Issues at Richmond

[_RT_]

Well a few of you might be aware that this weekend I have been posting my opinion on how I see the side being a bottom 4 side and I thought I would clarify my position on why I believe that. Here is a list of the issues I believe are holding us back:

1. Reliance on the same old players.
Whether it is Richo up forward or Bowden down back or players like Johnson in the middle or Simmonds in the ruck it seems that when things get a little tough Wallace turns to these types to steady the ship and get us back on course. Now that might be great for the here and now but what about the future when they aren't around anymore who is Wallace going to turn to then a bunch of untried kids who are going to be expected to just walk in and take over from these guys. We need to be giving these kids the opportunities now to make these positions theirs. Players like Hughes, Riewoldt, Pattison, Polo, Connors and the like need to be given games even if it means we end up at the arse end of the ladder again. For the sake of our future and being a team that wants to be a long term top 8 prospect we need to be laying the foundations now.

2. Stop Start Gameplan.
This is one of my pet hates when watching Richmond, time and again when it seems we have a team ready for the kill we decide to take our foot off the gas and try and play a slow possession based style of footy that almost always goes wrong and ends up with the opposition getting back into the game and over running us. Then there are other times when we need to soak up and bit of pressure and take the sting out of the game and instead of doing that we keep on trying to attack only to see the ball head back the other way with the opposition who continue on their merry way.

3. Lack of confidence
You could link this to the first issue as well because it seems that the most kids are now lacking confidence in their ability. Every year the kids get spoken up as being ready to have a break out year and then as soon as they have a poor game they are shunted back to Coburg where they gain confidence again, then its back up to Richmond for 1-2 games until they have a poor performance and then it is back to Coburg again where the cycle repeats itself. To see the kids become the players that we hope that they will, Terry needs to play them at AFL level for 4-6 weeks at a time and let them learn from their mistakes not hide them away at Coburg where they get a false sense of worth. Take a look at what the Hawks did, they played their kids (Ellis, Lewis, Roughead, Gilham, Brown & Birchall to name a few) at AFL level regardless of how they went and now are reaping the benefit as a number of them are now key members of the side.

A perfect example of this was last year was Hughes, played rounds 5-7 against the Eagles Cats and Port, first 2 games were servicable 3 goals in each game then a quiet game against Port saw him dropped back to Coburg, a few weeks later he gets another chance at AFL level and after a servicable game against Freo he had a shocker against the Dees mainly because he spent most of the game on the bench and was sent back to Coburg, 5 weeks later he gets a third crack at it plays ok in a 10 goal loss to the Swans has a quiet game against the Cats and back to Coburg again, any wonder the kid cracked the shits towards the end of the season.

These are a few of the issues I see with the 2008 Tigers as we head in the season and sadly unless these issues are addressed as the year goes on I don't think that much will change come the end of the 2008 season.

 

[deliberate!!]

Well a few of you might be aware that this weekend I have been posting my opinion on how I see the side being a bottom 4 side and I thought I would clarify my position on why I believe that. Here is a list of the issues I believe are holding us back:

1.Reliance on the same old players.
Whether it is Richo up forward or Bowden down back or players like Johnson in the middle or Simmonds in the ruck it seems that when things get a little tough Wallace turns to these types to steady the ship and get us back on course. Now that might be great for the here and now but what about the future when they aren't around anymore who is Wallace going to turn to then a bunch of untried kids who are going to be expected to just walk in and take over from these guys. We need to be giving these kids the opportunities now to make these positions theirs. Players like Hughes, Riewoldt, Pattison, Polo, Connors and the like need to be given games even if it means we end up at the arse end of the ladder again. For the sake of our future and being a team that wants to be a long term top 8 prospect we need to be laying the foundations now.

2. Stop Start Gameplan.
This is one of my pet hates when watching Richmond, time and again when it seems we have a team ready for the kill we decide to take our foot off the gas and try and play a slow possession based style of footy that almost always goes wrong and ends up with the opposition getting back into the game and over running us. Then there are other times when we need to soak up and bit of pressure and take the sting out of the game and instead of doing that we keep on trying to attack only to see the ball head back the other way with the opposition who continue on their merry way.

You've answered point 2, "Stop Start Gameplan" in point 1 by naming the culprits.
Therefore the reliance on the same old players are part of the problem, not the solution or those that deserve a helping hand.

A foot up the ass would be more appropriate.

 

[_RT_]

You've answered point 2, "Stop Start Gameplan" in point 1 by naming the culprits.
Therefore the reliance on the same old players are part of the problem, not the solution or those that deserve a helping hand.

A foot up the ass would be more appropriate.

