Forward line Structure

[gbatman]

Watching the legends game last night I saw some things that made me cringe when comparing to our current talls but also brought back great memories.

At one stage SOS had the ball kicked to him and he propped, feet in the right place, deliberatly propped infront of the nearest opponant, did not get right under the ball (Like Kreuzer does) and attempted to mark it out in front of his body and made his opponant reach over him. There was no way he was going to be shifted or pushed under the ball and if he was some how pushed forward he still could have marked it through good positioning. He dropped the mark but he's been long retired and it was justa fun game. Just goes to show why he was a champion. Still has perfect technique and I can remember him propping like this, protecting the ball with his body and not trying to mark it right above his head (which allows any one to jump and spoil with ease), he always made it hard for his opponant to spoil, that's why he kicked 200 goals from just a few cameo forward appearances and took so many marks. His body work and marking technique is nothing like our current listed players, especially Kreuzer.

Then there was Fev. It's not just speed, it's the tricks and use of his body and his strength that gets him so far off his opponant on leads. And boy can he time a lead. His body use is still so good. Little bumps, knocks and pushes at just the right time and the thing that seperates him from all of our talls is that he always looks to instigate the physical contact. If his opponant is near him when Fev is going for a mark, they can expect some sort of physical contact. Again, a skill none of our current talls possess.

If anyone thinks we do a great job developing players and that Ratten, Barker and Co are doing well with our talls. Think again. I just dread to think that Mitchell will go through the system and be just another tall with no tricks or knowlege on how to use their body in a forward line that doesn't function and a midfield that doesn't set up. Again, I wouldn't go blaming the players too much. It's like expecting a kid to pass a maths test if they haven't been taught much.

We are crying out for a talls coach.

 

[Blue since 72]

Our play around the boundary is straight out of the Malthouse play book from his last years at the Pies. 'The boundary is your friend and allows another stoppage for your mids to win'.

I think it was either their premiership year or the year before where there was alot of talk in the media at one point about the number of points Collingwood were kicking per game vs goals because they were always coming into the F50 via the boundary and having shots on goal from difficult angles; ie the pockets.

Alot of teams now use a combination of boundary and run it through the middle (apart from the Hawks) and teams are also employing the long kick down the middle from the defensive goal square.

Basically teams are finding ways around a hard press.

We are a fast team and should move the ball on quickly as often as possible. coming out of defense we should be employing a long kick down the middle more often and our backs shouldn't be pushing too far up when the ball is up our end of the ground.

The Hawks are different to alot in they keep using their skills to break through press defenses. If I were playing the Hawks I would go man on man for the whole game and keep the space between their players and ours to a minimum.

Having said all that I still stick by my previous post in terms of why our foward line isn't functioning.

 

[BrunoV]

Isn't his body a wreck?

Be more interested in bringing back Fev.

We really need another chronically injured forward, fmd...

Gumbleton isn't injured any more. All reports are that he has killed it on the training track and in the weights room for at least 2 (and closer to 3) months now. We've been conservative with his comeback to ensure that when he plays he is fit enough to play well (rather than just play).

It is a no lose situation for Carlton. Gumby'd cost nothing and the potential upside is ridiculous. Obviously I hope he is with us and I think he could still be the best forward we have but I'd be equally as pleased for him to have a successful career elsewhere if that is what it takes (there is a developing log jam of key forwards on our list).

Even if he is not the player we drafted he would still be a better key forward prospect than Waite (who strikes me as more of a flanker and someone who would work really well in tandem with Gumby). If he is the player we drafted it would be the steal of the century.

If he gets injured you can cut your losses after a season and that is where it ends. In any event all suggestions are that Gumbleton is a very solid, driven citizen and great clubman (there is absolutely no risk of him acting up).

 

[gbatman]

essendon would want to keep him if he was right and hence we would not get him for nothing. Or they would want to get rid of him because he is shot and we would be getting a train wreck.

I get the feeling that Waite, while a very good player, will always be injured on and off and will struggle to provide a stable solution with us, that is unless the injuries setm from how we train our players and with changes in that department he comes good. Wishful thinking.

Our future at this stage looks to be in the hands of Casboult and Mitchell and maybe Hampson/Rowe. Fisrt we need to change how our team plays the game to allow forwards to have a chance.

 

[Just Kreuzing]

essendon would want to keep him if he was right and hence we would not get him for nothing. Or they would want to get rid of him because he is shot and we would be getting a train wreck.

I get the feeling that Waite, while a very good player, will always be injured on and off and will struggle to provide a stable solution with us, that is unless the injuries setm from how we train our players and with changes in that department he comes good. Wishful thinking.

