Religion Folau

[AM]

The support (solidarity and financial) and sympathy that Folau is garnering on this issue would dispute that. It's clear that people are divided on it, it's not as black and white as 'progressives' would like everybody to believe hence the on-going never-ending furore in the media.

That was the same argument gay marriage proponents used to argue that a plebiscite would cause unnecessary emotional damage on young homosexuals because it would've given those who didn't agree with gay marriage a platform to express their 'bigotry'. Weird that that logic wasn't applied for this incident.

There's more than one issue in play here. There's the vilification and hate speech done with malice. Freedom of expression is not absolute.

Then there's the ethics of a man with a property portfolio worth millions setting up a fund that pretty much allows him to use the proceeds as he sees fit.

The hypocrisy of him not living up to the love one another as I loved you bit.

And when you say opinion is divided, I'd suggest it's far from and equal division and Folau's reputation in the eyes of those outside the fundies has been damaged irreparably.

 

[Crankitup]

Here’s a a quote from your idol in 2016

Not my idol, that would be idolatry. I don't follow rugby apart from watching the State of Origin. Much prefer AFL.

"It got really bad," Folau said. "I just got caught up in the alcohol, women and all that sort of stuff.

I agree with you here, he's no saint, which is why I said earlier in this marathon thread how he could've better framed his message.

Oh wait he repented so he is ok now.

Correct. That's what he's suggesting we all do.

 

[Chief]

I have to admit that I think 'homosexuals' aren't born they're made. I have quoted a few who are brave enough to be honest about it. I'm now confronted with you who say the opposite so my guess is that you feel obliged and constrained by society to say you "can't help it" because you were "born that way". Which sort of makes the whole "Gay Pride" parade scene nonsensical. I mean I can understand people making an informed willful choice and being proud but being born with a nature they 'can't help' doesn't seem to be something they would feel proud about. If you think there's nothing wrong with being gay why would the suggestion that you've made a choice to be so, be so offensive to you? I think the stance of Karla Mantilla and others is a lot more noble.

The “it’s a choice” crowd usually continue on to suggest people can “pray the gay away” or some such variation, the better to pass moral judgment.

From what I can see “pride” is in surviving and thriving in the face of ignorance and hatred and violence.

So, **** the preachers.

 

[OniAu]

I have to admit that I think 'homosexuals' aren't born they're made. I have quoted a few who are brave enough to be honest about it. I'm now confronted with you who say the opposite so my guess is that you feel obliged and constrained by society to say you "can't help it" because you were "born that way". Which sort of makes the whole "Gay Pride" parade scene nonsensical. I mean I can understand people making an informed willful choice and being proud but being born with a nature they 'can't help' doesn't seem to be something they would feel proud about. If you think there's nothing wrong with being gay why would the suggestion that you've made a choice to be so, be so offensive to you? I think the stance of Karla Mantilla and others is a lot more noble.

I never said I can’t help being gay. I’m bloody proud I am. Was I born this way ? 100%. Is it a choice. No it isn’t. It’s who I actually am.

If parts of society wasn’t so down on homosexuals. There would be no issue.

Sitting there telling me I had a choice through my teen years to flick a switch to be straight is utter nonsense. No more so than me saying to you , you had the choice to be gay and you chose to be straight. Like many others in this thread , you can sit there saying it’s a choice. Yet you can’t clarify when you made that sound choice to be heterosexual

I went from age 12 to late twenties hiding who I actually was. I wasn’t ashamed of it but frightened of the reactions I would get for when I came out from my family and friends. Mainly because parts of society paint being homosexual as wrong. So much so you end up having suicidal thoughts as it’s an absolute mind **** trying to predict what will happen if someone finds out or when you tell someone. You play it over and over in your head every day.

Gay pride is about celebrating who you are without fear and prejudice. For many years it was so frowned upon and ridiculously treated as abnormal that it put fear into people coming out.

It’s so offensive to say it’s a choice because it isn’t one. You are questioning who those people are and fabricating it.

This is where Folau is so out of line. Yet all you are he are worried about is right to follow his religion. Which no one has ever questioned. His discriminative views people have questioned and will continue to.

Sorry to confront you with my “gay lifestyle” that differs from your ignorant views on homosexuals




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[Crankitup]

The “it’s a choice” crowd usually continue on to suggest people can “pray the gay away” or some such variation, the better to pass moral judgment.

Actually the pray it away crowd are usually an extreme brand of pentecostal or similar who believe that demonic possession is the cause and that casting the offending demon/s out will result in a cure. They point to passages that refer to Jesus casting demons out of people but I've never heard them explain how not one instance of him doing so was to 'cure' a sexual orientation problem, rather just sickness.

