Forward line 2009

[Barnzy123]

The problem with our forward line is that we have a number of forward options who are capable against the 3rd best defender yet not capable against the oppositions best defender. Schulz, Polak, Hughes, Patto, and possibly at the later part of the year Vickery.
Out of these I think Schulz is the best on the lead and also tackling.

For mine.

Morton Reiwoldt Bling/Coghlan/ Bowden/ Connors
Brown Schulz Hughes/Polak/Patto/Vickey

Schulz from the sqaure, Hughes to move to CHF if Reiwoldt leads up the ground.

Exactly, Richo dominates any teams best defender then its.....? Thats where good drafting is vital. Boy oh boy, Pavlich or Buddy would of been nice huh. " Heres a good KP player, we should draft him" " Nah we have Richo, lets get more mid's or medium sized defenders!"

Now it's " Oh shit, Richo is 34, draft draft draft KP players quick, quick fix please!" - Post, Rance, Vickery, Browne, Putt, Gourdis, etc.

Sorry but it's time to go TW.

 

[mitch richmond]

Exactly, Richo dominates any teams best defender then its.....? Thats where good drafting is vital. Boy oh boy, Pavlich or Buddy would of been nice huh. " Heres a good KP player, we should draft him" " Nah we have Richo, lets get more mid's or medium sized defenders!"

Now it's " Oh shit, Richo is 34, draft draft draft KP players quick, quick fix please!" - Post, Rance, Vickery, Browne, Putt, Gourdis, etc.

Sorry but it's time to go TW.

Barnzy, are you Coggarules?????
I wouldn't say any of these blokes have been drafted out of panic for a quick fix. 3 were on our list last year and didn't play a game and the other 3 are very raw.
We improved to win 11 games last year, wouldn't sack Plough for doing that.

 

[bigstyletiger]

JR is listed as 193 however i have heard before he is taller than Nick so he might be pushing 194. He looks like he can play key position this year at any rate.

Here's my forward line with rotations

Brown/Cousins Riewoldt/Hughes Tambling/White
Morton/Edwards Hughes/Richo Bowden/Deledio

It's either Shulz or Hughes for me and I think Terry will want to give Hughes first crack.

 

[Rayzorwire]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder why we dont just put Richo back in there full time.

Richo's never really been a stay at home forward RB, he's always roamed the wings. Arguably the only difference now is that he's welcome to roam into defense as well when necessary and play behind the ball. Oh, and he starts on the wing, which is about as deep as the media generally get.

In '06 (as a supposed full-time FF) he had 85 shots on goal.

In '07 (as above) he had 93 shots on goal.

In '08 he had 78 shots on goal and did a stack more productive work away from goal than he has ever done before.

Less time in the forward-line, but getting almost the same scoring output because he's far less likely to be double teamed, he can choose the optimum times to be there, and he's always involved in the game rather than getting frustrated.

We're getting more out of the same package, using him much better, and addressing the 'when he goes' factor - very smart coaching IMO.

I actually have not totally given up on Sarge as a FF option!!!

(Likely to cop some flak for this opinion but anyway...)

Certainly he is not a "thinking" footballer and a couple of years ago when he was being tried down at FF in tandem with Richo they just seemed to get in each others way.
Richo obviously dominated the area and Schulz did not have the natural instinct at that stage to present as a second option.
He also copped a lot of criticism (fair too) for not being any good when the ball hit the turf or at putting defensive pressure on the backmen.

IMO however, his last year and a half playing in the back half and around the ground has taught him these footy basics and he now fights hard for the ball at ground level and certainly chases and goes in hard.

With Moore, Thursty & McGuane looking established down back and with Rance looking ready to perhaps step up our need for "swingman Schulz" has diminished.

I placed Clever at FF in my post earlier but if he does not work or gets hurt, I would like to see Sarge given a chance to be our goalsquare spearhead whilst Richo is up the ground.

(Certainly until Post, Vickery and Putt develop some more anyway)

Top post Roachy, couldn't agree more on most of that.

I've also grown loathe to bring up Schulz back in a KF role considering the reactions you inevitably get, but his recent roaming roles have looked a lot like an apprenticeship to improve him in all the areas needed to make him a better forward. I think we'll see him at least tried there again more full-time.

