News Lloyd slams Buckley

[Adz]

The form of Cloke and Dawes has increasingly been cited as a key factor in why the Magpies' premiership campaign is stuttering. Retired Essendon champion Matthew Lloyd subscribes to that theory, criticising first-year coach Nathan Buckley for his refusal to trial an alternative forward-line structure well before the finals.​

''I think Buckley has to take some of the blame here. I think he's let this go on for far too long,'' he told The Sunday Footy Show. ''He's gone with the structure, he's probably pretty set in his ways … and he's backed them in. He probably can't change things now because he's gone 21 [matches] with the same set-up.''​

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/lloyd-slams-buckley-for-pies-forward-line-woes-20120826-24uin.html#ixzz24fBt3iwg​

Lloyd forward coach 2013. Make it happen. And get rid of Eade "I'm in AWE of NicNat" while we're at it.​

 

[mattys123]

Pretty honest from Llyod there, but also exactly what most of us are thinking, if we continue with Cloke and Dawes as our two key forwards then it's bring on 2013 because 2012 will be a bust.

I am personally disappointed that neither Ceglar or Witts were given at least one game by now to at least see if they could take that next step, but realistically due to injuries to players like Didak, Krakouer and Macaffer and the fact the others are too young/inexperienced we haven't had a lot of choice up forward really.

Fair enough from the velvet sledgehammer there really.

 

[Adz]

Obviously it's easy to criticise from the outside but generally Lloyd is pretty spot on and I really appreciate him as a media figure (HATED him when he played).

 

[TradeDraft]

Well that been Any Coach.

Didn't the Sun have Bucks as the Best Coach in the AFL?

I agree Matty I dissapointed that Ceglar and Witts have just Stayed in the VFL all Season

 

[jerry springer]

yep fair points from lloyd

Both players should have been dropped at some time over the past few weeks.

 

[forwardflanker]

Think Loyd is a pretty good commentator but that said I think he's wrong on this. If you go into a finals series without a tall forward line then you really are making up the numbers imo. They need to change things up but I think we need to go about it the other way, which is by making sure that Dawes and Cloke plays 100% in the forward and 0% in the ruck. If that means getting one of the defenders to ruck, doing something tricky like no established ruck with a 3rd man up, or bringing in Witts or Ceglar then so be it. But Dawes can't play in the ruck imo, he needs 100% in the forward line.

Other thing to bear in mind is how poorly we are going in terms of forward 50 entries. I've been thinking for quite some time that out 'much vaunted' midfield deserves some criticism and this supports that.

 

[Pera]

Pretty spot on, but there is no other option with out side. We go small, yeah great. But it's the way we move the ball forward that would render that gameplan as unsuccessful as the current one. We would just slam the ball on Blair and Didak's head all day long and we'd continue to have the same result.

 

[Ant85]

I think it's more than just Cloke and Dawes.

Our midfield was annihilated by West Coast, our defense has gone from the best in the league to middle of the road.

Is it all a result of Bucks?

We used to back our players to win the hardball, one-on-one contests. We seem to be getting pushed off too easy, and losing too many battles we'd normally win.

We've had injuries out of our ass which means we've never really had a settled side, and I guess that shows. The confidence is shot.

I'm also questioning the hunger of the team to be the best again, which is definitely within our ability. And that's the most disappointing part.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Wow - there have been some great responses to Lloyd's opinion here. Outstanding work, Pies fans.

I was expecting a lot of rubbish like 'Piss off Lloyd - your club is a joke, blah blah' or 'This is just another example of the media having it in for Collingwood and trying to do anything to sell a story'.

I agree with Lloyd, I would have liked to have seen something done about Dawes' form earlier.

 

[danielnajdek]

Never hear him bagging Hird about Essendon.

Just saying...

 

[migz]

I have a lot of respect for Lloyd and I think he's usually open minded with his opinions. I agree with him and I think one of the reasons we are shot is because the midfield has lost confidence in the forward line hence some of the front running as they are trying to get in to positions to be able score themselves.

The one thing that's bothering me the most is the fact that we don't seem to have multiple goal scorers like we had earlier during the year when we won 10 in a row. Even back then our fwd line wasn't functioning well yet we were unpredictable.

Ever since the mid season break something has gone wrong and I think its structural. Too many players committing to each contest so as soon as the opposition clears it we are caught out stuck at the contest and our defence is all caught out one on one. We concede too many inside 50s for our defenders to cope..

Something definitely needs to change and I reckon once our midfield starts defending better rather than racking up pointless possessions we might be able to push more players up the ground to help our fwd line rather than relying solely on Cloke and Dawes...

 

[Mobbsy]

I agree with the above. Sometimes it looks like the under 8s, with everyone chasing the ball.
At times we see 3 Pies v 1 opposition player going for mark, ball spills...2 opp players clear it...

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Pretty spot on, but there is no other option with out side. We go small, yeah great. But it's the way we move the ball forward that would render that gameplan as unsuccessful as the current one. We would just slam the ball on Blair and Didak's head all day long and we'd continue to have the same result.

