to address some qualitative concerns I have.

What makes or breaks a premiership team is the worst of your best. Malthouse ear Collingwood popularised the term ‘best 25’, indicating a level of depth and ‘next man up’ that characterises a successful long term campaign. The idea is to broaden the number of people at your team who can do the lifting and, taken to it’s logical this end, means that it can be the responsibility of your entire list to win a flag. In practice, its about making use of everything that you have and creating a natural cycle where not everyone has to be at their best all the freaken time. Ross Lyon is the modern master of this process, mainly because he has created this cycle for two teams (Freo and StKilda) within a relatively short space of time. Freo were historically categorised as being composed of two superstar players (Sandilands and Pav), and if you could stop them, the rest would crumble. Lyon’s teams are are characterised by group effort and total ground hustle, which not only diminishes the pressure on your top tier, but also has a flow on effect of raising seemingly mediocre players into great ones. The mark of a true champion may be to play consistently well in a bad team, however you ought not build your team around that champion because it fosters a tendency to pass the buck. If you’re attempting to shed a losing culture, this type of holistic thinking is a good place to start. Geelong are the prime example, whilst Swans and Hawks can be cited to a lesser degree.

Personally I feel the Bulldogs over-relied on a handful of player through their last two credible finals campaigns. Wallace and Eade both had a habit of bracketing off the best and forgetting the rest. Equally,our general fan base seems to have gotten into the habit of canonising three or four players, whilst being blind to the deficiencies of our list as a whole. I’m not saying everyone does this, but when most of us haven’t lived through a Dogs flag, it’s easy enough to cling too tightly to the positives we can find. However, this is something we must culturally keep in check if we ever want to actually win something.


Philosophically, this is why I like McCartney and want to back him to the hilt. BMac’s long time mentor and partner, Mark Thompson, placed huge emphasis of growing a complete unit of men, which includes their personal development as well as sporting. McCartney’s message, at least from the outside looking in, is one of first principal footy, where you build from the ground and bring everyone along. This is reflected in his simple messaging and his relatively straight talking persona. That's all great, assuming it’s not all smoke and mirrors, with a guy who really doesn’t have a clue being just clever enough to spin AFL 101 into sounding more profound than it really is.



It’s year 3 of McCartney, which in my opinion is judgment time. Obviously we’re all pleased with the likes of McCrea and Libba going through the roof. Others, such a Dalh. JJ, Clay, Hunter, Talia and Rough continue on a relatively steady upward trend. However, I feel that McCartney still has a huge amount to prove under his own standards of critique; specifically the number of player currently in our senior rotation who are ‘flakes’.



I define a flake as a player who has demonstrated capacity to be a useful first grade footballer, but who goes totally missing for long periods of games, if not several weeks. They have the tendency to unfairly become the whipping boy of some fans, yet still deserved reasonable scrutiny. In fact, most of these are players which I like and think we should persist with, however if they continue to demonstrate an inability to find consistent form then we should be rightfully concerned about them as individuals and our development strategy at large.

To name names:

Campbell

Crameri (on Essendon form)

Dickson

Goodes

Grant

Jones

Stevens

Stringer

Tutt

Wallis (hidden by a tagging role)

Wood



The intention of this thread is to track the overall state of the our Flakes, as a group and individual, rather than simply sporadically potting them in every post-match vent. Some may drop out of contention completely, whilst other, so-far-unsighted types will probably be added as the season progresses. I would like you guys to help me review of each of these players in 4 week batches as to allow long term tends to emerge. Hopefully this will provide some useful data to inform our support base at large.

For BMac to be considered a successful developmental style of coach, we must be able to chart considerable improvement across this named group over 2014.
 
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yeah so basically if a grp of players 22 -25 in number, can display good and consistent form (win their position) over a season u can will a premiership
OMG u just reinvented the wheel, what next? measuring the wetness of water?

Im sorry i understand that post must of taken a while to write but ..... maybe u should of though of something better to do in ur free time like ask a simple question? Does Bmac have a gameplan?

What makes a team spread and move as one away from a contest once the ball is won - and why the hell do we do the opposite and collapse into the contest having too many at the coal face and releasing the ball with a dinky chain of 1-2m handballs until it comes unstuck as we have seen continually over the last 2 and a bit years? Could it be that winning the contested ball isn't as pivotal to success as say transition into space? because what i see in geelong in freo and hawthorn is transition football rather than contested scrum mauls. No team can defend the kick into space to advantage, individuals working off their man and stretching the defense out of shape. Eade was a master at that.

