It's a good result because...

[ReaperX]

... Hardwick now has a month worth of footage and data to assess and make the judgement that we need to change (or rather, change BACK) a few things.

We don't deserve to be playing finals or being talked up this year when we put out these type of performances, and Hardwick is not an idiot, I'm sure he wants a job past 2015, and he knows that if we don't do something now, season 2015 is in serious doubt as well.

We won't sack him this year no matter what, even if we finish Bottom 6, but in 2015 he WILL get the arse if we haven't gotten ourselves back into contention. Sacking a coach with one year left is hardly a precedent, especially considering we have a fair bit of money again too.

Hardwick, PLEASE go back to your 2013 ways, it was the way forward but you've completely abandoned it and gone with this nonsense.

This season is lost in terms of premiership contention, but look at the Eagles, last year they finished 13th, and this year they're right back up there. We have a list that IS capable, like theirs was in 2013, but injuries + Hardwick's poor coaching choices are being exposed this year, just like injuries + Worsfold's coaching choices were exposed in 2013.

Unlike the Eagles with Worsfold, I still have faith in Dimma, but my patience is starting to wane.

I'd rather us win 7 or 8 games this year but go back to what was working in 2013 from this point onwards, than win 12 games from here on doing the same shit. Our 2013 style has potential, this current shit doesn't.

Thoughts?

 

[sante]

I like Dimma, but something has gone wrong.

He has to make a statement, admit we over did it with recycled players and play the kids and years end delist these hacks

 

[Mr Magic]

... Hardwick now has a month worth of footage and data to assess and make the judgement that we need to change (or rather, change BACK) a few things.

We don't deserve to be playing finals or being talked up this year when we put out these type of performances, and Hardwick is not an idiot, I'm sure he wants a job past 2015, and he knows that if we don't do something now, season 2015 is in serious doubt as well.

We won't sack him this year no matter what, even if we finish Bottom 6, but in 2015 he WILL get the arse if we haven't gotten ourselves back into contention. Sacking a coach with one year left is hardly a precedent, especially considering we have a fair bit of money again too.

Hardwick, PLEASE go back to your 2013 ways, it was the way forward but you've completely abandoned it and gone with this nonsense.

This season is lost in terms of premiership contention, but look at the Eagles, last year they finished 13th, and this year they're right back up there. We have a list that IS capable, like theirs was in 2013, but injuries + Hardwick's poor coaching choices are being exposed this year, just like injuries + Worsfold's coaching choices were exposed in 2013.

Unlike the Eagles with Worsfold, I still have faith in Dimma, but my patience is starting to wane.

I'd rather us win 7 or 8 games this year but go back to what was working in 2013 from this point onwards, than win 12 games from here on doing the same shit. Our 2013 style has potential, this current shit doesn't.

Thoughts?

Lloyd comes in and gets 107 DT points.

What makes you think its the coach?

We are on track but for the umpteenth time we are at least a few years away!

Our list is far from complete, we need further development and additions before we surge with a solid foundation!

 

[PhysicalGraffiti]

The top sides have depth and can cover injuries. They have the next tier of players who step up. Our next tier do not step up. Last year we had a lot of luck with injuries, this year we have injuries and our lack of depth shows.

 

[Maybenextyear]

I like Dimma, but something has gone wrong.

He has to make a statement, admit we over did it with recycled players and play the kids and years end delist these hacks

Is it that or has the game plan changed to a certain degree. Being beaten by Melbourne in the pre season should certainly have caused a few alarm bells.

 

[rideclutch]

Lots of confused players for mine. Blokes not knowing what to do, making poor decisions, generally playing with no confidence.

It's more than just a lack of ability, there's a systematic flaw with the way we're playing our footy. I can't see how (this part at least) can be attributed to anyone else but the coach.

 

[harimal12]

Where is Choco?? Is he still on the boundry

 

[ReaperX]

I'm cool with what's happening because we're going to find out a bit about Hardwick and these players over the next 18 months.

We're a better team than this, and we all know that, but at the moment Hardwick is under more pressure than he's ever been under before.