Our future at this stage looks to be in the hands of Casboult and Mitchell and maybe Hampson/Rowe. Fisrt we need to change how our team plays the game to allow forwards to have a chance.

Correct, maybe they might start all our forwards on the boundary line and get them to lead into space towards the hotspot area instead of the other way around!

 

[Aphrodite]

Gumbleton isn't injured any more. All reports are that he has killed it on the training track and in the weights room for at least 2 (and closer to 3) months now. We've been conservative with his comeback to ensure that when he plays he is fit enough to play well (rather than just play).

It is a no lose situation for Carlton. Gumby'd cost nothing and the potential upside is ridiculous. Obviously I hope he is with us and I think he could still be the best forward we have but I'd be equally as pleased for him to have a successful career elsewhere if that is what it takes (there is a developing log jam of key forwards on our list).

Even if he is not the player we drafted he would still be a better key forward prospect than Waite (who strikes me as more of a flanker and someone who would work really well in tandem with Gumby). If he is the player we drafted it would be the steal of the century.

If he gets injured you can cut your losses after a season and that is where it ends. In any event all suggestions are that Gumbleton is a very solid, driven citizen and great clubman (there is absolutely no risk of him acting up).

If he is killing it on the track, why would Essendon want to trade him.

Our injury list is not the healthiest at the moment and I can't see adding another injury prone player to our list would improve it.

How many games has he played for the Bombers again since he was drafted in 2006?

22 games since 2007.

PASS !!!!!!

 

[Graffy4242]

Gumbleton isn't injured any more. All reports are that he has killed it on the training track and in the weights room for at least 2 (and closer to 3) months now. We've been conservative with his comeback to ensure that when he plays he is fit enough to play well (rather than just play).

It is a no lose situation for Carlton. Gumby'd cost nothing and the potential upside is ridiculous. Obviously I hope he is with us and I think he could still be the best forward we have but I'd be equally as pleased for him to have a successful career elsewhere if that is what it takes (there is a developing log jam of key forwards on our list).

Even if he is not the player we drafted he would still be a better key forward prospect than Waite (who strikes me as more of a flanker and someone who would work really well in tandem with Gumby). If he is the player we drafted it would be the steal of the century.

If he gets injured you can cut your losses after a season and that is where it ends. In any event all suggestions are that Gumbleton is a very solid, driven citizen and great clubman (there is absolutely no risk of him acting up).

Apparently we don't have one of those..................................

 

[BrunoV]

Come on guys think outside the square a little.

If he stays fit until trade time it will be more than likely that surgery did cure him of an issue that was not genetic/degenerative. There will have been no real wear on his his legs either.

I am loathe to even mention his name but Joe Daniher is just another that will be added to list of forward/ruckmen we are already struggling to fit into our side. This wont be so much an issue next year but it is a potential problem and Gumbleton is out of contract now.

We could very realistically be of the view that Gumby is surplus to requirements. Despite his potential he is a very long way behind Hurley, Ryder, Crameri and even Hille as the guys he is competing with for a spot. I doubt that we would do anything to stall his career. I fully expect that we would just move him on for a pick because realistically, considering it is a speculative pick on your part, how could we ask for anything more than a third rounder?

You can say what you want about the quality of your entries into the forward 50 and the serviceable stop gap measures that are in place (and I agree) but there is no doubt that you could do with a quality CHF. It is worth the investment of 1 third round pick no matter how strong the draft may be.

 

[Aphrodite]

Come on guys think outside the square a little.

If he stays fit until trade time it will be more than likely that surgery did cure him of an issue that was not genetic/degenerative. There will have been no real wear on his his legs either.

I am loathe to even mention his name but Joe Daniher is just another that will be added to list of forward/ruckmen we are already struggling to fit into our side. This wont be so much an issue next year but it is a potential problem and Gumbleton is out of contract now.

We could very realistically be of the view that Gumby is surplus to requirements. Despite his potential he is a very long way behind Hurley, Ryder, Crameri and even Hille as the guys he is competing with for a spot. I doubt that we would do anything to stall his career. I fully expect that we would just move him on for a pick because realistically, considering it is a speculative pick on your part, how could we ask for anything more than a third rounder?

You can say what you want about the quality of your entries into the forward 50 and the serviceable stop gap measures that are in place (and I agree) but there is no doubt that you could do with a quality CHF. It is worth the investment of 1 third round pick no matter how strong the draft may be.

TBH you would be lucky to get a 4th or 5th rounder for him.

I doubt you will get a positive response in regards to Gumbleton, so best we leave it at that.