I haven't really wade into the Eade vs Bmac debate, however Eade's game-plan while many believe was non existent was simple and effective. My greatest criticism of Eade is that when he got it right he lost his nerve and went out and got Bazza which changed our forward dynamic and made us predictable. Yes we failed in 2008 and 2009 however injuries and luck conspired against us more than anything. In 2010 we limped into the top 4 and were never a real threat for we had by finals time adopted a style which neither suited us nor had the potential to counter the better teams. Kick it to Barry ignore the space, rubbish football that we served up all through 2010. And when we realized it was too late blame Aker.
 
I think you missed the point of this thread.

The intention of this thread is to track the overall state of the our Flakes, as a group and individual, rather than simply sporadically potting them in every post-match vent...I would like you guys to help me review of each of these players in 4 week batches as to allow long term tends to emerge.

I really like this idea.
Would give the board (if people read the thread) a better idea of how some players are really traveling, rather than just having opinions based on one poor game or one good game and never changing it.
 

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Great idea. Great thread. It will be interesting to track these players.

Koby Stevens has seemed to me to have improved in terms of consistency. He also hits the packs hard and really attacks the footy. Occasionally his skills or decision making will let him down, but as you say, it is worth tracking these guys.
 
I think Koby Stevens has been steadily improving and I wouldn't consider him to be a flake.

And to put Stringer in that category is a bit harsh. He's played what <15 games?

But other than that, I agree with the rest of your post.
 
yeah so basically if a grp of players 22 -25 in number, can display good and consistent form (win their position) over a season u can will a premiership
OMG u just reinvented the wheel, what next? measuring the wetness of water?

Im sorry i understand that post must of taken a while to write but ..... maybe u should of though of something better to do in ur free time like ask a simple question? Does Bmac have a gameplan?

What makes a team spread and move as one away from a contest once the ball is won - and why the hell do we do the opposite and collapse into the contest having too many at the coal face and releasing the ball with a dinky chain of 1-2m handballs until it comes unstuck as we have seen continually over the last 2 and a bit years? Could it be that winning the contested ball isn't as pivotal to success as say transition into space? because what i see in geelong in freo and hawthorn is transition football rather than contested scrum mauls. No team can defend the kick into space to advantage, individuals working off their man and stretching the defense out of shape. Eade was a master at that.

I haven't really wade into the Eade vs Bmac debate, however Eade's game-plan while many believe was non existent was simple and effective. My greatest criticism of Eade is that when he got it right he lost his nerve and went out and got Bazza which changed our forward dynamic and made us predictable. Yes we failed in 2008 and 2009 however injuries and luck conspired against us more than anything. In 2010 we limped into the top 4 and were never a real threat for we had by finals time adopted a style which neither suited us nor had the potential to counter the better teams. Kick it to Barry ignore the space, rubbish football that we served up all through 2010. And when we realized it was too late blame Aker.

If it's all so damn obvious then why did we fall to injuries and luck?

Why did Eade regularly play injured players? Why did he run Cooney into the ground? Why do we constantly fall into the “if we only had player x” mentality?

And why , ultimately, have Eade or Wallace with all their tactical nous, failed to win a flag anywhere?

BMac is long-game coach and has been from day one. For better or worse the Bulldogs went all in with his philosophy, and left many traditional means of “x’s and o’s” analysis behind them. This is how you get a coach making statements like “the goals kick themselves” and “we’re not so worried about the score”. The merits of this approach have been demonstrated by teams such as Geelong, who in the words of Mark Thompson “basically coach themselves”. The club has invested 2 and a bit years into systematically changing it’s approach., which is something many of us were calling for over the years. Those who haven’t bought in just want to pot everything we do. Those who have bought in seem starry eyed about the whole damn thing.

Is it all roses? **** no. I worry that there are just too many places to hide with this style of team development. Hence I want is to piece together a rational critique based on the internal logical currently being pursued by the club. I fear that we are failing to meet that standard, but time will tell.

You want to talk a waste of time? How about the 1000’s of posts which are definitely at odds with what the club is actually attempting?

P.S.
Never claimed to be an expert, just exploring an idea. By the way, I love the way you guys have nit picked on the names thing, super f’ing constructive. Whilst it is my bad, it's a typo ffs, I don't claim to be a professional journalist. I was more a Stephen MacPherson fan I guess.