'08 was his first full pre-season ever, made a big difference to his stamina and he improved accordingly.

The obvious big advantage both he and Reiwoldt have over Hughes is that they can actually drag in a contested mark, crash packs etc.

I've always been an advocate of playing blokes who can take a contested grab deep, prefer to see Schulz and Connors there than say Hughes and Morton, who are both more inclined to be one-dimensional.

 

[maceman]

It's time to persist with someone. Who that someone is, I've no idea.
I like the output of Morton and Riewoldt and think Jack has muscled up somewhat this year. He does show exciting glimmers. Morton also seems to have the desire. Hughes; I don't know, is he lazy? We can't afford that.
The bottom line is someone has to deliver 60 -70 goals this year for us to be competitive, otherwise the opposition backs will simply trot the ball out of defence and deliver to thier own performing key forward.

So who's it going to be? I hope the coaching staff know.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Maybe we should put some time, a couple of hours, into getting Fev on the frothies and stuffing up again, given he's on his last chance ??

 

[dyl_tigerman]

i think according to tez he wants patto at chf and cleve in the oal square... though we can only just wait and see.... i want big goursdis up forward and nahas who according to one comentator kicks goals out of his ahas

 

[santa claws]

ive posted this team elsewhere. its made up with development kicking skills structure and size in mind.

B newman thursfield moore.
HB tambling mcguane/rance deledio
C cotchin thomson brown
HF morton riewoldt richardson
F connors post foley.
R simmonds tuck cousins.
INT graham bowden polo mcguane/rance

the back half is well rounded it has height moore thursield mcguane and rance. it has size with rance if needed. it has pace moore tambling deledio it has class in deledio. it has run in moore tambling deledio rance and newman. and most imortantly imo its mainly accountable and has good kicking skills mcguanne aside.

the centre line has pace skill size quality and good footskills it has blokes who know how to get their hands on the ball.

the forward line has three genuine talls it has richo given a free reign of a flank hes there also to drag a bit of heat away fro riewoldt and post i would rotate the three of them thry the two key forward posts.
it has a clever hard small in connors who uses well it has morton and ive put foley in the pocket as a genuine roving small forward who has pace its out side the square but we have two rovers now cousins can rotate with foley between the forward line onball and the bench.can even throw brown into that rotation.

rucks simmo tuck and cousins sort of speaks for itself.
interchange is graham as second ruck pretty obvious.bowden as a swing man polo as a run with type and rance or mcguane to give cover in the kp department. if a gorilla gets hold of us the bigger bodied rance can play back he could concievably play on a wing hes a real good mover.he should be looked at up forward as well.

imo thats very close to the best structure and kicking side we can muster. no white raines edwards jackson etc who just repeatedly butcher the ball. a mdern side can only carry so many poor kicks and the one ive selected still has its fair share.
in this day and age when kicking skills are king i think it important we pick the best kicking side we can without knocking team structure around to much.

 

[Rayzorwire]

That was 80% good, solid analysis AND readable Claude, you even threw in the occasional splash of punctuation!

Outstanding effort.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

ive posted this team elsewhere. its made up with development kicking skills structure and size in mind.

B newman thursfield moore.
HB tambling mcguane/rance deledio
C cotchin thomson brown
HF morton riewoldt richardson
F connors post foley.
R simmonds tuck cousins.
INT graham bowden polo mcguane/rance

quote]
Reasonable but a couple of glaring problems,
Polo/Edwards and Raines' form pre-season in the back half has exceeded that of McGaunne, Tambling and Newman.
Richo for his own game and the clubs forward line developement should never play in our forward line again....
Post , looks like being best playing behind the footy and has been used as that so far this season.
Lids is without doubt our best player at moving the ball with pace from a contest, may be limited at amount of contests he gets to form half back.

 

[santa claws]

ive posted this team elsewhere. its made up with development kicking skills structure and size in mind.

