Full de-listings

[_RT_]

we just cut orielly, 2yrs. westhoff 2yrs, jakobi 1yr, hislop 3 yrs, hicks 2 yrs, contin 2yrs and it leaves just miller a mature type. that is your strike rate with rookies we all know it is a high hit and miss process.we go thru it almost inclusively for two yrs because we may just find one or two good players if we are lucky.
yes we have the option of cutting after 1 yr, it happens rarely and any rookie we take the logical planning would be we take them for two yrs or not at all. that rt it seems is the way it is most of the time.

to me it is logical in a strong deep draft to fill up on rookies.
its also logical in a shallow draft use late picks instead. especially if the youth pool is so shallow,its also logical if the youth pool is so shallow target more mature types with those late picks.

Therein lies your problem Claws, to fill with rookies in a strong draft you have to hope that they last through until the rookie draft. You see if we do as you suggest and take the extra couple of late round picks this year in the ND we might only end up with 5 picks in the ND next year. So after 5 picks we will be sitting around while other clubs, who are only taking a maximum of 3 picks this year, load up on late round kids in the ND. By time the rookie draft rolls around we'll probably find that most of the kids that we may have wanted to take as rookies are already gone.

at the end of the day there is really no difference other than you use your picks in the 70s rather than in the hundreds and you target a few extra mature types it must give you a better chance of finding a couple of decent players

tell me what pick would you rather have 73 or 103. and rt please get it straight we are not talking just kids we are talking taking some reasonable mature players.

There is one major difference and that is that if we take them in the ND we're stuck with them for 2 years regardless of how badly they perform. By taking them in the rookie draft, which will be equal to taking them at 73 91 109 etc etc we're still taking them in much the same spot that we would take them in the ND the difference being that we can cut them if they don't show anything. BTW if they are mature types who have had a few years in the system even at state league, they should be able to show something very quickly at AFL level, even if its just glimpses that give you something to work with. You see what I am suggesting is that you take a mixture of 18 year old kids and 22-23 year old mature types in the rookie draft. The 18yr olds you know need some time so they get their 2 years. On the other hand the more mature bodied 22-23 year olds should be able to show you something from the get go and quickly.

tell me why didnt we rookie derickx last yr or why didnt we do it with webberley or nason. we put them on the list proper it was a process worth going thru for two yrs or is the process not worth going thru to you.or only worth going thru when the club says so.

It depends what you're trying to get out of going through the process. With what I'm suggesting we're keeping 2 known players in Thursfield and Webberley for an extra 12 months as depth/backup for the kids that are ahead of them on the list. In 12 months time we can thank both for their time and efforts and move them on freeing up an extra couple of spots to use in a stronger ND next year.

To me it seems like the process you want to go through has nothing to do with actually finding long term players and more to do with saying well at least we got rid of those 2 hacks, even if it meant replacing them for 2 years with players who offer little if any more in terms of improvement.

let me finish by saying i disagree with what most are proposing. i will be extremely disappointed if we dont use 73 and the psd pick at least and i think these picks should be targeted at mature players. we have nothing to lose and plenty gain.

anyway thats my position on it like 2010 says its likely we will yet delist a couple more heres hoping we do. ive seen enough of thursfield and webberley over the last 2 to 6 yrs to know it will do no harm to try someone else.

But we do have plenty to lose Claws. As I have pointed out taking 2 late picks in the ND and another in the PSD will see us lose the ability to take 3 extra picks in next years stronger draft. Now I ask you, what would you prefer 7-8 ND picks in a strong ND and 3 picks in a weak one or 5 picks in each? To me its pretty clear that the first option is much better when trying to build a list.

 

[_RT_]

might be an assumption but sheesh its an easy one to make.there are so many on the list that are not hard to upgrade on. and even if we fail to upgrade seems to me we lose nothing as there is nothing to lose.

Whats better Claws, keeping known players like Will and Webberley for another 12 months or drafting 2-3 speculative picks in a weak draft that are on guarateed 2 year deals?

oh by the way not saying im right as im as unsure as thenext bloke when it comes to contracts but i make it 14 coming out of contract next yr. with the rookies that are bound to fail when we take em this yr because of such a shallow draft we may well delist 4 or 5 of them after one yr as well.