And this is where the cycle of failure continues, we have not improved while relying on these players so why not try giving responsibility to a few of the young kids and see if they can't spark the side. I mean take a look at the last few years and some of our best games have been when we have had the kids take a leading role in the win. See the second Pies game last year as a classic example when it was the likes of Foley, Lids, Pattison, King, Jackson, Thursfield and McGuane leading the way.

 

[boodsyboy]

Yer got to agree on this one RT .Leadership group at Tigers not exactly awe inspirng below par.Long past time to move on from these players wgo have been average at best still things can turn around but they sure need a kick up the arse alright but maybe just maybe Geelong hammering will fire them up for round 1 cos if it dosent time to play only Kids.what chance has a kid got when most of our older players are soft and lazy I will wait till round 10 .for mine if we are not 5/5 time for the broom to come out.

always worried when players ike Tivendale are still at the club

 

[tugga]

Yer got to agree on this one RT .Leadership group at Tigers not exactly awe inspirng below par.Long past time to move on from these players wgo have been average at best still things can turn around but they sure need a kick up the arse alright but maybe just maybe Geelong hammering will fire them up for round 1 cos if it dosent time to play only Kids.what chance has a kid got when most of our older players are soft and lazy I will wait till round 10 .for mine if we are not 5/5 time for the broom to come out.

always worried when players ike Tivendale are still at the club

Ummmmm...Tivendale is the least oif our worries. We know what he's capabel of of what he's npt capable of.
It's the kids that we want to take us to the next step that that we don't know what what they're like.
if they haven't got it then we're in real strife.

 

[Bojangles17]

RT you could have saved MBs by talking about once issue and that is leadership..Nevermind that Richo and Browny are still key players, we've been watinbg for sarge and co to replace them , lets just say I wouldnt want to be hanging by my short and curlies that long...what we need is an emergance of leadership that makes a statement on the ground that is...The first step in this direction was appointing Foley and Newman as VC...No doubt to be annoited in 2009. Already Newy is responding to this ;with some spirited pre season form...If a few others stand up as the new breed then this malaise that has encumbered Punt rd for 2 decades may be over..

 

[paolo]

we are still paying for past mistakes made by our recruiters who made a specialty of getting it wrong and i hate to admit it but the hawks made us look like village idiots at the 2004 draft.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

Realise this! We ARE better than last year and if you are right, RT, about our finishing in the bottom 4, we certainly wont be bottom 2. Our inclusions are right up there with St Kilda's amazing draft gets. Brown, polo, simmonds, coughlan, mcmahon, morton...if they all achieve average form we will be so much better for it.

But on the other hand we still have massive deficiencies in the following areas
#1. Strong, experienced key defenders - Should have chased Rutten
#2. Experienced outside midfielders (shoot me down you may, but if we had a travis johnson or someone there for the dishoffs i'd feel alot more comfortable than our current outside midfielders in an out of form mcmahon, tivendale, hyde and co)
#3. Ruck Division: no 2nd GENUINE ruckman with any real AFL experience. Should have gone after Cam Wood, John Meesen or Ben Hudson... or anyone... instead of wasting time going after judd.
#4. Strength across the board
#5. Finding regular positions for developing players and forcing them to OWN that position. This is an institutional problem that goes back to the days of ben holland and ben harrison being swung back/forward/ruck or even further back to benny gale. This problem really started when we had difficulties finding a second forward to compliment richo: bourke, stuart edwards, jurica etc etc all casualties to Richomania and as a result we developed this mindset that if a forward cant work with richo, maybe just maybe, they will make a good defender. Since then Ray Hall, Ben Harrison, Aaron James, Brad Ottens, Ben Holland, Schulz, Pattison and Vardy have all been the victims of a Richo-centric setup, being switched from forward to back to ruck etc etc. This for me is our major problem...perhaps the root of all our problems.

So this is a year to view with neither optimism nor pesimism because we will finish our standard 9-13th

 

[mattdwyer]

Realise this! We ARE better than last year and if you are right, RT, about our finishing in the bottom 4, we certainly wont be bottom 2. Our inclusions are right up there with St Kilda's amazing draft gets. Brown, polo, simmonds, coughlan, mcmahon, morton...if they all achieve average form we will be so much better for it.