B newman thursfield moore.
HB tambling mcguane/rance deledio
C cotchin thomson brown
HF morton riewoldt richardson
F connors post foley.
R simmonds tuck cousins.
INT graham bowden polo mcguane/rance

Reasonable but a couple of glaring problems,
Polo/Edwards and Raines' form pre-season in the back half has exceeded that of McGaunne, Tambling and Newman.
.

i dont see any problems at all. polo is selected in the side as a run with player his kicking is not good enough to allow him to play of half back.

newman is going to play regardless of form hes the captain,and has been eased in to practice games.
hmm newman or raines sheesh a butcher of the ball who regularly runs himself into trouble or a lovely kick of the ball who is reasonably well rounded.
mcguane is a tall he plays kp.and has to play for structure and cover in kpps on game day.your not seriously telling me you want to play raines edwards or polo play as a kpp.
sheesh edwards another abysmal butcher of the ball and you want to see him play at half back. i dont care how much ball edwards gets if his kicking cannot improve we should be looking at trading him.
a question how many poor kicks do you want to play each week how many can a side carry before it kills them.

Richo for his own game and the clubs forward line developement should never play in our forward line again....
Post , looks like being best playing behind the footy and has been used as that so far this season.
Lids is without doubt our best player at moving the ball with pace from a contest, may be limited at amount of contests he gets to form half back.

i never heard so much rubbish about richo. he spends a lot of time forward as it is. without a doubt riewoldt and which ever other young tall forward we play will need a hand. i believe theres a thing called structure and the richmond forward line does not have it.a classy quick precise ball gatherer like cotchin should be playing on the wing. i certainly know who i prefer to see with ball in hand running forward and delivering.and it aint richo.

post geez big enough already a real nice mover across the ground beautiful mark overhead he will play as a forward but he looks a rare commodity at richmond, he looks capable of playing at both ends of the ground.hes ready to go its time for this club to develop their kids when they are ready rather than persevering with chronically deficient footballers and underachievers like schulz and hughes.

hmm on deledio theres a bloke named hodge who absolutely dominates games from hb. with cousins thomson and cotchin we now have the luxury of putting deledio into one of the most important positions on the ground.and make no mistake hb is a place for your better players.

i ask all posters this again how many poor kicks of the ball can a side afford to carry each week before it kills them.

 

[bigstyletiger]

Claude i sought of agree with you in a lot of ways. I have been trying to come up with my team for round 1 and i can't help but think that the team we will probably go in with is very poorly balanced. Some poorly rounded footballers on the half back line (which is where attack now begins) and not enough players in the forward half who are willing to play two way footy.

Terry loves McMahon but he just isn't a complete enough footballer. With Foley, Tuck, Thomson, Cotchin, Cousins, Deledio we should be able to use one of Lids or Cotch on the half back line to increase the quality of ball coming from the back half line.

Footskills are a premium these days and players should not be getting a game if they are going to turn the ball over on a regular basis.

 

[beaver fever]

Great side sharia laws. I think the best side would have Foley on the ball with Cousins in the pocket, but other then that looks the goods. If this club is worth a pinch of shit, they should look to trade off Edwards and Raines. We have so many shit kicks in our list that I can confidently say we won't win a premiership with it in the foreseeable future.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Reasonable but a couple of glaring problems,
Polo/Edwards and Raines' form pre-season in the back half has exceeded that of McGaunne, Tambling and Newman.

Apparently you don't know the difference between established senior players easing themselves into the season and fringe players trying to impress the coaching staff and being given every chance to do so PtF?

Have you backed Stokes to win the Brownlow?

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Apparently you don't know the difference between established senior players easing themselves into the season and fringe players trying to impress the coaching staff and being given every chance to do so PtF?

Have you backed Stokes to win the Brownlow?

By players I assume your stating McGuanne or Tambling are established and are hinting toward Polo have been given every opportunity by the coaching staff ???

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

Great side sharia laws. I think the best side would have Foley on the ball with Cousins in the pocket, but other then that looks the goods. If this club is worth a pinch of shit, they should look to trade off Edwards and Raines. We have so many shit kicks in our list that I can confidently say we won't win a premiership with it in the foreseeable future.