So untrue it's not funny.

Would like to assign you some homework.

Watch the North AND West Coast games again, and actually take notice of the forward 50 entries. Explain to me why the smaller forwards almost all received perfectly good passes on the lead, yet Cloke and Dawes didn't. Is every Collingwood supporter on BigFooty suggesting that our midfield is purposely passing like shit to Cloke and Dawes?

 

[76woodenspooners]

Lloyd forward coach 2013. Make it happen ...

Back in the days when Cloke had the goal kicking yips (well, perhaps he's still got them, we've just come to terms with it) Lloyd offered to come down to Collingwood to fix it. Shame we didn't take him up on the offer, although Collingwood quite reasonably doesn't take seriously offers that have been made through the media.

I think Lloyd could be good for us, particularly if we retain the tall forward line approach. And he could fix Cloke's goal kicking. (even I could fix Cloke's golkicking: taking his run up with a straight spine would be a good start).

And get rid of Eade "I'm in AWE of NicNat" while we're at it.

I'm very surprised the way the Eade appointment has worked out. I expected it to be a lot more strategic (ie: not necessarily spending gameday in the coaches box). He just seems to be like deputy senior coach to me. I thought the role would be so much more than that.

I think it's more than just Cloke and Dawes.

Agree, but Lloyd was commenting on the forward line, and they share some of the responsibility.

Is it all a result of Bucks?

Bucks is the man in the hot seat and he is responsible for tactics and strategy, player motivation, team cohesion etc. there have been a few things going on that he's not responsible for - injuries, player contracts and maybe fitness levels.

We've had injuries out of our arse which means we've never really had a settled side, and I guess that shows. The confidence is shot.

I thought we'd actually had a good run with injuries lately? Apart from Pendles who missed a handful games around round 13, and the "general soreness" bug, has there been anything else of note? I don't think our injuries in the second half of the season have been worse than any other year. If the side has been unsettled it's been more due to form or resting, rather than injury.

I'm also questioning the hunger of the team to be the best again, which is definitely within our ability. And that's the most disappointing part.

Well, we saw that hunger in the Swans game, which was only a few rounds ago. Maybe the players are naturally conserving themselves for the finals? (doubt it myself, something doesn't look right)

 

[Stripes B and W]

Like most, I like Lloyd as a commentator, surprised he isnt on 7 or Fox. His comments on Buckley are very hard to argue with, and hardly new to this board. To say that he has not tried alternative forward set ups, however, is not really accurate. Lloyd was unable to suggest alternatives
Sure he has not dropped Dawes,but, we have played Paine for 5 games, Tarrant has spent a deal of time forward, even Reid started forward against the WB's. Ball's injury has meant a mid has to spend more time away from F50.
Krak and Caff would have certainly played forward, in totally different rolls.
Buckley has played Elliot for many games as a small marking forward, and Swan has spent time forward many times through the year. None of the options i have mentioned have succeced as a forward to any extent. Those that have won the ball have shown no ability to put it through the goals!!!

The only other real option, this board has been vocal in suggesting it, is Ceglar.
I wonder how many times Lloyd has seen him play? What were Lloyds alternatives?

 

[Kirby]

I don't think Lloyd really "slammed" bucks at all.

 

[Stripes B and W]

Kirby, yes, dramatic and imaginative sub editing...

 

[ipswichpies]

I think LLoyd is a very good at analysis and I would take quite a bit of notice of what he say,s tbh,I thought it has been a mistake to at least not give Ceglar a run and to be honest I probably would still give him a chance against Essendon I would also like to See Paine given a run as well.

We have really stagnated over the past month or so and we need a pretty big catalyst to turn our season around now I would drop Dawes I would also force Cloke into 2nd ruck and if he does not accept that then Drop him as well.

I would agree with LLoyd on this issue and I think Buck,s should have changed it up before now and I think he has been too loyal to both Cloke and Dawes and they have give him nothing in return but even at this late in the season I would still change it they have both had more than enough time to turn it around.

Ps I would not mind Lloyd at Collingwood helping with the forwards and as kicking coach it would be money well spent IMO.

 

[jathanas]

Loyd called it as he saw it.

Yes it is too late now to experiment with our tall timbers in the forward line, and too right we should've cut our losses with the Dawes role earlier in the season. Dawes is devoid of confidence and is unable to execute his 2012 responsibilities to an acceptable level.

Having said that the team has been able to cover those deficiencies earlier in the season which gave us the luxury of waiting to see if they hit form.

The theory is that you need your big guns firing in September, ours are currently stuttering along. Our 1990 forward line was small, and BT did not feature. Should we learn from history?