Might be easier to just type "SACK THE COACH" every 30 seconds.
 
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Agree with the thrust of the OP and most of the above. Will make a serious contribution in due course.

P.S.
It's just a shame you can't abide a bit of humour on the side. Sheesh.
 
errr... sorry ... but that's Steven Wallis.
Agree with the thrust of the OP and most of the above. Will make a serious contribution in due course.

P.S.
It's just a shame you can't abide a bit of humour on the side. Sheesh.

Sorry man. I'm a little fired up atm :oops:. For the record what is the man's name?
Because I can't find a source that I trust on this:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-western-bulldogs--stephen-wallis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wallis
 
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Never claimed to be an expert, just exploring an idea. By the way, I love the way you guys have nit picked on the names thing, super f’ing constructive. Whilst it is my bad, it's a typo ffs, I don't claim to be a professional journalist. I was more a Stephen MacPherson fan I guess.

Might be easier to just type "SACK THE COACH" every 30 seconds.

Hit the nail on the head with that last line. People are quick to criticise but most of the time it's as though they are looking through a pin hole and miss the point entirely. Don't worry, after a few games you'll probably get a few more contributers, who aren't just abusive twits who don't have anything constructive to say but expect everyone else to value their opinions. The shit will eventually get filtered out.
 

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Sorry man. You got my doubting myself and it annoyed me. For the record what is the man's name?
Because I can't find a source that I trust on this:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pc-western-bulldogs--stephen-wallis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Wallis
Haha ...the joke might be on me!

I always remembered it as Stevie (which can be short for Steven or Stephen) so I looked it up in the 1987 AFL season guide (supposedly a reliable source) and it said Steven. After your post above I checked a recent AFL Record Season Guide which still lists him as Steven Wallis and the WB website shows the 1989 captain as just S.Wallis, so who knows?

TBH it doesn't matter a bit as long as we both know who we're talking about.

EDIT: Just saw blizzrd's post so maybe it is Steven ... for what it's worth.
 
And why , ultimately, have Eade or Wallace with all their tactical nous, failed to win a flag anywhere?
Geelong had 16-17 All-Australian standard players in their top 22 in their finals campaigns, while we were rocking up to prelims with blokes like Tiller and Callan, who shouldn't have been on an AFL list 5 years into their careers, let alone relying on them as starting 18 players in a prelim. I think your questioning on whether we've over relied on the top end talent is 100% spot on - would those Lyon or Malthouse coached teams have made GFs with equivalent talents of Stephen (Steven, Steve, Stevie?) Tiller and Callan there?

I think McCartney has an outstanding knack in developing talent, quite possibly without peer in the AFL - if the talent is there, it WILL be developed to its full potential - so as the list looks at the moment, I think we will have at least a dozen AA standard players at the top of the cycle. However, a) unless the depth is stronger (as you're alluding to McCartney being better at managing), this make up of the squad isn't really much better than the club's last two premiership runs, and b) even if we do have much improved depth and less flakey players this time around, I don't think this amount of top end talent will be enough to take on GC and GWS.

We need another 3,4, maybe even 5, and at least one of them needs to be a superstar. We will not get these AA standard players by continually throwing away draft picks and spots on the list and (in total) millions in cash on cast offs and mid/top aged NQRs who will never be AA standard, but I feel like my last 500 posts have been on that topic, so no need to expand further.

Tactics and gameplan wise, whether McCartney can not only can match but outsmart the top 2/3/4 coaches at that pointy end of our premiership window, only time will tell - questioning or applauding his tactical nous before we see it displayed in full across a number of finals is probably futile at this point of time.

In regards to a couple of the guys you've listed however, I will put forward this opinion: they need to be 22/23 years old to really get an accurate gauge on their ability to stand up or otherwise on their flakiness. As examples, at the same age as what Wallllise is now; Sammy Mitchell only managed to get over 14 possessions once in that season; Daniel Cross was being listed among a likely group of Bulldogs delistees on this very forum; Andrew Thompson (St Kilda B&Fs and 200 games at AFL level) and Michael Barlow had not played a single AFL game. All players most clubs would love to have in their finals squads.

Same applies to Stringer, and given he's been in the AFL system for a total of 1.3 years, probably doubly so.
 