 

[Silvagnis]

We could very realistically be of the view that Gumby is surplus to requirements. Despite his potential he is a very long way behind Hurley, Ryder, Crameri and even Hille as the guys he is competing with for a spot. I doubt that we would do anything to stall his career. I fully expect that we would just move him on for a pick because realistically, considering it is a speculative pick on your part, how could we ask for anything more than a third rounder?

You can say what you want about the quality of your entries into the forward 50 and the serviceable stop gap measures that are in place (and I agree) but there is no doubt that you could do with a quality CHF. It is worth the investment of 1 third round pick no matter how strong the draft may be.

Ross Lyon would be more likely to come knocking on your door.

Carlton and Essendon rarely trade with each other.

 

[Azul]

TBH you would be lucky to get a 4th or 5th rounder for him.

I doubt you will get a positive response in regards to Gumbleton, so best we leave it at that.

4th round pick in the rookie draft is right on the money, Aphrodite.

 

[The_Wookie]

JUst noticing tonight that Hampsons contested mark average is higher than Jarrad Waites for the season (1.9 to 1.8) and hes by far the most dominant contested mark in the blues side at the moment (7 ahead of Kreuzer). More hitouts than Kreuzer as well by almost 30, although Warnocks average is better (by about a dozen hitouts ahead of Hampson). Hammer averages more scores than Garlett (1.3-1.2), and only Betts has kicked more goals this season (22-15). Hes the leading mark taker inside 50, ahead of Eddie betts (19-18)

Not bad for a ruck/forward.

 

[BlueTouchPaper]

JUst noticing tonight that Hampsons contested mark average is higher than Jarrad Waites for the season (1.9 to 1.8) and hes by far the most dominant contested mark in the blues side at the moment (7 ahead of Kreuzer). More hitouts than Kreuzer as well by almost 30, although Warnocks average is better (by about a dozen hitouts ahead of Hampson). Hammer averages more scores than Garlett (1.3-1.2), and only Betts has kicked more goals this season (22-15). Hes the leading mark taker inside 50, ahead of Eddie betts (19-18)

Not bad for a ruck/forward.

Per the thread title, what Waite lacks in statistics, he makes up for in structural importance.

Certainly not bad from Hammer, but Waite's structural importance is second to none for Carlton. He has the nous to create space for other forwards, he breaks packs more frequently and brings the ball to ground much more consistency. Hammer might be doing better statistically but I'd bet the house on Carlton doing better when Waite is lined up at FF.

Hopefully we'll soon have the players available so we can play tall forwards as our tall forwards as opposed to playing ruckmen as our tall forwards.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Gumbleton isn't injured any more. All reports are that he has killed it on the training track and in the weights room for at least 2 (and closer to 3) months now. We've been conservative with his comeback to ensure that when he plays he is fit enough to play well (rather than just play).

It is a no lose situation for Carlton. Gumby'd cost nothing and the potential upside is ridiculous. Obviously I hope he is with us and I think he could still be the best forward we have but I'd be equally as pleased for him to have a successful career elsewhere if that is what it takes (there is a developing log jam of key forwards on our list).

Even if he is not the player we drafted he would still be a better key forward prospect than Waite (who strikes me as more of a flanker and someone who would work really well in tandem with Gumby). If he is the player we drafted it would be the steal of the century.

If he gets injured you can cut your losses after a season and that is where it ends. In any event all suggestions are that Gumbleton is a very solid, driven citizen and great clubman (there is absolutely no risk of him acting up).

Not injured............until the inevitable next time.

 

[Sin City]

Our record with talls getting injured + Gumbleton = recipe for disaster

 

[BrunoV]

Not suggesting you draft an injured player at all. It is quite the contrary.

 

[gbatman]

always have, always will be a hopeless team when it comes to kicking straight. pathetick

 

[The Big Sticks]

always have, always will be a hopeless team when it comes to kicking straight. pathetick

Well getting Cloke won't fix that problem.

 

[gbatman]

FMD, it makes a massive difference when we don't kick the ball to the pockets and boundry, when we open up the game by pulling numbers back then running hard forward like Yarran does and when we have possession of the ball 50-80m from goal where we can kick it shorter to the forwards. Also moving it up the guts and getting it there quicker and delivering it from a more central position. Winning the clearances helped massively too. That makes things function.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

If he's fit, time to roll the dice with Luke Mitchell

 

[thylacine60]

Crazy talk, Bruce.

 

[The Flying Doormat]

Crazy...yeah, maybe. Gotta try him out sometime.