I totally agree that our kicking appears mile below Premiership material, not sure that our game plan or lack off , doesn't contribute to it, and maybe we should have been more pro-active during the off-season, however I cerainly don't think the answer is to weaken our midfield by moving Lids or Cotch, undoubtely the players our midfield in the future will by built around to a back flank, or moving Richo from the position he almost won the brownlow in, and won us a number of games last season, to a permanent forward where he had on more than one occasion become frustrated and abusive to teammates.
Looking at Geelong and even Tankton game last night, they have 1st and 2nd year players whose skills are significantly better than a number of our 4-5 year players.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

i dont see any problems at all. polo is selected in the side as a run with player his kicking is not good enough to allow him to play of half back.
From what I have seen Polo is being groomed back half and to be honest his form this season in that role has exceeded previous attempts to use him as a tagger, don't disagree that he might be fighting for bling for a half back spot.
newman is going to play regardless of form hes the captain,and has been eased in to practice games.
Agree wouldn't mind seeing him on a wing with his penatrating and direct kicking.
hmm newman or raines sheesh a butcher of the ball who regularly runs himself into trouble or a lovely kick of the ball who is reasonably well rounded.
Personally think Raines form pre-season has been good in that he has combatted the small forward more so than his attacking ?
mcguane is a tall he plays kp.and has to play for structure and cover in kpps on game day.your not seriously telling me you want to play raines edwards or polo play as a kpp.
No I think one maybe two will get a gig in the back half.

sheesh edwards another abysmal butcher of the ball and you want to see him play at half back. i dont care how much ball edwards gets if his kicking cannot improve we should be looking at trading him.
a question how many poor kicks do you want to play each week how many can a side carry before it kills them.
Don't disagree with either of your assesments here, but must say I have at least noticed that he has been prepared to break the lines and look to play down the corridor.


i never heard so much rubbish about richo. he spends a lot of time forward as it is. without a doubt riewoldt and which ever other young tall forward we play will need a hand. i believe theres a thing called structure and the richmond forward line does not have it.a classy quick precise ball gatherer like cotchin should be playing on the wing. i certainly know who i prefer to see with ball in hand running forward and delivering.and it aint richo.
Well have to agree to disagree, I believe we got as much out of Richo as could have been expected last season, playing on the wing, and think his ability to take important marks at both ends was a underestimated assest last season, by most except obviously the umps. Don't want to see him return to standing in the forward line getting frustrated.

post geez big enough already a real nice mover across the ground beautiful mark overhead he will play as a forward but he looks a rare commodity at richmond, he looks capable of playing at both ends of the ground.hes ready to go its time for this club to develop their kids when they are ready rather than persevering with chronically deficient footballers and underachievers like schulz and hughes.

Have not seen him have any effect at FF yet, and from what I've seen seems most confortable and is being groomed/played, unfortunately, in the swinging role ala Bowden.

hmm on deledio theres a bloke named hodge who absolutely dominates games from hb. with cousins thomson and cotchin we now have the luxury of putting deledio into one of the most important positions on the ground.and make no mistake hb is a place for your better players.
Agree Hodge did have great effect last season however they are quite different players, Hodge is extremely strong in the hips and breaks a lot of tackles and can out body larger opponents which I think are LIds deficiencies, whereas Lids pace and ability to break the lines would outweigh that of Hodges, personally don't think Thompson has the class or foot skills to play a hugely attacking role on-ball however agree his work in and under his been great.

i ask all posters this again how many poor kicks of the ball can a side afford to carry each week before it kills them.

Not asking for more bad kicks maybe just a difference of opinion of where we both think the clubs at, I personally believe our skills/ or lack of, is significantly contributed to lack of emphasis within our game plan to use the centre corridor.

 

[Rayzorwire]

By players I assume your stating McGuanne or Tambling are established

They are more or less, and Newman certainly is. Who cares if his pre-season form had been less than Polo/Edwards/Raines? (which is largely untrue anyway)

Tambling and McGuane have both had interrupted pre-seasons and were out there for the run.

and are hinting toward Polo have been given every opportunity by the coaching staff ???

This pre-season, yes - he's been given plenty of TOG and played all three games.