But on the other hand we still have massive deficiencies in the following areas
#1. Strong, experienced key defenders - Should have chased Rutten
#2. Experienced outside midfielders (shoot me down you may, but if we had a travis johnson or someone there for the dishoffs i'd feel alot more comfortable than our current outside midfielders in an out of form mcmahon, tivendale, hyde and co)
#3. Ruck Division: no 2nd GENUINE ruckman with any real AFL experience. Should have gone after Cam Wood, John Meesen or Ben Hudson... or anyone... instead of wasting time going after judd.
#4. Strength across the board
#5. Finding regular positions for developing players and forcing them to OWN that position. This is an institutional problem that goes back to the days of ben holland and ben harrison being swung back/forward/ruck or even further back to benny gale. This problem really started when we had difficulties finding a second forward to compliment richo: bourke, stuart edwards, jurica etc etc all casualties to Richomania and as a result we developed this mindset that if a forward cant work with richo, maybe just maybe, they will make a good defender. Since then Ray Hall, Ben Harrison, Aaron James, Brad Ottens, Ben Holland, Schulz, Pattison and Vardy have all been the victims of a Richo-centric setup, being switched from forward to back to ruck etc etc. This for me is our major problem...perhaps the root of all our problems.

So this is a year to view with neither optimism nor pesimism because we will finish our standard 9-13th

no matter how much we love richo, we all have to realise the sooner he retires the better ... honestly we need a new forward line set up and a new coach to teach these kids basic football ..

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

no matter how much we love richo, we all have to realise the sooner he retires the better ... honestly we need a new forward line set up and a new coach to teach these kids basic football ..

Exactly. We need a new forwardline setup, not new developing forwards.

Say what you like about Schulz, McGuane, Hughes, Riewoldt and Pattison but they all have particular skills that most clubs would be able to harness.

For mine Schulz is a full forward pure and simple. He would flourish if he was presented with a bit of space but he will never get that as long as you have richo there. Has the mark, kick, and leading skills required to be a capable full forward.

Hughes is a CHF with immense potential but somebody needs to put him on notice. He needs to grow some balls, get angry, put on lean muscle and train his guts out. Has the same set of tools as Schulz but has a longer kick.

McGuane has a great leap and good aggression but his lack of skill means that he either needs to be a last line of defence or offence player. Developing him as a CHB or third tall is stupid because nowadays both of those positions require alot of skill because most attacks originate in defence.

Riewoldt is a flanker sadly. I only wish you could combine Riewoldt's work ethic and aggression with Hughes skill...you would have an amazing CHF prospect. If he gets a bit more height he could play a KP role ala scott welsh.

Pattison is aggressive and has a good mark and ok skills, what he lacks in pace he makes up for in stamina and by the fact that he is one of the few "men" in our side...nearly fully developed. He should be Simmonds protege in all respects...a ruckman come CHF.

Our future lies in a competitive talls setup similar to this:

Full Backs: Thursfield McGuane
Centre Half Backs: Rance
Tap Ruckmen: Graham Putt
Utility Ruckmen: Simmonds
Centre Half Forwards: Hughes Riewoldt
Full Forwards: Schulz Gourdis

In my opinion we still need 1 more young, agile centre half back. Moore is a rank outsider to fill this role and Polak doesnt seem to be capable.

 

[_RT_]

Realise this! We ARE better than last year and if you are right, RT, about our finishing in the bottom 4, we certainly wont be bottom 2. Our inclusions are right up there with St Kilda's amazing draft gets. Brown, polo, simmonds, coughlan, mcmahon, morton...if they all achieve average form we will be so much better for it.

But on the other hand we still have massive deficiencies in the following areas
#1. Strong, experienced key defenders - Should have chased Rutten
#2. Experienced outside midfielders (shoot me down you may, but if we had a travis johnson or someone there for the dishoffs i'd feel alot more comfortable than our current outside midfielders in an out of form mcmahon, tivendale, hyde and co)
#3. Ruck Division: no 2nd GENUINE ruckman with any real AFL experience. Should have gone after Cam Wood, John Meesen or Ben Hudson... or anyone... instead of wasting time going after judd.
#4. Strength across the board
#5. Finding regular positions for developing players and forcing them to OWN that position. This is an institutional problem that goes back to the days of ben holland and ben harrison being swung back/forward/ruck or even further back to benny gale. This problem really started when we had difficulties finding a second forward to compliment richo: bourke, stuart edwards, jurica etc etc all casualties to Richomania and as a result we developed this mindset that if a forward cant work with richo, maybe just maybe, they will make a good defender. Since then Ray Hall, Ben Harrison, Aaron James, Brad Ottens, Ben Holland, Schulz, Pattison and Vardy have all been the victims of a Richo-centric setup, being switched from forward to back to ruck etc etc. This for me is our major problem...perhaps the root of all our problems.