Using your propsal of delisting Webberley and Thursfield this year then coming out of contract next year are:
Browne - 50/50
Connors - given he wanted out this year likely gone
Derickx - 50/50
MacDonald - 50/50
McGuane - given he wanted out likely gone
Gourdis - likely gone
Edwards - should be re-signed
Deledio - will re-sign
Foley - will re-sign
Vickery - will re-sign
Batchelor - will resign

So by my count thats only 3 definite delistings & 3 possibles although you would suggest that one of Browne or Derickx will remain given our lack of ruck depth. Which means 5-6 picks in next years draft. However if you re-sign Webberley and Thursfield to 1 year deals this year, we would have an extra 2 picks in next years draft meaning 7-8 picks are available to us.

Much more likely to find upgrades on the hacks with late round draft picks in a strong draft next year than trying to hit the bullseye this year in a shallow draft.

 

[tigerfan1961]

Your rhetoric is the same that has landed us such gems as Mitch Farmer, Ben Nason, Jeromey Webberly and Tom Derickx. All dominated their respective state leagues mate and are they going to play in our 11th flag?

Thank god you're not in charge.

Geez Lids, he was injured all year, showed quite a bit in my eyes in the NAB Cup. I have real confudence that Big X has all of the required tools to make it. Just about whether he wants it badly enough IMO.

 

[tigerfan1961]

your assuming any player we take to automatically be a list clogger.and you assume we can get rid of all the list cloggers in one go.
if we use 7 rookie picks and find just one good player we will do well have you seen the hit miss rate with these picks.
if we take 3 mature players on minimum wage for practically nothing as far as picks go and we find just 1 good one we are miles in front. cutting two extra duds this yr is two less we have to cut next yr or more likely the yr after.
5 to 7 yr underachievers have killed this club. the failure to turn them over and failure to use enough picks in the nd is what we have done and suffered for it.

who cares if we take 3 older players and they fail surely it is better to give them a go than persevere with known duds.
this is the draft process mate get em in keep those that make it delist the ones that dont and go again. we will always take our fair share of failures but we will never know either way if we refuse to go thru the process in the first place.
again just for you no matter what players we take, 7 rookies or 4 rookies and 73 79 and psd pick they are all very likely to get 2 yrs.
there are plenty of players who would be upgrades on our players running around in the wafl and as such deserving of 2 yrs.

thursfield un contracted a 7 yr underachiever cut him and give horsley or someone else a go.
webberley such an ordinary player uncontracted cut him and give carnell or some other player a go.
put newman on the vet list and use the psd pick on any number of players.

what do we lose any one we take is worthy of two yrs. was derickx a mistake even if he gets cut next yr. of course he wasnt. we go thru a process that gives us a chance to build the list and go thru a cheap but good process.that also enables us to cut hacks quicker from the list.

what the hell was hartley bought to the club for if not to look at and find mature players who would be upgrades on what we have. a blind man can find them.
why not give a barlow a chance or broughton, curnow, crmeri, duigan, garlett x2 grima jamison, mumford, mzungu puopolo strattan just to name a few off the top of my head. all as mature recruits from minor leagues. and yes theres probably twice as many who have failed.
i know what process id rather see them go thru and i would want to see them regularly go thru it regardless of success rates.

anyway i once again seem to disagree with most. once again we will wait and see who turns out to be correct.
we continue as a club to under value the draft and the need to turn over under achievers.
surely they are learning something from the past. miss with our two nd picks and we had damn well better get a shedload right next yr.those list holes we have worked so hard to fix will just reapper all over again what a poor process.
ah the rfc and processes or good ones just dont go hand in hand..

finally you would think when other clubs spurn our players come trade time they would learn something. instead they give them contracts more often than not for more than 1 yr.

