Lillee, McGrath..... Cummins ?

[samFFC]

The all-time attack I would say has to be picked from:

Warne
Lillee
Steyn
McGrath
Muralitharan
Cummins
Akram
Ambrose
Marshall

Pretty hard to choose! I personally would have both Shane and Murali as a starting point (you can’t argue with the wicket totals) and choose a bowling all-rounder

Bumrah?

 

[The_Eagles]

Bumrah?

Yeah, he will be in that group, say after 50 tests

 

[revo333]

Warne


McGrath......Lillee..................................................Cummins...Johnson.........Lee

Starc has proved himself more reliable than Johnson and Lee.

 

[revo333]

What do we make of his superior strike rate to all the others? Second is starc? is this a reflection of the bigbash t20 stuff that has become more prominent and perhaps made it easier to take wickets? if so how does that change the context of cummins performance ?

The game moves along quicker for sure.

It's a stat I've never really cared about anyway.

 

[cricketnut14]

not much in it , now that lillee and cummins have basically played the same amount of tests.

lillee did play another 18 unofficial tests with 90+ wickets @ sub 24.

with another 28 tests in the next 2 and a bit years - all going well, cummins can reach 400 on the tour to england in 2027.

it's still lillee, mcgrath and cummins as my quicks in my first XI of the last 50 years.

 

[Sea fog]

LIllee Rest of the World series is not counted either. He took 8/29 in a Perth against a batting line-up superior to many of them around in the decades since. Regardless of figures, Lillee had a capacity to rise to the occasion and change and adapt with different bowling styles to the different circumstances. He also had charisma in spades. I always found McGrath metronomic. His figures are superb but at times he almost bored batsmen out with his dry lines.

 

[Walt Kowalski]

If you are selecting from the modern (post WSC) era and want three quicks, he's absolutely in the three with Lillee and McGrath. No question imo.

If we go back further in history then we can consider Lindwall, Davidson and Miller as contenders, and Cummins well and truly belongs in the conversation.

 

[cricketnut14]

Cummin's has now played 70 tests like Lillee.

 

[AlwaysHawks15]

LIllee Rest of the World series is not counted either. He took 8/29 in a Perth against a batting line-up superior to many of them around in the decades since. Regardless of figures, Lillee had a capacity to rise to the occasion and change and adapt with different bowling styles to the different circumstances. He also had charisma in spades. I always found McGrath metronomic. His figures are superb but at times he almost bored batsmen out with his dry lines.

Isn't that the point though?, drawing the batsman into a false shot because they are frustrated by the consistent line your bowling is exactly what a great fast bowler does. Pretty odd reason to prefer somebody over another. Id have McGrath bowling for my life over anybody else ever because he was so trustworthy.

 

[Cmarsh]

Cummin's has now played 70 tests like Lillee.


View attachment 2362142

Interesting that Cummins has actually bowled substatially less balls then Lillie despite the same number of tests. Probably partially accounted for by Cummins having a constantly good and reliable spinner in Nathan Lyon so the quicks don't have to bowl as much. Don't think in Lillie's playing days it was the same.

 

[cricketnut14]

Interesting that Cummins has actually bowled substatially less balls then Lillie despite the same number of tests. Probably partially accounted for by Cummins having a constantly good and reliable spinner in Nathan Lyon so the quicks don't have to bowl as much. Don't think in Lillie's playing days it was the same.

hard to compare previous era's


but other reasons could be:

• more games went the distance back in the day
• cummins s/r lower because of t20 etc
• perhaps there was more of a reliance on lillee (although he did have support from the likes of thomson, walker, pascoe,alderman)

-cummins playing with a steady quartet of champions and the bowling is spread more evenly
-captain cummins reluctancy to bowl himself at times

interesting to note that lillee averaged 44 overs per game to cummins 34 and the reason to the 48 wicket difference.

 

[TBellicious]

I'm so on board with this I actually don't think it's arguable.

Statistically there is no doubt he is (at least) our third greatest seamer.

Add in his success as captain and his batting, it's undeniable he is in our greatest ever XI.

 

[revo333]

Interesting that Cummins has actually bowled substatially less balls then Lillie despite the same number of tests. Probably partially accounted for by Cummins having a constantly good and reliable spinner in Nathan Lyon so the quicks don't have to bowl as much. Don't think in Lillie's playing days it was the same.

