Moved Thread Jeremy McGovern vs Alex Rance vs Matthew Scarlett

[PowerfulPies2023]

Who's the best?

 

[PowerfulPies2023]

Unbiased opinions please.

Who had the best career individually and who's best was the best?

 

[carndapies]

I feel like Matthew Scarlett

Matthew Scarlett

Age

46

Ht

192cm

Wt

94kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

14.8

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

5.3

4star

M

5.0

5star

T

1.5

3star

No current season stats available

D

3.8

1star

K

3.2

2star

HB

0.6

1star

M

2.0

3star

T

0.8

3star

was usually matched up on a direct opponent and had the job of shutting down the opposition’s best forward, while still managing to generate attack from the backline. On the other hand, McGovern and Rance often played more of a loose role in defence, where they could read the play and intercept.

They’re all great players, but I think Scarlett’s ability to lock down a key forward and still impact the game offensively gives him the edge.

 

[carndapies]

Scarlett played a lot more like McGovern & Rance later on in his career. I think some forget by the time Geelong became a powerhouse, he was on the downward trajectory.
It's a bit similar to Jacob Weitering right now. Been Carlton's one true pillar for almost a decade without having much success from a team perspective.

I agree that as Scarlett’s career progressed, he became more attacking, but I still feel he maintained a higher level of accountability compared to McGovern and Rance. It’s also worth noting that Scarlett played 84 more games than both Rance and McGovern, which highlights his consistency and longevity at a high level.

This year and last year have probably been Weitering’s best seasons to date — it’s just unfortunate (not really) that many of his teammates have sucked.

 

[Red Black and Blue]

I feel like Matthew Scarlett was usually matched up on a direct opponent and had the job of shutting down the opposition’s best forward, while still managing to generate attack from the backline. On the other hand, McGovern and Rance often played more of a loose role in defence, where they could read the play and intercept.

They’re all great players, but I think Scarlett’s ability to lock down a key forward and still impact the game offensively gives him the edge.

From my memory he was a mostly lateral user who took safe options 95% of the time. Type of player who could have 15 kicks at 100% and have like 50 metres gained. Clearly the weakest of the three in regards to taking the game on but didn't need to with that amazing team. All time great stopper though.

 

[Scotland]

Scarlett like Darren Glass

Darren Glass

Age

44

Ht

192cm

Wt

92kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

10.7

3star

K

4.3

2star

HB

6.4

4star

M

3.6

4star

T

1.7

4star

No current season stats available

D

5.6

2star

K

2.6

1star

HB

3.0

3star

M

1.8

2star

T

1.0

3star

had less defensive responsibility later in his career because someone else came along to take over. By the time Glass retired Eric Mackenzie was our clear #1 key defender and Glass could be second or third tall depending on match ups.

Cats when they came good in the mid 2000s had Milburn, Enright, Mackie, Harley, Rooke playing defensive roles. Plus Egan briefly. Scarlett was the best suited to play on the best key forward another team had. From 2008 they had Harry Taylor, then from 2009/10 they had Tom Lonergan

Tom Lonergan

Age

41

Ht

197cm

Wt

95kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

11.6

3star

K

6.0

2star

HB

5.6

4star

M

4.5

4star

T

1.8

4star

MG

167.3

3star

No current season stats available

D

5.8

2star

K

3.0

1star

HB

2.8

3star

M

2.6

3star

T

0.4

3star

playing back. That's two genuine key defenders (Taylor AA calibre, Lonergan very good) added into the mix which meant they could move magnets around. Massive luxury having a player as good as Scarlett but not having to rely on him to anchor the defence every game, so he can impact with 5 touches or 20.

Unbiased opinion on who is the best of McGovern, Rance or Scarlett? The WC guy obviously...

 

[EagleMan87]

Scarlett > McGovern >>> Rance

 

[WalshistheGOAT]

Personally I've never seen a more impassable defender than prime McGovern. For about 3 years straight it was like he was covering the entire defensive 50 on his own coming in as the 3rd man.

Rance and Scarlett probably be remembered as better footballers but McGovern might be my favorite defender of all time. The beer gut just made his aura even greater.

 

[Rich01]

Definitely the top three defenders of the last two decades. All three could play in the same side. Scarlett at FB, Rance at CHB and McGovern as the third tall intercept back.

As for who is better, they all have their strength and cases for. Scarlett for mine, then Rance, then McGovern.

 

[Timothy Luncheon]

I can't comment on Scarlett as he was before my time (sorry), but I did actually look at the stats between McGovern and Rance a few weeks ago. Stats don't tell everything of course, you'd have people saying the way Rance played was better or looked better, and others the same for McGovern. I still thought it was interesting, and if anyone can find the stats for Scarlett that would be nice (although the game was different back then I guess).


