Limit Holdem Thread

[The Passenger]

well we have an omaha and a stud one going so we might as well have a limit holdem.

also cause i know pax plays mainly limit holdem so can hopefully get some good advice off him.

I had my first session in a little while tonight and went good - 180 hands over 2 hours for a profit of $11.00 at $0.25/0.50.

but **** can limit holdem put you on life tilt with some of the crap hands people play with, raise with and how lightly they'll call down with. Especially at the lower limits.

The irony of it is that people play limit holdem and play more hands because they think it's not going to cost much to keep going. but this should be more your attitute in no limit where your implied odds are what make suited connected, and suited 1-gappers profitable hands.

for instance a lot of people will play T8o in limit because it's cheap but they are so often throwing away money because they won't hit the board hard enough and be forced to fold, or they'll pay off a better ten or an overpair when they hit their ten. all the while when they finally hit their miracle T8x or 79J flop they won't get paid off near enough to justify playing the hand in the first place.

meanwhile in no limit holdem, even though it's still a junk hand, you can at least justify that if you can see the flop cheaply there a chance you'll stack someone off when you hit your miracle flop.

i'm thinking limit holdem will suit me more than no limit because, a bit like stud, it's a very mathematical game which is my strong point. but if you can't escape the tilt factor then it's definetaly not the game for you. fortunately i'm pretty good at avoiding tilt, although there was a few times tonight i was staring at my screen in disbelief.

this was my biggest hand of the night:

Full Tilt Poker Game #10902159829: Table Elvis (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - Limit Holdem - 7:02:34 ET - 2009/03/01

Seat 1: WienerRoman ($14.15)
Seat 2: easy touch 21 ($32.15)
Seat 3: yuran4 ($7.30)
Seat 4: Maysha ($5)
Seat 5: shamelessdave ($12.90)
Seat 6: elpimm ($8.15)

yuran4 posts the small blind of $0.10
Maysha has 5 seconds left to act
Maysha posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #2

*** HOLE CARDS ***

Dealt to shamelessdave [5h 5s]
shamelessdave has 15 seconds left to act
shamelessdave: lol a3 elpimm raised the hand before with A3
shamelessdave calls $0.25
elpimm folds
WienerRoman calls $0.25
easy touch 21 folds
yuran4 folds
Maysha checks

*** FLOP *** [3d Td 5d]

bitter sweet flop. mid-set on a one-toned flop.... i raised because i knew any diamond is calling so i wanted to charge him. if one of them had a made flush i had outs and i knew they'd pay me off.

Maysha bets $0.25
shamelessdave raises to $0.50
WienerRoman raises to $0.75
Maysha raises to $1
shamelessdave calls $0.50
WienerRoman calls $0.25

*** TURN *** [3d Td 5d] [3s]

beautiful card. hands plays itself from here really. raise, raise, raise...

Maysha bets $0.50
shamelessdave raises to $1
WienerRoman calls $1
Maysha raises to $1.50
shamelessdave raises to $2
WienerRoman calls $1
Maysha calls $0.50

*** RIVER *** [3d Td 5d 3s] [Ks]

Maysha bets $0.50
shamelessdave raises to $1
WienerRoman raises to $1.50
Maysha raises to $1.75, and is all in
shamelessdave calls $0.75
WienerRoman calls $0.25

*** SHOW DOWN ***

Maysha shows [9d Qd] a flush, Queen high
shamelessdave shows [5h 5s] a full house, Fives full of Threes
WienerRoman mucks
shamelessdave wins the pot ($14.60) with a full house, Fives full of Threes
Maysha is sitting out

*** SUMMARY ***

Total pot $15.10 | Rake $0.50
Board: [3d Td 5d 3s Ks]
Seat 1: WienerRoman mucked [Qh Qc] - two pair, Queens and Threes
Seat 2: easy touch 21 (button) didnt bet (folded)
Seat 3: yuran4 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: Maysha (big blind) showed [9d Qd] and lost with a flush, Queen high
Seat 5: shamelessdave showed [5h 5s] and won ($14.60) with a full house, Fives full of Threes
Seat 6: elpimm didnt bet (folded)

Pax has always said how high the variance factor in limit holdem is and i saw it for real last night. i bought into 2-tables for $12.50 each and my money on the table swung all over the shop. swing between $20-$30 quite violently for the first half, then dropped to $15, then quickly steadily shot up to around $40.... I left when it was pretty close to it's highest mark.

in saying that if you break up the session into the two tables i played one table was a fairly steady movement upwards (profit $16.55) whilst the other was a steady but less steep movement downwards (loss $5.70)

Got to admit though i ran good with the cards tonight. from 186 hands i had: AA x 1, AK x 3, AQ x 2, AJ x 8!!!!, KK x 2, QQ x 2, QJ x 3, 99 x 4, 22-88 x 9.... somewhat freakishly in one 12 hand period on the same table i had pockets 5 times (this was on the run-bad table. didn't really get paid off on the big pockets and the mid-pockets cost me money)

 

[paxmaniac]

Lol@ Wiener raising the river with QQ after capped flop and turn.