You are far far too negative on the RFC Mate. Have at least some faith that they now have systems in place and know what they are doing. You will no doubt point to the fact that 30 years of cr@p shows they know nothing, but IMO, the last 2-3 years of drafting and managing the list has been pretty good. Yes, we still have McGuane and others still under contract, but they fall out of contract next year and with a strong draft in the offing, changes wil be made. At the time they were re-signed, they were all we had!!

Webberley has had two years and his skill set looks ok to me. Maybe this year, he can come of age. He has CONSTANTLY been the best/in the best players at Coburg, yet he is a Dud in your eyes. If he was not on our list already, he is exactly the type of State League player you are touting to be a good target.

Give him another year at least- his skills and gut running look ok to me from the games I have watched him play.

Also, there is still time for other players to be delisted this year so why stress now? There is plenty of time left before the final list lodgement. No doubt, Newman will be put on the Vets list (if eligible??) and you would have to think Kel Moore is on shaky ground. I will be surprised if we do not have 4 ND picks, along with one in the PSD.

With the beefed up recruiting structure, I am sure that FJ and his team will have clearly had discussions with CC regarding what they think of this years draft pool (U18's and State League players) and who may be available at our various picks. That will determine how many picks we have.

With the new ratings system they have in place, and the improved resources in the recruiting dep't, at this stage, we have to trust that they know what they are doing.

 

[santa claws]

Whats better Claws, keeping known players like Will and Webberley for another 12 months or drafting 2-3 speculative picks in a weak draft that are on guarateed 2 year deals?



Using your propsal of delisting Webberley and Thursfield this year then coming out of contract next year are:
Browne - 50/50
Connors - given he wanted out this year likely gone
Derickx - 50/50
MacDonald - 50/50
McGuane - given he wanted out likely gone
Gourdis - likely gone
Edwards - should be re-signed
Deledio - will re-sign
Foley - will re-sign
Vickery - will re-sign
Batchelor - will resign

So by my count thats only 3 definite delistings & 3 possibles although you would suggest that one of Browne or Derickx will remain given our lack of ruck depth. Which means 5-6 picks in next years draft. However if you re-sign Webberley and Thursfield to 1 year deals this year, we would have an extra 2 picks in next years draft meaning 7-8 picks are available to us.

Much more likely to find upgrades on the hacks with late round draft picks in a strong draft next year than trying to hit the bullseye this year in a shallow draft.

oh dear its like debating with old rasor not worth the hassle as it just goes round and round. needless to say we totally disagree on this i will stick with my original assetion that to use just 2 picks is a disgrace when one considers the state of the list. and if we are no longer in a position to delist more because of recent signings that would be an even bigger disgrace and bordering on incompetence.

my understanding is.
deledio, foley, mcguane, tuck, vickery, white, batchelor, connors, mcdonald, derickx, gourdis and edwards all come out of contract next yr i think we can add moore astbury and post to that list im not sure.
im not not sure with graham either 2012 or 2013. not to mention jackson and his contracat situation has he resigned if so for how many yrs he is only worthy of one yr and reality says he should be delisted the dumbest footballer in the country.

like i said it just goes around and around iwill finish by saying id be more than happy with
15 kid 26 kid 55 kid.
psd tom lee 20 yr old from claremont.
so thats 4 young players.

73 nick carnell 23 i think coburg.
79kyle horsley subiaco
these two would be best 22 or damn close to it and a definate upgrade on
rookie list
young ruckman lief cope maybe.
callum sinclair
willie wheeler
ryan cook
tim mohr
i could add others who are worth trying callum wilson beau wilkes
they are all what you would call recycled players or players that have been overlooked in their draft yr and have now gone on to dominate at state levels with good attributes that should see them make a good fist of afl.

then there is kids that may be available like waylan manson or max duffy theres a chance they would be available with a late pick like 79.

i read recently somewhere that you trade for depth and needs and draft for stars. it was a paul roos quote spoken by a poster.

we get quality with 15 26 the idea is to then add best 22 players at low cost. i have no doubt carnell and horsley would be best 22 they are both a need and add to depth and are low cost.

we have done this for the last 2 seasons why stop now there is no reason to stop.

i see no need to hang onto proven battlers.this is where we clearly differ you worry about being able to cut enough next yr and i think we have no problem at all with it.i suppose a lot of it comes down to how you rate our players.

anyyway i cant say anymore on it without going round in circles so we agree to disagree again. i can only hope we will have another cut of players before the draft.