Considering how bad we were when he took over, he's basically had a free ride up until 2013 because he's been rebuilding the team. Well, he developed a team good enough to make the finals, and now he has to take responsibility when things don't keep improving.

Hardwick is still the man for 2014, I hope he can turn it around for this year, but even if we miss finals this year, it's fine. As long as we learn and take something from the year.

If this is still happening in the middle of 2015 though... well, he's gone.

 

[sante]

I'm cool with what's happening because we're going to find out a bit about Hardwick and these players over the next 18 months.

We're a better team than this, and we all know that, but at the moment Hardwick is under more pressure than he's ever been under before.

Considering how bad we were when he took over, he's basically had a free ride up until 2013 because he's been rebuilding the team. Well, he developed a team good enough to make the finals, and now he has to take responsibility when things don't keep improving.

Hardwick is still the man for 2014, I hope he can turn it around for this year, but even if we miss finals this year, it's fine. As long as we learn and take something from the year.

If this is still happening in the middle of 2015 though... well, he's gone.

Post of the year!

 

[Mr Magic]

I'm cool with what's happening because we're going to find out a bit about Hardwick and these players over the next 18 months.

We're a better team than this, and we all know that, but at the moment Hardwick is under more pressure than he's ever been under before.

Considering how bad we were when he took over, he's basically had a free ride up until 2013 because he's been rebuilding the team. Well, he developed a team good enough to make the finals, and now he has to take responsibility when things don't keep improving.

Hardwick is still the man for 2014, I hope he can turn it around for this year, but even if we miss finals this year, it's fine. As long as we learn and take something from the year.

If this is still happening in the middle of 2015 though... well, he's gone.

Nah 2016 is more key. Changes and fixes need to be long term. Quick fixes is how we create these problems in the first place!

 

[Coach_Required]

I like Dimma, but something has gone wrong.

He has to make a statement, admit we over did it with recycled players and play the kids and years end delist these hacks

We didn't over do it with recycled players, last year Grigg was decent when he actually put in the effort, this year he is a ****ing gumby soft prick who thinks he can get away playing at 50%

Vickery isn't a recycled player, he is just about the worst on our list, soft and cant be bothered chasing, Jack reiwoldt cops a lot of shit but I wish Tyrone would put in half the effort jack does defensively.

Conca & Ellis have gone ****ing backwards this year and don't work hard enough when we don't have the ball.

Shane Edwards is currently being a list clogger and needs to pull his finger out

Sam Lloyd was one of our best players tonight, does he fall under the recycled player?????

I'll give you Troy Chaplin, he is half the player now Rance is out injured. Recycled players isn't our problem, its the lack of effort and willingness to fight for the footy and for your teammate. It's pathetic

 

[sante]

We didn't over do it with recycled players, last year Grigg was decent when he actually put in the effort, this year he is a ******* gumby soft prick who thinks he can get away playing at 50%

Vickery isn't a recycled player, he is just about the worst on our list, soft and cant be bothered chasing, Jack reiwoldt cops a lot of shit but I wish Tyrone would put in half the effort jack does defensively.

Conca & Ellis have gone ******* backwards this year and don't work hard enough when we don't have the ball.

Shane Edwards is currently being a list clogger and needs to pull his finger out

Sam Lloyd was one of our best players tonight, does he fall under the recycled player?????

I'll give you Troy Chaplin, he is half the player now Rance is out injured. Recycled players isn't our problem, its the lack of effort and willingness to fight for the footy and for your teammate. It's pathetic

Agree, but effort only gets you so far in the end. We need class that works hard.

 

[Coach_Required]

Agree, but effort only gets you so far in the end. We need class that works hard.

True a few injuries have highlighted just how poor our depth is, we need another gun midfielder so we don't have to reply on Grigg and Conca and Ellis can remain our 3rd string midfielders.

 

[ReaperX]

Our list/talent is NOT the issue.

The issue is the gameplan, pure and simple. All the things that have been mentioned as issues are, stem from a lack of confidence in the gameplan.

