Is Cricket 'DEAD' Thread

[grizzlym]

Nah, Imran, in my book, is clearly in front of Vettori. His bowling early in his career was devastating. His bowling average when his career was over was absolutely exceptional. His batting was also pretty impressive. Imran was a much more dynamic cricketer too.

Kallis and Imran, for mine, sit below Sobers.

I'd also take Hadlee over Vettori any day of the week. Incredible bowler, and much more than handy batsman.

Vettori has eked out an extraordinary career, and while his numbers stack up in these days of devalued test cricket, he's not great in my eyes like Imran or Hadlee or Kallis.

 

[Langford4FBOTC]

Nah, Imran, in my book, is clearly in front of Vettori. His bowling early in his career was devastating. His bowling average when his career was over was absolutely exceptional. His batting was also pretty impressive. Imran was a much more dynamic cricketer too.

Kallis and Imran, for mine, sit below Sobers.

I'd also take Hadlee over Vettori any day of the week. Incredible bowler, and much more than handy batsman.

Vettori has eked out an extraordinary career, and while his numbers stack up in these days of devalued test cricket, he's not great in my eyes like Imran or Hadlee or Kallis.

Probably agree with your comparisons of Imran and Hadlee with Vettori. It's always hard to compare different styles of players though.

I'd still have Botham and Kallis above the pack for the reason that they would have got a game in the national side as a specialist batsman or bowler. If Kallis was just a usefull 7 or 8 bat, I'd still have him in the side and if Botham was just a part time bowler, there wouldn't be much argument over his selection.

Sobers was simply a freak at everything including fielding.

There is one glaring ommission from the modern day bunch. The greatest left arm quick to play the game could also handle the willow ....... Wasim Akram

 

[Henry Jr]

Think you're forgetting the greatest of all..... Gary Sobers

Vettori is a terrific cricketer... Best left arm orthodox bowler of his generation. More than handy lower order bat and a very good captain.

I'd put him on par with Imran, Kapil and Sir Richard in the all rounder stakes. Botham and Kallis next rung up. There are probably some others from earlier eras who sit comfortably in that company. Daylight then to Sobers who sits miles above them all just as Bradman does for Batsmen.

Of course. But when you look at the numbers, Sobers and Kallis are very close indeed.

But given that Sobers could bowl spin as well as pace, that makes him the complete alrounder.

 

[grizzlym]

O'Keefe just brought up an interesting point re Vettori - his strike rate is very high. He has wickets on the board, but isn't what you'd call a striker, nor does he have the weapons of others.

 

[go hawks!!!]

Sobers v anyone in the current game....well there is no comparison.

Just like comparing Ponting to the Master-blaster Viv Richards, just no valid comparison.

The two 'greatest' batman over the last 20 years for me is a toss up between Tendulkar and Lara, Ponting is not included, and its a huge debate as to who the best actually is, and is influenced by many factors such as India playing on concrete pitches, Lara playing for a shit team, ponting coming in after Hayden and langer etc.....i.e success of the team.

For me, i did not see him play, but sobers is the best all rounder.

 

[grizzlym]

Well, there's an interesting statistical analysis between Ponting and Sobers. Sobers started out slowly as a batsman and had a purple patch as a batsman, of around 20 tests, averaged in the mid 70s or thereabouts. Ponting had a similar purple patch as a batsman and averaged in the high 70s. I think, Bradman excluded, are the two best runs of form by any batsman in cricket history. Ponting at his peak was as fine a batsman as I've seen. But the decline, much like the side he plays for, as been protracted and difficult to watch.

On another note: isn't Michael Clarke maturing magnificently?

Ponting's record is better than Viv's by the way. Why no valid comparison?

 

[Henry Jr]

I reckon you can add 10 runs to Viv's average just for the fear that he put into teams when he strode to the crease.

We talk alot about partnerships, Viv's presence would have no doubt helped his partner at the other end.

 

[go hawks!!!]

Ponting's record is better than Viv's by the way. Why no valid comparison?

Thats my point exactly and that is hard to debate.

Viv averaged 50.23 in 121 tests, and 47.00 in ODIs.

Ponting 156 tests at 52.

So what is the difference? and this is the debate

The bowling attacks faced by Sir Viv were much stronger (by country) than what Ponting faced. Do we want to elaborate on this? the quality of bowling worldwide has been shit for sometime, its a pleasure to see Dale Steyn power in cause he is good, apart from mcgrath there have not been many 'good' fast bowlers in comparison to the 1980s. As i say, this is a debate and my opinion, for me you cannot judge who is the best without thinking about who they play for and the quality of the bowling during that decade/ time period.