From what I can see “pride” is in surviving and thriving in the face of ignorance and hatred and violence.

Fair enough.

So, **** the preachers.

Fair enough again.

 

[Crankitup]

I never said I can’t help being gay. I’m bloody proud I am. Was I born this way ? 100%. Is it a choice. No it isn’t.

I'm confused here, you never said you can't help being gay? So you can help being gay? Freudian slip?

Yet you can’t clarify when you made that sound choice to be heterosexual.

As I said earlier in the thread I believe the notion of 'being homosexual' itself is an artificial construct that makes it easy for society to label people. IMO the only choice being made is to act in one way or other but you shouldn't be forever defined by your actions per se. Now just because I can't see myself ever wanting to use an orifice that was deigned to evacuate human waste or something along those lines, after many years of being perfectly happy with the female anatomy, doesn't mean others aren't capable of doing so. My mother worked with a man, who she became friends with who was initially happily married and then, (you would say) 'turned' gay, and that lasted 16 years. I met him and his male partner when I was young. Neither of them were overtly effeminate, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart from any average male. He's now just as happy again with a woman. Somehow I don't think he saw himself as merely a helpless pawn reacting to his biology.

Someone who would agree with that sentiment is writer Lindsay Miller who said the following in an article published in the left-leaning Atlantic Magazine.

In direct opposition to both the mainstream gay movement and Lady Gaga, I would like to state for the record that I was not born this way. I have dated both men and women in the past, and when I've been with men, I never had to lie back and think of Megan Fox. I still notice attractive men on the street and on television. If I were terrified of the stigma associated with homosexuality, it would have been easy enough to date men exclusively and stay in the closet my whole life.
....
Obviously, no one sits down and makes a rational decision about who to fall in love with, but I get frustrated with the veiled condescension of straight people who believe that queers "can't help it," and thus should be treated with tolerance and pity. To say "I was born this way" is to apologize for the person I am and for whom I love. It's like saying I would be different if I could.

 

[Chief]

Actually the pray it away crowd are usually an extreme brand of pentecostal or similar who believe that demonic possession is the cause and that casting the offending demon/s out will result in a cure. They point to passages that refer to Jesus casting demons out of people but I've never heard them explain how not one instance of him doing so was to 'cure' a sexual orientation problem, rather just sickness.



Fair enough.



Fair enough again.

Or some variation thereof.

Religious, psychological, medical, moral. Always searching for a way to pathologise or medicalise or moralize or spiritualise over something that isn’t a problem.

Or monetise, like Folau and any number of religious grifters.

 

[Chief]

Good one from Facebook:

 

[Benny78]

Phew! The Australian Christian Lobby have fixed his fundraiser. I was worried religion was going to escape public scrutiny yet again

 

[Snake_Baker]

Its 2019 means what it means.

Yes, it means that you're an inflexible control freak and that all of your opinions are self evident truths which cannot be questioned.

The new Nazi's are wearing rainbows.

 

[Sainteric]

This is where Folau is so out of line. Yet all you are he are worried about is right to follow his religion. Which no one has ever questioned. His discriminative views people have questioned and will continue to.




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His views are wrong definately, his views need to be questioned and opposed no doubt. But does his lively hood need to be destroyed over them? Does he not have freedom of speech or freedom to practice his own religion? Does federal employment laws need to be broken to achieve the desired outcome?

All religions are bigoted, in many ways. Gofundme seems to be ok with discriminating against him which many on this board approve, which is not unlike the Christian baker argument.

I suppose the result justifies the means.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Thoughts on Cardinal Pell?

......and there we have it.

 

[Sainteric]

There's more than one issue in play here. There's the vilification and hate speech done with malice. Freedom of expression is not absolute.

Then there's the ethics of a man with a property portfolio worth millions setting up a fund that pretty much allows him to use the proceeds as he sees fit.

The hypocrisy of him not living up to the love one another as I loved you bit.

And when you say opinion is divided, I'd suggest it's far from and equal division and Folau's reputation in the eyes of those outside the fundies has been damaged irreparably.

AM trying to post objectively about religion an improvement but not quite there. I doubt folau set out to vilify and malice at least in intent is a huge step. His money is irrelevant when it comes to his ability to hold his religious views, no matter how unsavoury.

Donate to Izzy Link

 

[CheapCharlie]

No, nobody has advocated that argument Charlie.