This is a long read, but I will prove it to you.

Here's what has happened:



We make the finals last year based on a solid gameplan of link/chain/run off the backline and hitting it deep to Jack, with Vickery playing as a decoy, but this plan comes unstuck in the finals (which is deceptive because in reality it comes unstuck in about 45 minutes of footy, as we dominated the game prior to then, but then the occasion got to us... anyway I digress >.<), so....

Hardwick tries to bring in a new gameplan that he thinks will stand up in finals better, and that makes us even less reliant on Riewoldt being a major goal scorer at all, and makes Vickery our go to guy up forward, which means...

He starts implementing a plan that takes Jack up the field and gives Vickery the keys to a permanent forward line role as a go to guy. The players up the ground bringing the delivery forward are used to kicking it to Jack, who they have confidence in and who has the proverbial runs on the board, but are now instructed to kick it to Vickery instead. Then he instructs Jack to move up the ground and take the best defender with him, so that Vickery (on the 2nd best defender) can dominate and lead the forward line, with Jack playing a role more akin to his cousin Nick. However the problem is...

Vickery is not a #1 forward, and the players up the ground know that when they kick it to Vickery, the odds of him beating his opponent are less than what they are if it was Jack 1 on 1 with somebody. Now, in modern footy, most goals are created from the back-line drive, so if we're in a situation where the players delivering the ball to Vickery know in the back of their minds that there's more of a chance he is going to cough it up than Jack would. This bring in elements of doubt when moving the ball forward quickly, because a turnover means running a shitload back the other way to defend a score, which nobody really likes to do...

Now, as this doubt creeps into our midfielders and defenders about this new style of gameplan, our players begin to make uncharacteristic errors not in line with the talent they have, and they are too worried that their hard work is going to be for nothing because of the ever increasing likelihood of a turnover, and therefore the need to run back twice as hard to defend when they should actually be in scoring positions. This in turn leads to much more "safe" football and working it slowly, which then completely negates any of Vickery's strengths when they finally do get it forward, and makes us very, very predictable. Being so predictable and easy to read causes our players even MORE doubt...

Now this doubt, which as I've said starts leading to some honest mistakes, then starts to affect their confidence levels, and their belief that they are capable of beating other teams. As the confidence drops, so does the work ethic ("Why make that extra gut-running effort if our gameplan means that there's a good chance of it turning over in our 50 and the ball being raced back down for a score against before we can lock it in?"), and when the work ethic goes, the defensive pressure on the ball carrier dies as well. Once you lose that, well... go watch the pressure we were putting on in the Western Bulldogs games last year, and then watch last week's display (hint: the Dogs haven't improved THAT much).

Once the work ethic/defensive pressure goes away, well, we could have the most talented list in the AFL, but it just wouldn't matter because harder working plodder teams would still push us around.

Finally, all this comes together and is manifested in the L column, and all of a sudden, a team that thought itself capable of being a threat this year, is now 1 win from their first 4 matches, and finding it difficult to kick a winning score, and now by extension, stop a winning score being kicked against it.

Fun Fact: Richmond were the 3rd best defense in the competition last year, and only lost Tuck and White from the best 22.

I could honestly go on about this for hours on end aye, but the point is, it's not the list. It's the gameplan, and by extension, it's the coach. Here's the best analogy I can come up with:

For anybody who plays no limit texas hold 'em poker, sometimes when you think you have a good hand, but are not completely sure, you put out a feeler bet to see where you're at. If you get raised, or even called on that bet, even if you think you have a decent hand, a good poker player starts to ask questions about the hand they have and if it's good enough to actually win them the pot.

Well, we didn't get called tonight, we got raised all in, and I truly believe Hardwick is not an idiot. He wants his flush draw, or his straight draw to hit, but I think he has to know now that the card he wants isn't coming, and that it's time to fold the hand, and live to fight another day.

In English, what I'm saying is, I think Hardwick would have been thinking that the 2 losses so far were aberrations, and that his "hand" was still solid, but after tonight, he knows for a fact that he's beaten, and if he IS a smart man, he will put steps in place to change things immediately.