 

[santa claws]

Not asking for more bad kicks maybe just a difference of opinion of where we both think the clubs at, I personally believe our skills/ or lack of, is significantly contributed to lack of emphasis within our game plan to use the centre corridor.

thats a good reply well said. cant answer now not in good shape to too many beers.
but an answer tomy question would be nice in the mean time how many poor kicks do you think a team can carry before it kills them. it seems no one wants to answer this question.

 

[CoggaRules]

HF Bling Bowden/Reiwoldt Morton
F Brown Schulz Post/Vickery

Dont give a **** if the two in the FP are newbies, what we need despeartely is the rabbit of out of the hat from what we dont know. What we dont need is to stick to what we know and that is Patto and Hughes arent going to elevate us to the heights of top flight footy. And for those that have a problem with Bowden playing at CHF, well if he can play CHB on Jonathan Browns, then he can ****ing play CHF on lesser players..

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

B newman thursfield moore.
HB tambling mcguane/rance deledio
C cotchin thomson brown
HF morton riewoldt richardson
F connors post foley.
R simmonds tuck cousins.
INT graham bowden polo mcguane/rance
quote]

My side posted on the round 1 side thread :
B: Raines - Moore - Thursfield
HB: Polo - McGuane - Rance
C: Richo - Jackson - Newman
HF: Brown - Riewoldt - Morton
F: Lids - Schulz - Hughes

R: Simmonds - Foley - Cousins

Int: Tuck - Thompson - Graham - Tambling/Edwards

Emg: Tambling/Edwards,Bowden, McMahon, Johnson, White



Personally would have Cotchin, Pattison, pending form , Coghlan and Bowden in my best if all available. at the expense at the moment of Jackson, Graham, Hughes and Bling.

So out of our best possible 22 the differences is I have Raines, Coghlan, Schulz, Patto, (possibly form dependent) in my best side, in comparison to your side, for Connors, Post, Graham (possibly form dependent) and Tambling.
Don't think there is an alarming difference in disposal of foot from these groups ?
The reasons I would have the players in are :
Raines' skills I think are equal to Tamblings, and so far this year has shown to be in better form and has the better ability to play on the small forward out of these.
Schulz I think at this stage is a better option at full forward than what Post has shown as a KF.
Coghlan I think has equal foot skills and may add a bit more to the side than Connors.
Patto once again I think has equal skills to Graham.
So don't think by adding these players we are adding any extra players with worse foot skills , than those they are replacing ??

 

[gaelictiogar]

To O.P, Riewoldt is 192cm or 193cm depending what site you look on. Definatly not a 'smaller foward' as you say. Pavlich is 191cm and Fev is 191cm. He just needs to bulk up to play CHF.


What I want to see which probably won't happen but heres my foward line:

Cotchin/Connors Riewoldt Cousins/Edwards

Morton Hughes Brown

Lay off Hughes, he's played 13 games for 18 goals which is a decent output and he's still very young. Give the bloke a chance you hounds. Schulz has played 49 games and you're happy to include him. What is it? His 5th year on the list? All he's showed is that his a fringe player. Once Huges plays 30-40 more games we will be able to tell more.

I'd go along with you.

Brown is a no brainer in the corner. A star. Cleve instead of Sarge for me at FF. Morton a no brainer. I want Cuz at HF rather than midfield sincewe are stronger in midfield and he may not havve to work as much and can create damage up front. I'd rotate Richo, JR, Cotch and Lids to give them a rest from midfield.

 

[santa claws]

B newman thursfield moore.
HB tambling mcguane/rance deledio
C cotchin thomson brown
HF morton riewoldt richardson
F connors post foley.
R simmonds tuck cousins.
INT graham bowden polo mcguane/rance
quote]

My side posted on the round 1 side thread :
B: Raines - Moore - Thursfield
HB: Polo - McGuane - Rance
C: Richo - Jackson - Newman
HF: Brown - Riewoldt - Morton
F: Lids - Schulz - Hughes

R: Simmonds - Foley - Cousins

Int: Tuck - Thompson - Graham - Tambling/Edwards

Emg: Tambling/Edwards,Bowden, McMahon, Johnson, White



Personally would have Cotchin, Pattison, pending form , Coghlan and Bowden in my best if all available. at the expense at the moment of Jackson, Graham, Hughes and Bling.