So this is a year to view with neither optimism nor pesimism because we will finish our standard 9-13th

Hopefully we are better than what I see right now, but I stand by my call that right now we are a bottom 4 contender. It does not matter if we have good inclusions like the ones you named if we are still playing the same stop start, round in circles gameplan that was played last year and by all reports that is exactly what happened when a little bit of heat was applied by the Cats last weekend. I couldn't really give a crap about what the scoreboard said at the end of the game on Friday night it was the way we played the game that really interested me and as mentioned it was horrible.

Now onto your points:
Chasing Rutten would not have made a lick of difference IMO if the ball is still coming into our backline as easily as it was against the Saints and Cats. Rutten is so good at the Crows because they put so much pressure on the oppositions midfield and get back to support him. Something we seem to find hard to do.

Outside mids is the last thing we need to be focusing on if there is only 1-2 options to feed the ball out to them, having Foley and Tuck as the 2 main extractors makes it difficult for our outside mids to recieve quality ball all the time. Hopefully Cogs can get back to some sort of form but I don't expect that to occur until late in the season if at all. 2009 may well be his year.

Pattison will be a very handy second ruck now that he has Simmonds there to do the work early which then allows Patto to ruck against the oppositions second string instead of going up against players like Cox, Everitt, Ottens & King. However as the year progresses I hope that Wallace starts turning to Pattison more and more because as I said we need to stop relying on the older players week after week.

We are now in a position where we have greater depth than when Wallace took over, but the problem is the gap between those with experience and those coming through is still too great. We have 6 players with 150+ games to their name but only 3 other players with 100 and one of them was only recruited this year in McMahon. We will add 1-2 more names to the 100 game club this year in Polak and Coughlan, Hyde is a possibility but I really hope he doesn't because IMO that is getting us nowhere.

Now onto Richo and I think that even Richo himself might be starting to see it judging by him hinting at the possibilty that he might walk away at seasons end depending on results. For mine if we finish bottom 4 again then I think Richo should bow out, not because he doesn't have anything to offer but for the betterment of the club and the list going forward. Eventually we will have to deal with life as a club after Richo and I would hate to miss the chance to develop a kid with potential into a key forward because we have some loyalty to one man. Don't get me wrong Richo has been/is a great servant of the RFC but the reality is he can't go on forever no matter how much we want him to.

 

[Escude]

RT, what happened to your signature? richmond to make the top 8 in 08? that disappeared quickly it seems.Then changed it to 8th to 12th and now..bottom 4.Classic

 

[Foley u Legend]

we are still paying for past mistakes made by our recruiters who made a specialty of getting it wrong and i hate to admit it but the hawks made us look like village idiots at the 2004 draft.

how about when we took Fiora over Pavlich in 1999

 

[LuKe2428]

Realise this! We ARE better than last year and if you are right, RT, about our finishing in the bottom 4, we certainly wont be bottom 2. Our inclusions are right up there with St Kilda's amazing draft gets. Brown, polo, simmonds, coughlan, mcmahon, morton...if they all achieve average form we will be so much better for it.

But on the other hand we still have massive deficiencies in the following areas
#1. Strong, experienced key defenders - Should have chased Rutten
#2. Experienced outside midfielders (shoot me down you may, but if we had a travis johnson or someone there for the dishoffs i'd feel alot more comfortable than our current outside midfielders in an out of form mcmahon, tivendale, hyde and co)
#3. Ruck Division: no 2nd GENUINE ruckman with any real AFL experience. Should have gone after Cam Wood, John Meesen or Ben Hudson... or anyone... instead of wasting time going after judd.
#4. Strength across the board
#5. Finding regular positions for developing players and forcing them to OWN that position. This is an institutional problem that goes back to the days of ben holland and ben harrison being swung back/forward/ruck or even further back to benny gale. This problem really started when we had difficulties finding a second forward to compliment richo: bourke, stuart edwards, jurica etc etc all casualties to Richomania and as a result we developed this mindset that if a forward cant work with richo, maybe just maybe, they will make a good defender. Since then Ray Hall, Ben Harrison, Aaron James, Brad Ottens, Ben Holland, Schulz, Pattison and Vardy have all been the victims of a Richo-centric setup, being switched from forward to back to ruck etc etc. This for me is our major problem...perhaps the root of all our problems.

So this is a year to view with neither optimism nor pesimism because we will finish our standard 9-13th

mate we would never get rutten they would be crazy to trade him they would want deledo + ????(half decent player) for him.
BTW i am more than happy with thursfield, newman, king, polak running the backline when bowden goes to be honest i really with we will have a good backline in 3-4 years.

 

[_RT_]

RT, what happened to your signature? richmond to make the top 8 in 08? that disappeared quickly it seems.Then changed it to 8th to 12th and now..bottom 4.Classic

Do you always take predictions made 6 months before the season seriously? If so I might put up Geelong to win the spoon in 09 come October.