 

[Henry Jr]

The two 'greatest' batman over the last 20 years for me is a toss up between Tendulkar and Lara, Ponting is not included, and its a huge debate as to who the best actually is, and is influenced by many factors such as India playing on concrete pitches, Lara playing for a shit team, ponting coming in after Hayden and langer etc.....i.e success of the team.

Past 20 years. Must have played 30 tests (Jonathon Trott @ 57.79 would be right up there otherwise).

SR Tendulkar (India) 1991-2011 172 285 31 14572 248* 57.37 50 59 13

KC Sangakkara (SL) 2000-2011 103 173 12 9167 287 56.93 27 38 4

JH Kallis (ICC/SA) 1995-2011 147 250 39 12005 201* 56.89 40 55 11

SR Waugh (Aus) 1992-2004 124 193 35 8830 200 55.88 29 37 16

R Dravid (ICC/India) 1996-2011 160 278 32 13094 270 53.22 36 62 8

BC Lara (ICC/WI) 1992-2006 130 230 6 11904 400* 53.14 34 48 17

RT Ponting (Aus) 1995-2011 157 268 28 12635 257 52.64 39 58 16

TT Samaraweera (SL) 2001-2011 68 108 19 4683 231 52.61 12 27 9

Mohammad Yousuf (Pak) 1998-2010 90 156 12 7530 223 52.29 24 33 11

V Sehwag (ICC/India) 2001-2011 92 159 6 7980 319 52.15 22 30 14

A Flower (Zim) 1992-2002 63 112 19 4794 232* 51.54 12 27 5

MEK Hussey (Aus) 2005-2011 65 113 12 5188 195 51.36 15 26 10

DPMD Jayawardene (SL) 1997-2011 125 207 13 9954 374 51.30 29 40 11

Younis Khan (Pak) 2000-2011 71 125 9 5940 313 51.20 18 25 13

ML Hayden (Aus) 1994-2009 103 184 14 8625 380 50.73 30 29 14

KP Pietersen (Eng) 2005-2011 78 133 7 6361 227 50.48 19 25 7

GC Smith (ICC/SA) 2002-2011 93 163 10 7642 277 49.94 23 29 10

AN Cook (Eng) 2006-2011 72 125 7 5868 294 49.72 19 26 3

 

[Langford4FBOTC]

Stats are important but only tell part of the story.

 

[Henry Jr]

Thats my point exactly and that is hard to debate.

Viv averaged 50.23 in 121 tests, and 47.00 in ODIs.

Ponting 156 tests at 52.

So what is the difference? and this is the debate

The bowling attacks faced by Sir Viv were much stronger (by country) than what Ponting faced. Do we want to elaborate on this? the quality of bowling worldwide has been shit for sometime, its a pleasure to see Dale Steyn power in cause he is good, apart from mcgrath there have not been many 'good' fast bowlers in comparison to the 1980s. As i say, this is a debate and my opinion, for me you cannot judge who is the best without thinking about who they play for and the quality of the bowling during that decade/ time period.

Ponting never had to make runs against Warne and McGrath.

Viv never had to make runs against Holding, Big Bird, Walsh and Curtley.

Only thing I will say is that Viv never played against Zimbo and the Bangers.

 

[Langford4FBOTC]

Thats my point exactly and that is hard to debate.

Viv averaged 50.23 in 121 tests, and 47.00 in ODIs.

Ponting 156 tests at 52.

So what is the difference? and this is the debate

The bowling attacks faced by Sir Viv were much stronger (by country) than what Ponting faced. Do we want to elaborate on this? the quality of bowling worldwide has been shit for sometime, its a pleasure to see Dale Steyn power in cause he is good, apart from mcgrath there have not been many 'good' fast bowlers in comparison to the 1980s. As i say, this is a debate and my opinion, for me you cannot judge who is the best without thinking about who they play for and the quality of the bowling during that decade/ time period.

Pitches, roped off grounds, light regulations, equipment have all skewed the game in the batsman's favour over the last decade..... Just some factors to take into account. Plus the professionalism of the game.

 

[go hawks!!!]

Pitches, roped off grounds, light regulations, equipment have all skewed the game in the batsman's favour over the last decade..... Just some factors to take into account. Plus the professionalism of the game.