If he doesn't, well... he's going to end up losing all his chips very quickly.

 

[theflea]

Our list/talent is NOT the issue.

The issue is the gameplan, pure and simple. All the things that have been mentioned as issues are, stem from a lack of confidence in the gameplan.

This is a long read, but I will prove it to you.

Here's what has happened:



We make the finals last year based on a solid gameplan of link/chain/run off the backline and hitting it deep to Jack, with Vickery playing as a decoy, but this plan comes unstuck in the finals (which is deceptive because in reality it comes unstuck in about 45 minutes of footy, as we dominated the game prior to then, but then the occasion got to us... anyway I digress >.<), so....

Hardwick tries to bring in a new gameplan that he thinks will stand up in finals better, and that makes us even less reliant on Riewoldt being a major goal scorer at all, and makes Vickery our go to guy up forward, which means...

He starts implementing a plan that takes Jack up the field and gives Vickery the keys to a permanent forward line role as a go to guy. The players up the ground bringing the delivery forward are used to kicking it to Jack, who they have confidence in and who has the proverbial runs on the board, but are now instructed to kick it to Vickery instead. Then he instructs Jack to move up the ground and take the best defender with him, so that Vickery (on the 2nd best defender) can dominate and lead the forward line, with Jack playing a role more akin to his cousin Nick. However the problem is...

Vickery is not a #1 forward, and the players up the ground know that when they kick it to Vickery, the odds of him beating his opponent are less than what they are if it was Jack 1 on 1 with somebody. Now, in modern footy, most goals are created from the back-line drive, so if we're in a situation where the players delivering the ball to Vickery know in the back of their minds that there's more of a chance he is going to cough it up than Jack would. This bring in elements of doubt when moving the ball forward quickly, because a turnover means running a shitload back the other way to defend a score, which nobody really likes to do...

Now, as this doubt creeps into our midfielders and defenders about this new style of gameplan, our players begin to make uncharacteristic errors not in line with the talent they have, and they are too worried that their hard work is going to be for nothing because of the ever increasing likelihood of a turnover, and therefore the need to run back twice as hard to defend when they should actually be in scoring positions. This in turn leads to much more "safe" football and working it slowly, which then completely negates any of Vickery's strengths when they finally do get it forward, and makes us very, very predictable. Being so predictable and easy to read causes our players even MORE doubt...

Now this doubt, which as I've said starts leading to some honest mistakes, then starts to affect their confidence levels, and their belief that they are capable of beating other teams. As the confidence drops, so does the work ethic ("Why make that extra gut-running effort if our gameplan means that there's a good chance of it turning over in our 50 and the ball being raced back down for a score against before we can lock it in?"), and when the work ethic goes, the defensive pressure on the ball carrier dies as well. Once you lose that, well... go watch the pressure we were putting on in the Western Bulldogs games last year, and then watch last week's display (hint: the Dogs haven't improved THAT much).

Once the work ethic/defensive pressure goes away, well, we could have the most talented list in the AFL, but it just wouldn't matter because harder working plodder teams would still push us around.

Finally, all this comes together and is manifested in the L column, and all of a sudden, a team that thought itself capable of being a threat this year, is now 1 win from their first 4 matches, and finding it difficult to kick a winning score, and now by extension, stop a winning score being kicked against it.

Fun Fact: Richmond were the 3rd best defense in the competition last year, and only lost Tuck and White from the best 22.

I could honestly go on about this for hours on end aye, but the point is, it's not the list. It's the gameplan, and by extension, it's the coach. Here's the best analogy I can come up with:

For anybody who plays no limit texas hold 'em poker, sometimes when you think you have a good hand, but are not completely sure, you put out a feeler bet to see where you're at. If you get raised, or even called on that bet, even if you think you have a decent hand, a good poker player starts to ask questions about the hand they have and if it's good enough to actually win them the pot.