 

[NQTIGER]

Funny you should say that claws, some people like to go round and round in circles.....

 

[tigs2010]

Geez Lids, he was injured all year, showed quite a bit in my eyes in the NAB Cup. I have real confudence that Big X has all of the required tools to make it. Just about whether he wants it badly enough IMO.

If fit, will play round 1 as a 2nd ruck. Vickery/Riewoldt as key forwards. Griffiths unlikely to be ready and saves us playing Miller. Dimma loves this bloke.

 

[Madtiger2006]

Griffiths unlikely to be ready

Who says?

 

[deledio7]

we have picks 15 and 26 to try and find guns as you put it. pick 55 should be used in an attempt to find another decent kid but no guarantees. any body taken after this should be viewed as us trying to upgrade on current players. they may not be long term keepers but they will be better than those we keep.

if you think this debate is about finding gun players with later picks you are very much mistaken.

and i suggest you do just a little bit of homework for yourself before you right off mature wafl sanfl vfl players.

as for farmer he came from an afl club in a player swap.
derickx has misssed basically his first season thru injury. i think you will find he will be an upgrade on graham. and webberley and nason did not dominate their leagues both have obvious weaknesses and probably should not have been taken in the first place.

and i feel generous heres just a few of the top of my head who have come from minor leagues, mzungu, pederson, puopolo, podsiadly, silvagni, stanley, wonaemirri garlettx2, grima, ballantyne, barlow , hardingham, mumford, as i said do a bit of research for yourself. the surface has been hardly scratched when it to taking mature players from minor leagues its a process well worth going thru with late picks its all about cost and reward. simply put target your quality kids with early picks and take the punt with very late ones. really is cut and dry and is not rocket science.

It's not about finding guns, claws, but it's about building a premiership list. You're the most contradictory poster on Bigfooty. You lament our list cloggers and yet you are all for us going out and value adding on our mediocre list. I am all for targeting standout state league players but not at the expense of elite talent in an exceptional draft.

I am well educated on state leagues mate. I'm aware Farmer was on Ports list but fact remains he was playing really good footy in the SANFL. You're wrong about Webberly. He was just about the best player in the TSL when we picked him up. Derickx is injured but when he got on the park he was woeful. I understand he isn't fit but we wasted that ND pick. No doubt.

I am sick to death of these quick fix solutions. I can bare holding onto 3 or 4 players and targeting a far better draft. I am really surprised by your standpoint on this issue to be honest.

 

[deledio7]

Geez Lids, he was injured all year, showed quite a bit in my eyes in the NAB Cup. I have real confudence that Big X has all of the required tools to make it. Just about whether he wants it badly enough IMO.

I understand that mate. I watched him play for Coburg and although he wasn't fit, he was shocking. I hope he makes it next year because he is going to have to when considering his age.

It was just a ridiculous selection in the ND.

 

[tigs2010]

Who says?

Common sense

He will play games there but he won't be able to play 22 games as a CHF at AFL level. I also think he may play CHB next year to save his shoulders getting chopped and hacked every week.

 

[santa claws]

It's not about finding guns, claws, but it's about building a premiership list. You're the most contradictory poster on Bigfooty. You lament our list cloggers and yet you are all for us going out and value adding on our mediocre list. I am all for targeting standout state league players but not at the expense of elite talent in an exceptional draft.

I am well educated on state leagues mate. I'm aware Farmer was on Ports list but fact remains he was playing really good footy in the SANFL. You're wrong about Webberly. He was just about the best player in the TSL when we picked him up. Derickx is injured but when he got on the park he was woeful. I understand he isn't fit but we wasted that ND pick. No doubt.