Agree, plus the fact that bowlers are shit.

To henrys irrelevant post where he quoted stats. I was surprised by sangakarra stats, well done to him playing the 1st half of career as a wicket keeper batsman.

You can dismiss any stats involving Pakistan.

Henry, didn't u send me a text yesterday saying Clarke is shit, and I thought he was out?

 

[grizzlym]

Viv also came in after arguably the greatest opening partnership of all time.

Stats do only tell half the story, and that's part of what makes cricket so fascinating, it often comes down to your impression. The reason why I brought up those stats is that what they point out is that for an extended period, Ponting had a batting streak that was only bettered by one player (Bradman).

Ponting is a great, great batsman. He's on the decline and has been for a couple of years, and I think there is a propensity for that to flavour people's impressions of him. At his peak, I maintain, he was one of the best batsmen ever to play the game.

Viv was no doubt a great batsman. Belligerent, powerful and intimidating. Over their careers, I rate Tendukar and Lara more highly than Viv. Viv won on style points, but the other two were more complete batsmen against all types of bowling.

 

[grizzlym]

Pitches, roped off grounds, light regulations, equipment have all skewed the game in the batsman's favour over the last decade..... Just some factors to take into account. Plus the professionalism of the game.

Not sure how much weight that has. For example: Bradman and his contemporaries, played on uncovered minefield pitches, with little more than gardening equipment to protect themselves, and often played into the dark. How do their averages look in comparison? I'd argue that until the last 10 years or so, the greats across all eras were grouped in the same range of averages for both batting or bowling which provides a fair idea of how eras compared etc.

No doubt, test cricket has been cheapened.

 

[Langford4FBOTC]

Not specifically about Viv vs Lara vs Ponting vs Tendulkar, but when stats are close, it often comes down to the style in which the runs were made.

 

[grizzlym]

See, I'd prefer to watch Lara over anyone, any day. Still think Tendulkar is the better batsman.

What batsman do you rate, Langers?

 

[Langford4FBOTC]

Not sure how uch weight that has. For example: Bradman and his contemporaries, played on uncovered minefield pitches, with little more than gardening equipment to protect themselves, and often played into the dark. How do their averages look in comparison? I'd argue that until the last 20 years or so. The greats across all eras were grouped in the same range of averages for both batting or bowling.

I think it just enhances the reputation of past era players... And diminishes the current day a little. Bat technology has probably influenced things the most IMO.

 

[Langford4FBOTC]

See, I'd prefer to watch Lara over anyone, any day. Still think Tendulkar is the better batsman.

What batsman do you rate, Langers?

But does it make Lara a greater one?
I might say yes

 

[grizzlym]

I have nothing to base this on exept by gut reaction but if a guy like Gilchrist went back in time and played, or Ponting or Tendulkar, they would smash those olden attacks into oblivion. I also think the bowlers would wrack havoc too.

Look at all sports and you'd struggle to find one where the players of other eras are thought of as equal or better (on the whole).

On another note: Grizzlym Jnr copped a cricket bat in the head in this morning's match. Eye's blown up and all black and blue.

 

[grizzlym]

But does it make Lara a greater one?
I might say yes

Style points?

 

[go hawks!!!]

On another note: Grizzlym Jnr copped a cricket bat in the head in this morning's match. Eye's blown up and all black and blue.

Sounds like the next series of 'The Slap', ABC will be in contact soon.

 

[Langford4FBOTC]

See, I'd prefer to watch Lara over anyone, any day. Still think Tendulkar is the better batsman.

What batsman do you rate, Langers?

I'm a huge Viv fan. also rated Greenidge in that side. Ponting sits in that group without doubt. Strangely, at his peak I'd put Gilchrist amongst the group. Gower would rank up there for the Poms although the stats don't back it up. Greg Chappell was all class.
Lara for me though is the one. Probably not as consistent as Tendulkar, but when going had an incredible hunger for runs and was beautiful to watch.
These are just the ones I've seen live.

 

[Langford4FBOTC]

Just thinking about it some more..... I think a big factor separating batsmen is the ones who accumulate runs vs players who could dominate a quality attack. The later moves a player into a different league.

 

[Langford4FBOTC]

BTW, heard this morning that Cutting is carrying a side strain pick up in the nets in Brisbane trying to impress for a Test spot and aggravated in the Shield game limiting him to 9 overs in Vic's massive score.