I don't think managing work loads were really considered back in those days.

Bowlers probably bowled longer spells.

Did they have rest days when Lillie played? If so that would have helped bowlers to bowl more overs.

 

[DaRick]

LIllee Rest of the World series is not counted either. He took 8/29 in a Perth against a batting line-up superior to many of them around in the decades since. Regardless of figures, Lillee had a capacity to rise to the occasion and change and adapt with different bowling styles to the different circumstances. He also had charisma in spades. I always found McGrath metronomic. His figures are superb but at times he almost bored batsmen out with his dry lines.

This describes someone like Stuart Clark or Josh Hazlewood better.

Very good, very accurate wicket-to-wicket bowlers who were nonetheless limited in unfavourable conditions (Hazlewood a bit better because he can sometimes reverse the ball).

McGrath had a lot more variety than people remember. The only thing I don't remember him bowling was the inswinger.

He could reverse and cut the ball (hence why he was effective on the subcontinent), he used the outswinger towards the end of his career, he had a nasty yorker, a good slower ball and a deceptively effective bouncer.

I don't think any opposition consistently got the better of him, and he was central to our victory in the 1st Test of that defining 1995 series against WI.

I don't have a problem with people ranking Lillee higher*, and he has flair and charisma that McGrath could only dream of, but there's a reason why McGrath has the record he does, especially since conditions in the 2000s were relatively friendly to batsmen.

*I personally think they're very close, but I rank Lillee fractionally behind. Lillee's 8/29 against the ROW in 1972 is offset by McGrath's 2 8-fers; Lillee's time in WSC is offset by McGrath having to bowl in the 2000s, especially since the earliest WSC matches were not as intense as the later ones. But in the end it's like ranking Hendrix vs Clapton - they're both among the best of the best in their field.

Interesting that Cummins has actually bowled substatially less balls then Lillie despite the same number of tests. Probably partially accounted for by Cummins having a constantly good and reliable spinner in Nathan Lyon so the quicks don't have to bowl as much. Don't think in Lillie's playing days it was the same.

Mallett and Yardley were useful at worst.

I don't think managing work loads were really considered back in those days.

Bowlers probably bowled longer spells.

Did they have rest days when Lillie played? If so that would have helped bowlers to bowl more overs.

They were more common, but I think the crucial difference was not having as much cricket overall. ODs were nascent; T20s obviously weren't a thing.

 

[reubski23]

I'm so on board with this I actually don't think it's arguable.

Statistically there is no doubt he is (at least) our third greatest seamer.

Add in his success as captain and his batting, it's undeniable he is in our greatest ever XI.

Yep when this thread was created years ago - I was really happy because I found out that others saw the all time greatness that I did, now it’s come
To fruition it’s just a source of proud that I was part of a group who called it early.

I hope in the future people don’t sprout some bull shit that he had great support around him so it impacts his legacy.

I remember when people used to say McGrath had better legacy/stats because he bowled with Warne lol. Warne is my favourite cricket player of all time - but I reckon McGrath helped Warne more rather than vice versa. Cummins has good support no doubt but he has put the team on his back more than any bowler I’ve seen in my years of watching cricket, except Warne and McGrath.

 

[reubski23]

This describes someone like Stuart Clark or Josh Hazlewood better.

Very good, very accurate wicket-to-wicket bowlers who were nonetheless limited in unfavourable conditions (Hazlewood a bit better because he can sometimes reverse the ball).

McGrath had a lot more variety than people remember. The only thing I don't remember him bowling was the inswinger.

He could reverse and cut the ball (hence why he was effective on the subcontinent), he used the outswinger towards the end of his career, he had a nasty yorker, a good slower ball and a deceptively effective bouncer.

I don't think any opposition consistently got the better of him, and he was central to our victory in the 1st Test of that defining 1995 series against WI.

I don't have a problem with people ranking Lillee higher*, and he has flair and charisma that McGrath could only dream of, but there's a reason why McGrath has the record he does, especially since conditions in the 2000s were relatively friendly to batsmen.