2015 averages Rance vs McGovern:

Player Rating - 13.77 vs 12.10
Coaches votes - 2.32 vs 1.41
Disposals - 17.3 vs 13.5
Eff - 83.2 vs 81.0
In 50 - 0.8 vs 1.2
Reb 50 - 3.7 vs 2.1
Mtrs Gnd - 211.1 vs 208.8
Turnovers - 2.0 vs 2.2
Int Poss - 7.7 vs 8.2
Marks - 5.9 vs 5.5
Contested - 1.1 vs 1.4
Intercept Mks - 2.3 vs 3.4
Def 1v1s - 5.1 vs 3.1
Loss% - 20.4 vs 24.1
Tackles - 3.0 vs 1.2
Spoils - 7.7 vs 4.9
1%s - 8.8 vs 6.2


2016 averages:

Player Rating - 13.17 vs 13.01
CV - 1.85 vs 1.19
Dis - 18.7 vs 15.4
Eff - 85.8 vs 79.9
In 50s - 0.6 vs 1.5
Reb 50s - 3.4 vs 3.5
Mtrs Gnd - 209.3 vs 292.1
TO - 2.6 vs 3.5
Int Poss - 9.3 vs 8.2
Marks - 7.8 vs 6.2
CM - 1.2 vs 2.2
Int Mks - 3.1 vs 3.5
Def 1v1s - 4.7 vs 3.4
Loss% - 23.4 vs 16.2
Tackles - 2.2 vs 1.5
Spoils - 7.7 vs 5.2
1%s - 8.4 vs 6.3

2017 averages:

Player Rating - 14.03 vs 13.88
CV Avg - 2.09 vs 1.50
Dis - 16.0 vs 16.7
Dis. Eff - 79.3 vs 74.6
In 50s - 0.8 vs 2.2
Reb 50s - 3.9 vs 2.6
Mtrs Gnd - 270.6 vs 249.2
TO - 2.4 vs 3.3
Int Poss - 9.4 vs 7.6
Marks - 5.2 vs 8.0
CM - 1.1 vs 2.5
Int Mks - 3.2 vs 3.8
Def 1v1 - 5.6 vs 2.8
Loss% - 14.9 vs 7.5
Tackles - 2.4 vs 1.8
Spoils - 8.4 vs 4.5
1%s - 9.7 vs 5.6

2018 averages:

Player Rating - 12.42 vs 13.36
CV Avg - 1.25 vs 1.21
Dis - 16.0 vs 14.8
Dis Eff - 83.9 vs 79.2
In 50s - 0.6 vs 1.3
Reb 50s - 3.5 vs 3.8
Mtrs Gnd - 219.1 vs 231.1
TO - 2.6 vs 2.5
Int Poss - 9.9 vs 8.6
Marks - 5.5 vs 7.0
CM - 1.0 vs 2.8
Int Mks - 3.2 vs 3.7
Def 1v1 - 5.0 vs 3.7
Loss% - 25.0 vs 27.4
Tackles - 1.5 vs 1.3
Spoils - 7.5 vs 4.7
1%s 9.0 vs 5.8


2024 Gov:

Player Rating - 12.91
CV Avg - 0.90
Dis - 20.6
Dis. Eff - 84.4
In 50s - 1.1
Reb 50s- 7.3
Mtrs Gnd - 462.7
TO - 3.1
Int Poss - 7.9
Marks - 6
CM - 1.4
Int Mks - 3.2
Def 1v1 - 2.1
Loss% - 25.6
Tackles - 1.4
Spoils - 4.4
1%s - 5.3


I personally prefer Rance based on the stats and having watched him play. The 1%'s was the type of stuff you remembered watching him, and his stats all across the board were fantastic (so were McGoverns, sometimes in different areas). McGovern lost less Def 1v1s on percentage in 2016 and 2017, whereas it was the opposite in 2015 and 2018 (although the gap was smaller in those years). However Rance always had more contests in a game and still held up very well. Interestingly it seems like Gov became more attacking last year, while being a little worse defensively. It seems like Gov usually had more i50s but less r50s. Rance more intercept possesions but less contested marks and intercept marks, while having a significant amount of spoils and 1%s, with around a tackle more on average as well. The stats vary throughout the years though. Rance always averaged more coaches votes, but I'm not sure if people value that. Incredible careers both of them, Rance for mine though. Can't comment on Scarlett.

 

[Jim Prideaux]

They are all guns in their own right, however Scarlett played for the most part in a different era for tactics - he was one of the best if not the best then.

McGovern and Rance are more like for like in playing conditions- you’d take either in a heartbeat, but I personally prefer McGovern.