 

[Escude]

Do you always take predictions made 6 months before the season seriously? If so I might put up Geelong to win the spoon in 09 come October.

but you know geelong wont win the spoon in 09, you can back it up logically. You cannot be logical if you state richmond will win the premiership next year.

 

[LuKe2428]

2. Stop Start Gameplan.
This is one of my pet hates when watching Richmond, time and again when it seems we have a team ready for the kill we decide to take our foot off the gas and try and play a slow possession based style of footy that almost always goes wrong and ends up with the opposition getting back into the game and over running us. Then there are other times when we need to soak up and bit of pressure and take the sting out of the game and instead of doing that we keep on trying to attack only to see the ball head back the other way with the opposition who continue on their merry way.

3. Lack of confidence
You could link this to the first issue as well because it seems that the most kids are now lacking confidence in their ability. Every year the kids get spoken up as being ready to have a break out year and then as soon as they have a poor game they are shunted back to Coburg where they gain confidence again, then its back up to Richmond for 1-2 games until they have a poor performance and then it is back to Coburg again where the cycle repeats itself. To see the kids become the players that we hope that they will, Terry needs to play them at AFL level for 4-6 weeks at a time and let them learn from their mistakes not hide them away at Coburg where they get a false sense of worth. Take a look at what the Hawks did, they played their kids (Ellis, Lewis, Roughead, Gilham, Brown & Birchall to name a few) at AFL level regardless of how they went and now are reaping the benefit as a number of them are now key members of the side.

A perfect example of this was last year was Hughes, played rounds 5-7 against the Eagles Cats and Port, first 2 games were servicable 3 goals in each game then a quiet game against Port saw him dropped back to Coburg, a few weeks later he gets another chance at AFL level and after a servicable game against Freo he had a shocker against the Dees mainly because he spent most of the game on the bench and was sent back to Coburg, 5 weeks later he gets a third crack at it plays ok in a 10 goal loss to the Swans has a quiet game against the Cats and back to Coburg again, any wonder the kid cracked the shits towards the end of the season.

These are a few of the issues I see with the 2008 Tigers as we head in the season and sadly unless these issues are addressed as the year goes on I don't think that much will change come the end of the 2008 season.

you are spot on here im sick and tired of them chipping the ball round the backoine and midfield if anyone went to a geeling game this year u would notice that they score half here goals off run and carry though the backline and midfield.
We have one of the quickest teams in the league we have king, newman, mcmahon, rains just run and cary the ball for god sack i couldnt care less if they stuff up a few times from having the guts to ty and run the ball when we chip it around we loose the ball anyway.
Another thing i have notice when we have the ball say on the back-flank we have 4-5 players around the ball in one area we kick and handball about 5 times and gained 5 meters if we havent lost ground.

 

[_RT_]

but you know geelong wont win the spoon in 09, you can back it up logically. You cannot be logical if you state richmond will win the premiership next year.

I don't have to have logic to make a prediction in October/November, but I do use logic when making one 2 weeks out from the season proper.

 

[Truetiger]

Do you always take predictions made 6 months before the season seriously? If so I might put up Geelong to win the spoon in 09 come October.

Get to the tab and place some cash on that

In fact do the double

Tigers Premiership
Cats spoon

 

[Escude]

I don't have to have logic to make a prediction in October/November, but I do use logic when making one 2 weeks out from the season proper.

well ok, so that means right now you can go and tell people richmond will win the flag next year and dont expect people to laugh at ya?

 

[_RT_]

well ok, so that means right now you can go and tell people richmond will win the flag next year and dont expect people to laugh at ya?

If I posted that right now I would expect the whole site to laugh their collective asses off. Because making a prediction 18 months out is just plain stupid. Get the hint.

 

[Truetiger]

The only issue with Richmond at the moment is how we can fit all our members into the MCG on the last Saturday of september.

 

[Escude]

If I posted that right now I would expect the whole site to laugh their collective asses off. Because making a prediction 18 months out is just plain stupid. Get the hint.

ok..so what you are saying is that, people cannot make any prediction unless its pre season time

 

[Sausage roll]

the way I see it, there are two majors problems at the club.

1 Greg Miller

2 Jon

 

[_RT_]

ok..so what you are saying is that, people cannot make any prediction unless its pre season time

What I am saying is that anyone who takes much notice of predictions made in the months of October to January before sides have played practice matches has NFI.

BTW, those signatures I made during that time were another version of trolling and I got some bites over the summer using them. Quite a few times I had opposition posters focusing more on what my signature said than what my posts said which showed me they were beaten in arguements.