*I personally think they're very close, but I rank Lillee fractionally behind. Lillee's 8/29 against the ROW in 1972 is offset by McGrath's 2 8-fers; Lillee's time in WSC is offset by McGrath having to bowl in the 2000s, especially since the earliest WSC matches were not as intense as the later ones. But in the end it's like ranking Hendrix vs Clapton - they're both among the best of the best in their field.



Mallett and Yardley were useful at worst.



They were more common, but I think the crucial difference was not having as much cricket overall. ODs were nascent; T20s obviously weren't a thing.

1000% - that metronomic description of McGrath is so lazy. He had a great record in every country he visited, dominated in ODIs and Tests. He had every trick in the book, without relying too much on swing, I think because the last 7 years of his career he bowled 125-135km it’s added to the myth that all he had was great consistency

 

[DaRick]

1000% - that metronomic description of McGrath is so lazy. He had a great record in every country he visited, dominated in ODIs and Tests. He had every trick in the book, without relying too much on swing, I think because the last 7 years of his career he bowled 125-135km it’s added to the myth that all he had was great consistency

He was always around 130 km/h in the second half of his career, even in his last series.

Stuart Clark could get around to 125 km/h, and he could look pretty unthreatening on flat decks as a result.

 

[reubski23]

He was always around 130 km/h in the second half of his career, even in his last series.

Stuart Clark could get around to 125 km/h, and he could look pretty unthreatening on flat decks as a result.

To be clear agree with all your posts 100%. But mentioning Stuart Clark in the same sentence as McGrath is like mentioning Blake Bortles in the same sentence as Tommy Brady!

 

[DaRick]

To be clear agree with all your posts 100%. But mentioning Stuart Clark in the same sentence as McGrath is like mentioning Blake Bortles in the same sentence as Tommy Brady!

Yeah, no sane person would equate them in terms of quality, but their style is broadly similar.

 

[the_interloper]

Yeah, no sane person would equate them in terms of quality, but their style is broadly similar.

Yep for sure.

He was always around 130 km/h in the second half of his career, even in his last series.

Stuart Clark could get around to 125 km/h, and he could look pretty unthreatening on flat decks as a result.

Thought he was a bit sharper than that but fair enough. I mean he and McGrath were similar but Pidge could get wickets on flat decks as well for some reason.

 

[DaRick]

Yep for sure.



Thought he was a bit sharper than that but fair enough. I mean he and McGrath were similar but Pidge could get wickets on flat decks as well for some reason.

Having just watched Stuart Clark's Test debut in SA, he could initially get above 135 km/h.

But he definitely slowed down as time went on.

Clark had nothing like McGrath's variety, and didn't get as much bounce either.

 

[the_interloper]

Having just watched Stuart Clark's Test debut in SA, he could initially get above 135 km/h.

But he definitely slowed down as time went on.

Clark had nothing like McGrath's variety, and didn't get as much bounce either.

Yeah it wasn't just the bounce McGrath got but his ability to get it up near their head from a good length on occasion. He sconed a few and it was mainly because of this not just raw pace.

I remember KP charging McGrath in a one dayer and he saw him coming, dropped it a little shorter and hit the helmet, very clever bowler.

 

[reubski23]

Yeah it wasn't just the bounce McGrath got but his ability to get it up near their head from a good length on occasion. He sconed a few and it was mainly because of this not just raw pace.

I remember KP charging McGrath in a one dayer and he saw him coming, dropped it a little shorter and hit the helmet, very clever bowler.

Maybe we are talking about different things but the KP one I remember was when he got him in the ribs - by doing exactly that - KP walked him - McGrath dropped it shorter and shaper on pace - broke Kp’s ribs and kp missed the rest of the series . It was mcgrath’s last odi series at home before the World Cup and I don’t think I’ve ever seen McGrath look more pleased with himself lol

 

[Andrew Mc]

Maybe we are talking about different things but the KP one I remember was when he got him in the ribs - by doing exactly that - KP walked him - McGrath dropped it shorter and shaper on pace - broke Kp’s ribs and kp missed the rest of the series . It was mcgrath’s last odi series at home before the World Cup and I don’t think I’ve ever seen McGrath look more pleased with himself lol

Was at the MCG in 2007. Saw it in the flesh.