 

[Cdog71]

I think they all played differently.
Rance’s career sortve coincided with the Zone def coming into vogue.
I think McGovern and Scarlett where more natural footballers with McGovern one of the best Marks I’ve ever seen and that’s predicting and timing as well as the hands, Rance was more athletic and could cover more ground than the other two to impact more moments and Scarlett was just hard to beat as well as looking to make the play.
If I had to pick to make Def back 6 and I’m biased.

Rance
Scarlett
McGovern

 

[Aristotle Pickett the3rd]

Rance by far

 

[stallon]

Mcgovern had teams adjusting their entire gameplan just to avoid him, and putting taggers on him.
Scarlett obviously the best pure stopper of the lot.
Rance is a clear 3rd here for me.

Im slightly biased but id take Gov number 1 comfortably if I was building a backline, it almost doesnt matter who your other tall defender is when paired with Gov, as Gov controls the air over the entire backline regardless.
Scarlett you do need to put some thought into it, a stopper will generally have less impact than someone like Gov.

Also of note Gov played over 15 games in a season 6 times. One was his 2nd season where he made the AA squad, the rest were AA seasons where he wouldve been the first KPD selected. If not for injury ruining the prime years of his career(ages 27-31) its not unlikely he would have at least 8 AAs, maybe 9 even.

 

[Mr Meow]

Mcgovern had teams adjusting their entire gameplan just to avoid him, and putting taggers on him.
Scarlett obviously the best pure stopper of the lot.
Rance is a clear 3rd here for me.

Im slightly biased but id take Gov number 1 comfortably if I was building a backline, it almost doesnt matter who your other tall defender is when paired with Gov, as Gov controls the air over the entire backline regardless.
Scarlett you do need to put some thought into it, a stopper will generally have less impact than someone like Gov.

Also of note Gov played over 15 games in a season 6 times. One was his 2nd season where he made the AA squad, the rest were AA seasons where he wouldve been the first KPD selected. If not for injury ruining the prime years of his career(ages 27-31) its not unlikely he would have at least 8 AAs, maybe 9 even.

I think you're underselling what Scarlett did besides simply making his opponent a non-factor.

He averaged around 15 disposals per game in a lower disposal era.

His ball use was as good as a modern day classy midfielder. The 2005-2011 period he and Enright were Geelong's chief creators from defence following turnovers. As soon as the ball hit the deck, he was basically a rebounding back flanker.

I really rate the other two highly by the way. It's just your summation of Scarlett misses the mark.

 

[WeaponX]

I liked all 3 but leaned towards McGovern because he was way closer to a complete defender than the other 2. Rance second because he is a WA boy and Scarlett would of gone higher except he played for the filth that is Geelong.

 

[Cyclops]

Pretty surprised by the poll to be honest.
McGovern was arguably one of the best defenders of his generation along with a number of others in Lake, Rance and Glass. McPharlin another great defender but a class below.

Scarlett is in the same conversation as Silvagni and perhaps the best full back ever. Much more than just a stopper, he was Geelong's play-maker from the defensive half of the ground.
There were times when the opposition's best forwards would sacrifice their own game just to try and nullify Scarlett's influence. Draw him away from disrupting the play. One-on-one prime Scarlett, I can't think of anyone better.

I dislike Scarlett because he seemed like a mean ****, but even with that bias for me he's undeniably the fb of the century so far. Could stop 1v1, could zone off, and create.

Interesting to compare Silvagni, who was more physically freakish (and Scarlett was immensely strong and atheletic for his size), but I rate Scarlett higher as a defender. Scarletts disposal under pressure was annoyingly good on top of the other attributes. It didn't always look stylish, but you can't take points away for looks.

McGovern I haven't seen enough of but has stitched us up a few times and happy to be told.

Very good call on Lake, like Heath Shaw he'd have a brain fade about once a game but even allowing for that he was approaching Glen Jacovich status with his immense strength and marking. Saw a bit of him and allowing for my ignorance about McGovern I'd have Lake #2.

Rance I am not fit to judge, always seemed to have a shocker vs the Pies. Serious footy people have explained to me I'm wrong when I say he is over rated, apparently he was an athletic freak (like Silvagni), a good stopper and a great zone-off defender. I just never saw it, I mostly remember him coughing up 6 goal in a half in the 2018 PF.

 

[Lunchtime]

I can't split them, and thats honest too.

The 3 best defenders equally that i have seen since 2000 (no particular order) are Rance, Scarlett and McGovern. All equal in my opinion. Champion players.

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

The poll has it right

Scarlett
McGovern
Rance

 

[Elmer_Hauser]

I liked all 3 but leaned towards McGovern because he was way closer to a complete defender than the other 2. Rance second because he is a WA boy and Scarlett would of gone higher except he played for the filth that is Geelong.

Well with that impartial testimony, I'm sold