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Geelong had 16-17 All-Australian standard players in their top 22 in their finals campaigns, while we were rocking up to prelims with blokes like Tiller and Callan, who shouldn't have been on an AFL list 5 years into their careers, let alone relying on them as starting 18 players in a prelim. I think your questioning on whether we've over relied on the top end talent is 100% spot on - would those Lyon or Malthouse coached teams have made GFs with equivalent talents of Stephen (Steven, Steve, Stevie?) Tiller and Callan there?
Callan played well in the finals. St. Kilda got to the GF with Zac Dawson, Brett Peake, Robert Eddy and Andrew McQualter.
 
Callan played well in the finals. St. Kilda got to the GF with Zac Dawson, Brett Peake, Robert Eddy and Andrew McQualter.
In 2008 I'll give him credit, I think he played ok, a year later, I only got there at half time because of work and don't remember him at all, unless his first half was really good then he was probably a non-entity ... which is what this thread comes down to, who of those bottom 6 can step up and impose themselves on the contest when it counts, because not all of your top level players will play at the top of their game.

Next cycle around, I don't think our results will be any better if a bloke we're targeting and/or relying on for our top 22 comes from a fellow premiership contender who don't consider him in the top 30 on their list.

As to the names you listed, other than Eddy (probably an equivalent in talent to Callan, can be argued to be a contributing factor to them not getting over the line in the GFs), all the blokes were players capable of playing 100+ AFL games.

I don't get the people pot-shotting Dawson all the time; sure, he's found out against the best forwards, but all in all a passable key defender - playing over 90% of games in 3 separate Grand Final making teams across 2 separate clubs - when compared to someone like Tiller who was incredibly lucky to get to 20 odd games across 5 years at the top level, I think he's quite a few notches above. IMO Tiller would not have gotten any game time with those St Kilda teams (probably not even good enough to be considered a flake?), so I'm steering away from the main point the thread. Still relevant to the depth of the list though.
 
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I don't know why you're potting Tiller. Tiller struggled with injuries. He retired from all football at 24 because of injuries. He had enough ability, at the least equal to that of someone like Dawson.
 
If BMac gets us deep into a finals series I don't see depth being a problem. His philosophy appears to be to create as much competition for spots as possible and I believe this is the best way to obtain depth.

My only criticism todate, is that I would have liked us to have picked at least one perhaps two more key position players to develop. We are flush with developing mids but poor in key posts: Talia, fletcher, jones, Austin, Williams and Redpath is all she wrote. Roughie is a work in progress who in every likelihood, once Minson retires, will move into the ruck. Ruck stocks are ok: Minson, Campbell, Cordy and roughy.

The key position area of development remains insufficient. This is where we are very flakey and have been for decades. And why I can not under stand why Talia is not playing every game. Very strange.
 
This is the most idiotic thread ever produced on here( there's been plenty)
How on earth could you say Jake Stringer is flakey? Mitch Wallis is hiding behind Beeing a tagger?
Well bugger me players learning to play a role through tagging!!
Geelong took 7 years to become a powerful team and club ( had some doubt they'd get there)he's in his 3rd year.
Stkilda got there through theirtop end talent ( Hayes and riewoldt in 09 prelim)and some vital role players
 
If BMac gets us deep into a finals series I don't see depth being a problem. His philosophy appears to be to create as much competition for spots as possible and I believe this is the best way to obtain depth.

My only criticism todate, is that I would have liked us to have picked at least one perhaps two more key position players to develop. We are flush with developing mids but poor in key posts: Talia, fletcher, jones, Austin, Williams and Redpath is all she wrote. Roughie is a work in progress who in every likelihood, once Minson retires, will move into the ruck. Ruck stocks are ok: Minson, Campbell, Cordy and roughy.

The key position area of development remains insufficient. This is where we are very flakey and have been for decades. And why I can not under stand why Talia is not playing every game. Very strange.
Good point I agree we need tall talent, but we've gone with best available in our early picks and rightly so.
 
Most years, the majority of high end talent seems to be among the midfielders. This could in significant part be due to the age of the kids at draft.
Mids develop earlier generally, so will likely have shown more than their tall peers, who require extra development time.
To pick up top-line talls you need to be both astute in picking them young, and lucky to have one available at your selections.
Then you are likely faced with the problem of..do you pick the 'best for your needs' [ a tall], or 'best available', likely to be a mid ?
It would be an astute and very brave recruiter who would select a Harris/Lake ahead of a Griffin, then be lambasted for 5 years for his 'stupidity' by fans.
 

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