 

[noideaatall]

The form of Cloke and Dawes has increasingly been cited as a key factor in why the Magpies' premiership campaign is stuttering. Retired Essendon champion Matthew Lloyd subscribes to that theory, criticising first-year coach Nathan Buckley for his refusal to trial an alternative forward-line structure well before the finals.​

''I think Buckley has to take some of the blame here. I think he's let this go on for far too long,'' he told The Sunday Footy Show. ''He's gone with the structure, he's probably pretty set in his ways … and he's backed them in. He probably can't change things now because he's gone 21 [matches] with the same set-up.''​

​

​

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/lloyd-slams-buckley-for-pies-forward-line-woes-20120826-24uin.html#ixzz24fBt3iwg​

Lloyd forward coach 2013. Make it happen. And get rid of Eade "I'm in AWE of NicNat" while we're at it.​

Seems to be some truth in this .... but I would be interested in Lloyd or anyone else to actually name/describe the alternative structure.

A whole heap of players (smalls & talls) have had a go in the forward line. Given we have struggled for depth in the back line and middle most of the season I don't think Bucks can be blamed for alternatives that don't exist. Clearly the focus (in terms of alternative structure) is on the role of cloke and dawes, not other forward line players.

Cloke: only alternative would have been to play him more of a CHF role than a FF role this season. Didn't work well early in the season tho, when cloke would mark on the wing and then wheel around to have no one to kick to. Didn't work against WCE on Sat - we just don't get the forward 50 penetration to make a small forward line work for us. Dropping him, play him at FB or 2nd ruck are just rubbish ideas. We simply do not have a player that would have done a better job than cloke up forward, poor as his form is now.

Dawes: 2nd ruck/forward. Not much chop as 2nd ruck but who else could have filled this role? Jolly plus Wood has never worked. Gault/Ceglar/Witts certainly didn't appear alternatives early in the year. Bad has Dawes form is, I do not believe dropping Dawes for one of these would have impacted on our fortunes: the only realistic alternative would have been to play one of these guys plus dawes. Means we'd have to drop a tarrant/brown or goldsack and play a tall forward line. Maybe its something we could trial this week.

Sure Dawes and Cloke have failed to capitalise on all their opportunities and this impacts on team morale, but that has happened many times in years past and not had the same impact.

Lloyd is normally pretty reasonable in his opinions but in this regard I think he has raised a trophy issue, not the real problem. MOSTLY the games and quarters we have lost this year have been about loosing control of the ball at stoppages/through the middle and inability to move the ball forward quickly, accurately and too space.

The big question to me is how a group of mids (of the the calibre the pies have) are unable to use the ball better when we have possession and unable to counter the opposition when they have it. Is it lack of an effective plan, inability to implement the game plan or for some reason is the current coaching panel unable to get the best of their existing personnel?

 

[eddiebankbalance]

Has Loyd being living under a rock? A few of us called this weeks/months back! Time for a change!

 

[jonbe54]

Loyd called it as he saw it.

Yes it is too late now to experiment with our tall timbers in the forward line, and too right we should've cut our losses with the Dawes role earlier in the season. Dawes is devoid of confidence and is unable to execute his 2012 responsibilities to an acceptable level.

Having said that the team has been able to cover those deficiencies earlier in the season which gave us the luxury of waiting to see if they hit form.

The theory is that you need your big guns firing in September, ours are currently stuttering along. Our 1990 forward line was small, and BT did not feature. Should we learn from history?

As for 1990 you run with what you brung Jath, we can only play the hand we have been dealt. Too much has gone wrong in the last 18 months for any football club to be on top of its game I'm far from happy to be facing the possibility of missing the GF but I'm not prepared to blame any one player or group in the team.

 

[ipswichpies]

Jathanas
I don,t Think it is too late mate Ceglar can come in take over the 2nd ruck role and according to some he actually holds his marks and Paine,s form in the 2,s has been very good recently what worries me is that we meander along and nothing changes I would rather go down with a bang than a whimper.

I do feel it is time to make a change we should have tried Ceglar earlier but as I say I would prefer to die trying rather than stick with the status quo our big forwards have had more than enough chance to turn it around.

 

[jathanas]

As for 1990 you run with what you brung Jath, we can only play the hand we have been dealt. Too much has gone wrong in the last 18 months for any football club to be on top of its game I'm far from happy to be facing the possibility of missing the GF but I'm not prepared to blame any one player or group in the team.

I don't mean to blame Dawes or the forward line Jon and I can see now that my message can easily be interpreted that way.

My point, and I should've been clear the first time, is that we should be cutting our losses with the current set-up and dare to try something new. Even if it is with the same players as it might be beneficial to their confidence and our results if we play them differently.

Having said that Matthews pulled Taylor from the side in 1990 and was rewarded, it could've easily backfired...

Ninja edit: 100% agree that our last 18 months have been s*&t for all intents and purposes.

 

[Shade]

Thanks captain obvious Matty Llyod

my only gripe with Buckley so far is his damn stubbornness to make sure Dawes works it quite clearly doesn't and im still not sure why the entire year he has gone with it.

We need a good off-season this one could propel us in to top 2 next year or we could fade away to the middle of the pack