Luke Livingston vs Bret Thornton

[HBF]

Where do both of these blokes rate with Carlton fans out there. Some background on both shows that Livingston was picked up in the 2000 draft (No.4) behind Reiwoldt, Kos....... and Didak. Came down from the country with potential (the ugliest word in footy) to be a real real good player.

Bret Thornton was picked up in the 2001 rookie draft and was promoted onto the senior list last year.

Right at the minute Thornton would be in front. Shows alot of composure on the ground, has reasonable skills and gets penetration from his kicking. Could really learn his trade well on a back flank until he fills out and then could make CHB his own. Has some quality people to learn from (SOS, Martyn, Beaumont and McKay).

Appreciate that Livingston is being groomed as Full-Back and this will take time. Started to show something last year and will be helped big time by Martyn coming to Carlton. Both of these guys could form a pretty solid defence for the Blues in a few years time.

 

[LordLucifer]

Neither Thornton nor Livingston will ever become key position players - end of story !!

 

[HBF]

Appreciate your thoughts sheik, but we may have to disagree here. I'm willing at least to be patient with these 2 guys. They show enough to at least be perservered with.

 

[LordLucifer]

I'm not doubting their ability to play the game here HBF, it's just that at 190cm, they are just too short for a key position. How could you expect either one of these guys to hold a Lloyd 194cm or a Richardson 196cm ???

They will be good players for Carlton but not down the spine.

 

[The Spornstar]

You never know Sheik. You are probably right, but Michael Sexton and Peter Dean both managed to play on far bigger players than them, and they are shorter than both Livo and Thornton. I can see Thornton handling a key posy if he bulks up. Not sure on Livo....

 

[EagleBlue]

Thornton in my opinion has more talent/promise in his little finger than Livingston has in his entire body, and to think that Livingston is a No4 draft pick and Thornton is a rookie pick

 

[LordLucifer]

Originally posted by The Spornstar
You never know Sheik. You are probably right, but Michael Sexton and Peter Dean both managed to play on far bigger players than them, and they are shorter than both Livo and Thornton. I can see Thornton handling a key posy if he bulks up. Not sure on Livo....

Sporny, Sexton was around 192-193cm so he was better suited to a match up on the bigger forwards. Dean always took the third forward, not one of the two key position players. Both of these guys are reasonably solid in defence but if they don't have the height, they will never be able to contain a bigger, taller stronger marking forward.

We need to find another Val Perovic & Geoff Southby, unfortunately, Thornton & Livingston are just not big enough to do that. Too many Blues fans have talked themselves into believing that they will be. The sad truth is that if we have of had the two key defenders last year, these young guys would never have been put in those roles and therefore, the concept wouldn't have ever been seen or thought of.

 

[BlueMark]

Watched alot of training this year, while hopeful that Livo will make it as a KKP player he needs a year beside Martyn to watch up nice close how it is done. Thornton however is a different kettle of fish. He is near fearless and very very determined. Have watched him take on Kouta in a practice match and nullify him. Saw him spoil Whitnal with ease on many occassions. Gave Kernahan an absoulte bath during marking duels, including riding Kerna into the ground that drew claps from the "Sopranos'. Thornton is still growing and has yet to fill out. Barring injury he is a ten year player for us and given a season or two to mature will be a KKP.

 

[LordLucifer]

BM, I have high hopes for Thornton and genuinely hope he does develop into a ten year player for us. However, he is going to have to do some serious growing and quite quickly if he is to fill out enough to become a key position player. Have a look at his stats from the player profile :

Guernsey Number: 32
Height 189cm
Weight: 83kg
Recruited From: Mt Waverley Blues/Oakleigh U18
Debut: 2002
Date of Birth: 15 November 1983

Whilst he is 19yo at the moment, at 189cm & he is way too short for a big gig and being only 83kg, he will be outbodied far too easily. I agree that he will be able to fill out in the body mass but unless they put him on the rack, I doubt that he will grow the extra 5-6cm needed for him to be a genuine CHB or FB.

 

[BlueMark]

Would suggest that Thornton has grown and a summer in the Gym would make him heavier than 83kg. Player profiles re wieght and height are notouriosly inaccurate. Anybody who can keep Kouta quiet and go toe to toe with Jackovich has the temperment to succeed. Give him a couple of more years to mature and I think Carlton will be even more happy with him than they are now. Also noted that during the Collingwood game the Collingwood forwards were delibertly (read illeagally) blocking Thornton from going with his man on the lead. The fact that he made so many contests was a testament to his determination, particuallly as he usually had to beat two players to get there.

 

[BluesPrez]

Sheik, have you seen Thornton on TV or in person? He is *noticeably* bigger than last year. His shoulders are broader and he seems to have more bulk in the chest region and in the arms. He seems a little taller as well. I reckon he is about 191cm. He plays well body-on-body.

Lloyd is 191cm. He is not that big. Tredrea 194cm yes, Richardson 197cm. Please get your facts right.

 

[LordLucifer]

Originally posted by BluesPrez
Sheik, have you seen Thornton on TV or in person? He is *noticeably* bigger than last year. His shoulders are broader and he seems to have more bulk in the chest region and in the arms. He seems a little taller as well. I reckon he is about 191cm. He plays well body-on-body.

Lloyd is 191cm. He is not that big. Tredrea 194cm yes, Richardson 197cm. Please get your facts right.

Firstly, the AFL listed Lloyd as 194 last year and have him at 191 this year so I doubt he has shrunk. I definitely believe he is around the 194cm figure.

Even if Thornton has grown (and I doubt that guys of 18-20 yo actually grow anymore at that age anyway), 191 is still too short for a geniune CHB. It's great to hear he has put some bulk on his body as he was a bit light last year and needed the all physical strength he could get. Yes, he may play well body-on-body but that doesn't mean diddley-squat if he isn't tall enough to match it in the air with a defensive punch. This is the crux of my argument here, the best forwards in the league are not only big & strong on the ground, they are extremely effective in the air too. If we cannot spoil or try and outmark them, then all the opposition has to do is bomb long and we are gone.

 

[BluesPrez]

Lloyd has always been 191cm. He doesn't look that big in real life anyway. Thornton's leap isn't that bad and this allows him to play taller than his height. Same goes for Manton, though Manton is just too one-dimensional and his poor disposal make him less of a candidate for key-position.

 

[LordLucifer]

Originally posted by BluesPrez
Lloyd has always been 191cm. He doesn't look that big in real life anyway. Thornton's leap isn't that bad and this allows him to play taller than his height. Same goes for Manton, though Manton is just too one-dimensional and his poor disposal make him less of a candidate for key-position.

I don't want to argue the toss over an opposition players height, needless to say he has to be covered by a very capable defender. Glenn Manton is and never was a key position defender, but for some unusual reason he seems to have a good record against Lloyd.

 

[mel 40]

Lukey baby.

I was watching a game last year and was sitting near bret, and hes pretty tall, not tall enough for a kpp, but we need that kind of height at the doggies.

Anyway i hope they are both really good players you carlton this year.