 

[gbatman]

Just though I'd bring up something with all the talk of us needing a gun tall forward and the possability with Cloke coming our way. There is this general attitude that we need a gun tall forward and all our problems will be solved. A Lot of people on here are of the beliefe that we need a guy to come in and kick 50-60+ goals a year. I don't recon this is entirely true. While it would be great, it's not necessary.

Tall forwards work best in groups and it's easy to get sidetracked with a big gun forward who is kicking bags in a side like Franklin and Cloke of the last few years and put it all down to them being suprestars. Thing is every gun tall forward has their foils and without a foil or two, it can bring any star crashing down to a meidiocre player. You don't have to look further than the difference it has made to Buddy since Hale, Roughead and Gunston have been playing. Now compare that to how Dawes and Cloke have been travelling since Brown departed. Not just this but for an example a little closer to home is how much Walker struggles with Waite out of the side. Just watch Essendon fall apart without Cramery, Ryder and Hurley. These guys are a great example of what I am getting at, 3 guys, none are really gun forwards but when they are all together they are bloody dangerous and Essendon were really hard to beat.

For Carlton it's going to be important to find 3 tall guys to play forward. That is how we go about winning a premiership next year. We know this from what we have seen from the success of other sides and the structure of forwardlines that contain a gun forward and how that structure allows them to get the best out of themselves. So allegidly we are after Cloke and that's great but don't expect anything from him if he's the only tall or there is just one other. We saw it last week (and most of the season), if you go short it means more running players in defence which makes it harder for our ground level players like Betts and Garlett because there are more quality small/medium sized players competing at ground level. It also means that the lose man is tall, for example Brian Lake. All of a sudden the best tall defensive defender goes to the one tall forward, the best tall attacking player is named on a wing and stands in the hole just like Lake did last weekend. You go with three talls and all of a sudden the guy standing in the hole becomes much smaller, if he is there at all and then the other question comes, who get's double teamed? Usually 3 tall forwards means that the defenders are spread out more and this is a good thing, rather than crowding one sole target. It also means more one on ones.

So what have we got? Mitchell is a promising young player that has had a two month run of things in the VFL and to kick 4 goals and take a heap of marks against the top side in Port Melbourne suggests that he's ready to debut. The thing is he doesn't have to be Kernahan or Carey and he won't be until he plays at least 50 games. He just has to kick 1-3 goals per game, draw an opponant and make a contest. If he does any more than this is a bonus. It's more important that he plays a role rather than stars. If we play Casboult as our sole tall forward this weekend, he will get smashed and we will be calling for his head and picking his flaws to pieces. Although we are playing Richmond who have a weakness against tall forwards. So we have to team up and play our talls in threes. Casboult is an interesting one, looks the part and has the skills and as a part time ruckman is pretty decent. We are lucky to have him but we need to use him in the role that he's born which is as a part time ruck/forward. I recon if we are to structure up next season he is a big chance to be in our best 22, not as a gun player but is a solid contributor that is vital to our success, just as Hale is for north or Brown was for Collingwood. Obviously he will be competing with Hampson who could be even better in a well structured forward line.
Mitchell must play because he's most likely to play next year and that means we get him ready to play this year rather than muck around with developing him when we are going for a flag. I can only list a heap of Pros and 0 Cons in regards to playing him. Casboult needs Mitchell to play. The other thing to discuss is who is the CHF. Cloke hasn't arrived yet, Waite might be back this week in the VFL but we can't rely on him for 2013 even though he would be ideal for us as a CHF in a well structured forwardline. Thornton currently can fill the void, he's played as an up the ground CHF before and done really well. Rowe is another that fits this mould for next year. Henderson with his athleticism and footy smarts fits the role really well but he might be too valuable at CHB.

So in conclusion, the quality of how good our tall forwards are isn't overly important. Small forwards don't work if there are too many of them and Tall forwards don't work if there isn't enough of them and teams don't succeed without the right balance. I believe structure far out weights the quality of the 6 players running through our forward line and if good small medium players miss out then they miss out. I just recon with three tall targets, the guys we have on our list already would score a heap of goals and guys like Walker, Betts and Garlett could be kicking 50 goals a year with the right structure and right ammount of supply going in. Would love to see us stretch oppositions defences as well as worry them at ground level and to have the opposition really guessing who we target when going forward. This week we have an oppertunity to get the balance right for the first time in a long time with Betts, Garlett, Mitchell, Casboult, Collins, Thornton and Warnock/Kreuzer all fit. And hey, with two talls up forward, Kreuzer and Warnock might find it easire to take marks and kick goals because the quality of their opponants will drop.