Well, we didn't get called tonight, we got raised all in, and I truly believe Hardwick is not an idiot. He wants his flush draw, or his straight draw to hit, but I think he has to know now that the card he wants isn't coming, and that it's time to fold the hand, and live to fight another day.

In English, what I'm saying is, I think Hardwick would have been thinking that the 2 losses so far were aberrations, and that his "hand" was still solid, but after tonight, he knows for a fact that he's beaten, and if he IS a smart man, he will put steps in place to change things immediately.

If he doesn't, well... he's going to end up losing all his chips very quickly.

I think we have added essentially 2 more talls at either end and that has contributed to our lack of run, plus any minor changes to the game plan. You do have to adjust the plan every year, but it seems it might have been unfortunately on the back of a few key injuries which have not helped us.

 

[tigs2010]

We didn't over do it with recycled players, last year Grigg was decent when he actually put in the effort, this year he is a ******* gumby soft prick who thinks he can get away playing at 50%

I reckon he was good in 2012. Was pretty average last year and now shit. Imagine if he's still in the team next year.

 

[Danog]

I'll give you Troy Chaplin, he is half the player now Rance is out injured. Recycled players isn't our problem, its the lack of effort and willingness to fight for the footy and for your teammate. It's pathetic

He's either injured or lazy. When he wants to, he can turn on the jets. Most of the time, he looks like he doesn't want to break out of a jog. It's unacceptable from somebody who's supposedly a leader this year.

 

[theflea]

He's either injured or lazy. When he wants to, he can turn on the jets. Most of the time, he looks like he doesn't want to break out of a jog. It's unacceptable from somebody who's supposedly a leader this year.

Really noticed this tonight. Just lazy imo. Needs a rocket.

 

[Straya]

yep, that right Apollo. We do.

 

[Jimbos1]

... Hardwick now has a month worth of footage and data to assess and make the judgement that we need to change (or rather, change BACK) a few things.

And so do 17 other coaches.

 

[ReaperX]

And so do 17 other coaches.

Your point?

Yes, so does every other coach, and some coaches will change things up and bring success, others won't. Some have less to work with in terms of list than others too, and can't do a great deal more than they are already doing (i.e Malthouse and Carlton).

I was just pointing out that this type of loss will make him think harder than say, a loss by 1 or 2 goals, or even a close win, would have.

A win would of been great and I'd have taken it, but it would have also justified his thinking that this game plan works, when it really really doesn't. I'll take a shit 2014 if it means from 2015 onwards he takes his medicine and starts using better tactics, and plays his players in their correct positions, etc etc.

Just like our team, he's a capable coach on his day. But he's having a shit year so far, decision-wise, and that's reflected by our 1-3 start.

 

[nut]

his half time statement that we needed to be cleaner with the ball is a concern..... Its a concern that the players continued to over use the ball until the game was over in the last qtr ..... Its a concern that he didnt change the way we play to suit the conditions.... its a concern that he blamed the player for not adapting to the conditions....

Its a concern that he cant see that our slow ball movement is our major problem and its a concern that he is sticking to a game plan that is centered around scoring from stoppages......

 

[velona]

Another possible explanation is we have too many leaders off the park..
Rance, Lids and Maric are all leaders.
Cotch and Riewoldt are the other two but there are just too many out and the team look lost.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Tigerland]

Another possible explanation is we have too many leaders off the park..
Rance, Lids and Maric are all leaders.
Cotch and Riewoldt are the other two but there are just too many out and the team look lost.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

And another possible explanation (other than the clueless coach) is that the players wearing the jumper fall into 3 categories.

1. Spineless
2. Dumb
3. Hacks

 

[jko'neal]

Lots of confused players for mine. Blokes not knowing what to do, making poor decisions, generally playing with no confidence.

It's more than just a lack of ability, there's a systematic flaw with the way we're playing our footy. I can't see how (this part at least) can be attributed to anyone else but the coach.

Yeah agree, there's seems to be a lot of players looking very confused. Why fix/change something that I wouldn't say was broke in the first place. We didn't win 15 games by luck last year.