Doesnt it follow that if you accuse someone of hate speech for quoting bible passages, that the book should be edited to remove hate speech... or banned?

 

[CheapCharlie]

This is all very confusing. Folau has to the right to say whatever he wants and RA shouldn't have dismissed him. Then GFM takes away his fund raising platform and they don't have any rights to choose who uses their platform. Alternatively if a bank or PayPal also decide not to provide him with an account, they don't have any rights either.

Am I doing it right? So Folau is the victim?

Does there always need to be a victim in your mind?

 

[CheapCharlie]

If I go into my work place and start saying all women deserve to be home bound. I’d be sacked quicker than you could blink.

Pretty sure the bible states this somewhere among its other rubbish.

If you had a million dollar contract and you can’t withhold your bigoted comments to keep in line with the contract. Stupidity is a hanging offence. Don’t sign it


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Yeah but Folau didint wall onto the playing field and start quoting the stuff.

Folau and the rest of us can freely read the same bigotry and hate speech you describe in the worlds most common book... we can own it.. give it to others... but you dont want people quoting from it on their own social media pages?

 

[raskolnikov]

Let's stop pretending that Izzy's fight is not Izzy, Lyle and the like being offended over the ssm law being passed and guising their homophobia as "religious freedom".

 

[Sainteric]

Does there always need to be a victim in your mind?

There always has to be a victim and an oppressor, the left can only look at any issue under that premise

 

[Snake_Baker]

Let's stop pretending that Izzy's fight is not Izzy, Lyle and the like being offended over the ssm law being passed and guising their homophobia as "religious freedom".

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Hey, you can thank the rainbow Nazi's for conceding the high ground.

 

[Sainteric]

Let's stop pretending that Izzy's fight is not Izzy, Lyle and the like being offended over the ssm law being passed and guising their homophobia as "religious freedom".

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Not sure trying to move this away from what is a freedom to practice a religion and discrimination in employment issue is that helpful.

 

[raskolnikov]

Not sure trying to move this away from what is a freedom to practice a religion and discrimination in employment issue is that helpful.

Discrimination in employment? You mean like how gay people can't get jobs in Christian organisations?

 

[Taylor]

The “it’s a choice” crowd usually continue on to suggest people can “pray the gay away” or some such variation, the better to pass moral judgment.

From what I can see “pride” is in surviving and thriving in the face of ignorance and hatred and violence.

So, **** the preachers.

It's more that they believe everyone is given their challenges, some are in their attractions, and that everyone has the same god given rules to follow so those who are attractively challenged should honour their god by not acting on them.

That they are gay isn't the issue, that they act on it is.

This is actually what I believe the latest round of everyone having a unique gender is in retaliation to. Full and total support for the uncontrollable you, you aren't able to control who or what you find sexy and you should be free to explore that as much as possible as long as it isn't hurting anyone.

Basically one side says that there is a standard to live up to, the other is that if you feel it then it's true and that makes it correct.

And ultimately if you're only here for eighty years and there's nothing after then you may as well enjoy yourself. I'm sure our levels of anxiety, happiness and depression will start to swing back to the good side of the ledger any day now.

It's almost like humans are complicated creatures and putting roles on them by powers, regulations per say, doesn't help.

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

There's more than one issue in play here. There's the vilification and hate speech done with malice. Freedom of expression is not absolute.

Then there's the ethics of a man with a property portfolio worth millions setting up a fund that pretty much allows him to use the proceeds as he sees fit.

The hypocrisy of him not living up to the love one another as I loved you bit.

And when you say opinion is divided, I'd suggest it's far from and equal division and Folau's reputation in the eyes of those outside the fundies has been damaged irreparably.

There are three groups at play here. Those that you call fundies. Those that froth at the mouth over the post and celebrate any bad that comes Folau's way because of the post. Then there are those that strongly disagree with what Folau believes but do not deny his right to express it.

That more quiet latter group is much larger than you realise.

 

[Gough]

I believe in Folau's right to say whatever the f*** he wishes. It doesn't mean he should be immune from the consequences of what he says though.

 

[Taylor]

Let's stop pretending that Izzy's fight is not Izzy, Lyle and the like being offended over the ssm law being passed and guising their homophobia as "religious freedom".

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I thought it was about Qantas threatening to withdraw their money from Rugby Australia, and getting exactly what they wanted to fit their social agenda.

The issue for those who aren't on the faith wagon is that power being deployed to push policy that goes against their own values. Do we really want businesses directing social traffic? Especially ones that need to be supported and wouldn't be allowed to fail for it.