So out of our best possible 22 the differences is I have Raines, Coghlan, Schulz, Patto, (possibly form dependent) in my best side, in comparison to your side, for Connors, Post, Graham (possibly form dependent) and Tambling.
Don't think there is an alarming difference in disposal of foot from these groups ?
The reasons I would have the players in are :
Raines' skills I think are equal to Tamblings, and so far this year has shown to be in better form and has the better ability to play on the small forward out of these.
Schulz I think at this stage is a better option at full forward than what Post has shown as a KF.
Coghlan I think has equal foot skills and may add a bit more to the side than Connors.
Patto once again I think has equal skills to Graham.
So don't think by adding these players we are adding any extra players with worse foot skills , than those they are replacing ??

again ive picked a side with good forward and backline structure size height and most importantly a side with as few poor kicks as possible. in fact 6 with a couple of iffy picks as well. ive also catered to development.
your side contains 9 poor kicks with a couple of iffy ones as well. again i ak how many poor kicks can you take into a game. how many before you cut your own throat.
whilst only a nab cup game did you look at the difference between collingwoods skills and ours. it was chalk and cheese. we won in most areas of the game but still got smashed in the end because of skills.
again i ask how many poor kicks do you think a side can carry before it kills ya. again noone will answer this question.

i think one reason this question does not get answered is people dont want to accept how many poor kicks we actually have or even worse dont recognise some players are poor kicks.and i certainly dont think most people place enough importance to kicking and the damage having to many poor kicks does.

 

[Rayzorwire]

again i ask how many poor kicks do you think a side can carry before it kills ya. again noone will answer this question.

i think one reason this question does not get answered is people dont want to accept how many poor kicks we actually have or even worse dont recognise some players are poor kicks.

Nobdy will respond because it's a 'how long is a piece of string' question which is not answerable the way you've framed it Claude.

Does "kills ya" equate to losing a grand final, missing the eight, or some irrelevant to either loss at Subi which has you so cranky you're ready to explode?

Does a "poor kick" hit the intended contested target to their advantage only 30% of the time, or hit an unmarked target only 80% of the time including balls which bounce first or are wide?

Can a side get away with having 1-2 elite kicks and the rest average/poor if these designated kickers get 30+ possessions a game?

I understand it doesn't seem that way to you, but you may as well be asking 'how far is it to the moon if you make seven U-turns?'

If you really want to make a point on the issue of kicking, perhaps begin by discussing how many 'good' kicks have been in recent premiership teams, and how far we are off having that same number.

I'll be trusting you to not include blokes like Joel Corey...who kicks like Shane Tuck but typically has a much wider margin for error because he's more often than not delivering to targets with enough space to park two road trains beside them.

 

["The Roar Is Back"]

again ive picked a side with good forward and backline structure size height and most importantly a side with as few poor kicks as possible. in fact 6 with a couple of iffy picks as well. ive also catered to development.
your side contains 9 poor kicks with a couple of iffy ones as well. again i ak how many poor kicks can you take into a game. how many before you cut your own throat.
whilst only a nab cup game did you look at the difference between collingwoods skills and ours. it was chalk and cheese. we won in most areas of the game but still got smashed in the end because of skills.
again i ask how many poor kicks do you think a side can carry before it kills ya. again noone will answer this question.

i think one reason this question does not get answered is people dont want to accept how many poor kicks we actually have or even worse dont recognise some players are poor kicks.and i certainly dont think most people place enough importance to kicking and the damage having to many poor kicks does.

I'll try to make it a bit easier, the difference between your best 22 and mine is 4 players.
You Have in your best 22 :
Connors, Graham, Post, Bling
and I don't, instead I have
Coghlan, Patto, Schulz, Raines

Now I'm sorry but I don't agree that the four you have in your side have better skills as a group than the four I have in their place.
In answer to your question about how many players with poor skills, it totally depends on the game plan and at the moment we have to many for the game plan we are trying to follow, but the options as proven above are only slightly if any better ?