I never ever open limp in 6max limit. Small pairs, suited connectors, suited aces - raise them all. The reason is that you will almost never get enough players to the flop to make these hands worthwhile for implied value alone - sets, flushes etc. You need to make more out of them, which means playing them aggressively and taking down some pots with Cbets. Raising also has a chance to buy you the button, and puts pressure on the blinds. Passivity preflop can work, but the conventional view is that aggression is best.

 

[The Passenger]

yeah im the same in no limit holdem - i never open limp. i wasn't sure if that would work so well in low limit fixed holdem because of the fact people fold so much less than they will in no limit.

just out of interest pax if your in the blinds and everyone has limped in and your holding pocket aces, would the optimal play still be to raise?? in NL obviously you'd just raise the crap out if it, but in fixed limit your not going to get anyone to fold.

i know it's considered good play to get money into the pot while your in front, but chances are when 6 people see the flop your aces won't be good by the end. particularly when you consider there is a pretty strong chance 2 of the guys have an ace and your unlikely to improve to a set and in a 6-way pot 1-pair will win very rarely.....

i'm just running a few odds here and just say a possible scenario is your holding AA in the BB and everyone limps. in a 6-way pot your generally around 35%-45% to win. those odds in a 6-way pot are fantastic so you'd think raise and charge them and re-raise on just about any flop and hope to think the field to heads up or 3-way on the turn....

i dunno, it's just hard to get my head around seeing flops 5 and 6 way as i did a few times last night.

 

[Crosby87]

I used to play a lot of shorthanded and head up limit when I first started playing for cash, but I absolutely hate it now. Yet I always seem to find myself playing it now and then for some insane reason.

 

[The Passenger]

I used to play a lot of shorthanded and head up limit when I first started playing for cash, but I absolutely hate it now. Yet I always seem to find myself playing it now and then for some insane reason.

hate it?? variance factor??

 

[paxmaniac]

yeah im the same in no limit holdem - i never open limp. i wasn't sure if that would work so well in low limit fixed holdem because of the fact people fold so much less than they will in no limit.

It is still very important to be aggressive IMO. You still can't afford to let people see cheap flops with junky hands.

just out of interest pax if your in the blinds and everyone has limped in and your holding pocket aces, would the optimal play still be to raise?? in NL obviously you'd just raise the crap out if it, but in fixed limit your not going to get anyone to fold.

God yes. Raise, reraise and cap. It's not about driving players out, it's about building the pot when you have a massive equity advantage. If everybody has limped, then it only costs you one small bet to put 6 small bets in the pot. It's never that cheap on the flop and turn, since a few players will always fold.

i know it's considered good play to get money into the pot while your in front, but chances are when 6 people see the flop your aces won't be good by the end. particularly when you consider there is a pretty strong chance 2 of the guys have an ace and your unlikely to improve to a set and in a 6-way pot 1-pair will win very rarely.....

This is absolutely the wrong way to view it. If you are winning the pot more than 1/6 of the time, you should make it bigger.

By the way, if you have five limpers on the BB you should probably be raising any pocket pair and any suited connectors simply because you have better than 1/6 pot equity shooting for sets and straights and flushes. Building the pot PF with suited connectors also enables you to chase draws correctly postflop. Obv this applies much more in full ring where 6 way limped pots are more common.

i dunno, it's just hard to get my head around seeing flops 5 and 6 way as i did a few times last night.

Yeah, those are crazy games. Obviously your aces won't win unimproved that often when 6 players see a flop. If the flop comes broadway or single suited, and there's a bet and a raise on the flop there's a fair chance you're beaten.

 

[The Passenger]

cheers man, have you been playing much of it lately??

i'm trying to get my brother and mates to mix up our thursday night game and play something else - limit holdem, stud, omaha. anything. i love playing NLHE but i think variety is the spice of life and with all the variation poker offers you it's best to not just get stuck playing NLHE.

 

[paxmaniac]

I'm actually making a transition to NL, because the thin margins and high variance of Limit was giving me the yips. But I still play when there's a fishy table.