I am sick to death of these quick fix solutions. I can bare holding onto 3 or 4 players and targeting a far better draft. I am really surprised by your standpoint on this issue to be honest.

contradictory my arse.
i have always advocated we use early picks in the nd hopefully on quality or those guns.1st and second rnd picks is all about finding very good quality players.

i have always advocated we have a big enough intake of youth every yr.

i have never ever been against targeting mature players for the right price.

i lament us trading out of the early draft to target players, usually players who are not quality and have clear and obvious deficiencies that make them a risk.

where have i said we should take state league players at the expense of exceptional talent in the nd.
i argued pretty hard on another thread that we just had to find a way to get back into the earlier rnds in this draft. targeting quality.
i will argue that you have just as much a chance of finding decent players from state leages with late picks as you do with taking kids after pick 60.especially in a compromised draft yr.
im not advocating we do it next yr.

im not arguing we participate heavily in this draft and forgo next yrs either. how the hell you came up with that is beyond me.
what im saying is we should participate in both, this yr and next as there is more than enough below standard players that we need to turn over to do both.

im arguing we take 4 kids at least and a couple of mature types late this yr .
im all for useing 5 plus picks next yr and filling up the rookie list in a strong draft yr.

yes i was wrong about webberley and his yr in tassie but after two yrs hes just ordinary at best. i cannot see any more improvement left in him. we have had him for two yrs and i think we can easily do better.in saying this he was a late pick a mature type and we took him at the right place in the draft.
we went youth early targeting quality and then tried to value add very late it was the right process. im not advocating we do any different this yr.

i dont have a problem in us taking webberley or nason or derickx.
webberley and nason would not have been my choices. in fact i had some heated debate about them when we drafted them.
i was adamant that we could have picked them up in the rookie draft and that we should have targeted some talls with those picks.
i argued strongly that we had enough smalls on the list and we were just loading up with too many.i also argued they would struggle because of their size.with them we were taking mature players who were not best 22 players and unlikely to become one.

ben nason was a 5th rnd selection at 71. webberley was a 5th rnd selection at 67.they were both under 22 so still young there was nothing wrong with that process tell me how many kids make it who are taken out of the 5th rnd. the success rate would be similar to the rookie draft.in many ways you have a much better idea of their chances if they are that bit older at least they have done well against men.

my understanding is we took nason and webberley primarily because they were good ball users and this area was killing us, it still does to a lesser degree. the thing was we took martin astbury dea griffiths and taylor we looked after quality and as such we had the opportunity to value add as you say. i think most clubs do the same sort of thing with these later picks.

derickx who i did advocate we give a chance to was taken in the 4th rnd at 63 in a compromised draft.
i had no problem with us useing such a late pick. we needed a ruckman who may have been ready to go.
he was still young for a ruckman and had shown more than enough at claremont. it was a good process to go thru the same process we went thru with webberley.
just like rookie picks, with late picks you are going to have your fair share of misses. more misses than hits. what do you expect with such late picks in the nd.
at least with a 22 24 yr old you can at least say yep theres a good chance with this one that he is better than half the list and theres a good chance he will be best 22. you cant say that with kids taken so late unless you have a hidden gem.
i dont have a problem with where we took any of them because we did not forego the early nd and we took a decent quota of kids. if we participate early draft and take our quota of kids every yr, every yr id be up for giving a mature type who has good attributes a go from the minor leagues.

finally when you have so many d graders value adding c graders is an important part/ way of growing your list.

we will be in front if derickx ends up being better than graham but have lost very little if he fails. either way he is worth having on the list and going thru the process for two yrs.one key is not hanging on for two long if he doesnt show much.

 

[tigerfan1961]

I understand that mate. I watched him play for Coburg and although he wasn't fit, he was shocking. I hope he makes it next year because he is going to have to when considering his age.

It was just a ridiculous selection in the ND.

I reckon you are wrong about him Lids- he has all the attributes to be a very good player for us.

He has marking ability, mobility, agility. It all depends on how much he wants it. Only slight query on my part is whether he likes the body contact??

 

[santa claws]

gonski are.
nason, morton, farmer, taylor, and now thursfield.
cmon tiges just one more and newman to the vet list will do.