Mandatory Vaccinations And Medical Exemptions

Are you for or against Mandatory Vaccinations

  • For

    Votes: 292 57.4%

  • Against

    Votes: 221 43.4%
  • Total voters
    509

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Slippery Pete said:
California, 70k deaths. Brutal lockdowns. New York, 55k deaths. Brutal lockdowns.

It staggers me that after nearly two years, people are still defending locking healthy people in their homes, destroying businesses, and inflicting untold damage to the mental and physical wellbeing of an entire population.

Talk about sunk-cost fallacy…

Disease isn't new. Viruses aren't new. Sickness isn't new. Vaccines aren't new. What is new is this mass psychosis, overblown panic, and tyranny in the guise of ”safety.”

Weirdos don't want to accept this basic position because they're in a cult that has absolutely nothing to do with science nor ethics.
Click to expand...
Australia?
 
People wonder why conversations don't go well in these threads and then say things like this once they put forward their ideas:

"Weirdos don't want to accept this basic position because they're in a cult that has absolutely nothing to do with science nor ethics."
"You communists get so personal"
"You're a moron, making moronic arguments, to illustrate how much of a moron you are."
"oh thats right i forgot your the complete and utter nutcase..."

Quality strategy to encourage people to actually discuss your point in an intelligent manner. It amazes me that we never get anywhere in these discussions... I wonder why?
 

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Gruffles said:
Quality strategy to encourage people to actually discuss your point in an intelligent manner. It amazes me that we never get anywhere in these discussions... I wonder why?
Click to expand...

You assume there's any interest in getting them to discuss it in an intelligent manner?

Most of those coming to post here have already picked their side, and won't be swayed by anything, so why bother?

All you can do sometimes is point out the idiocy of some of these people, such that anyone else coming along and reading it isn't tricked by their misinformation. I've long since stopped considering these people are posting in good faith.
 
owen87 said:
You assume there's any interest in getting them to discuss it in an intelligent manner?

Most of those coming to post here have already picked their side, and won't be swayed by anything, so why bother?

All you can do sometimes is point out the idiocy of some of these people, such that anyone else coming along and reading it isn't tricked by their misinformation. I've long since stopped considering these people are posting in good faith.
Click to expand...

You have no interest in discussing things in an intelligent manner? Weird thing to say.

The quotes I took come from both sides of the argument... just pointing that out.

I would've thought that people coming along and reading this thread will skip a lot of it because it's just adults slinging insults at each other and arguing like kids who think they know everything already and who think they're awesome. If someone posts bad information... call out the information, not the person. Maybe that will help them reconsider the information rather than taking a defensive approach and doubling down on what they've posted.

I get it... I've tried and people tend to not enjoy the conversation because it's not riddled with emotive personal attacks so they move on to replying to the posts that are. Maybe we're all just bored? Or... maybe the bigger issue is not mandatory vaccine, lockdowns or obesity, but rather that we're all just assholes.
 
Gruffles said:
You have no interest in discussing things in an intelligent manner? Weird thing to say.

The quotes I took come from both sides of the argument... just pointing that out.

I would've thought that people coming along and reading this thread will skip a lot of it because it's just adults slinging insults at each other and arguing like kids who think they know everything already and who think they're awesome. If someone posts bad information... call out the information, not the person. Maybe that will help them reconsider the information rather than taking a defensive approach and doubling down on what they've posted.

I get it... I've tried and people tend to not enjoy the conversation because it's not riddled with emotive personal attacks so they move on to replying to the posts that are. Maybe we're all just bored? Or... maybe the bigger issue is not mandatory vaccine, lockdowns or obesity, but rather that we're all just assholes.
Click to expand...

I know, one of the quotes was mine :p

I've tried a number of times to address posts made in good faith, but when people don't want to discuss in good faith (which a number of people here, clearly don't) then it just becomes the amusement of trolling. So yes, being an arsehole.

There's a group of people that spend their time actively posting misinformation, making disingenuous arguments disguised as good faith ones, and generally are more invested in being selfish than in taking in or acknowledging anything that might require them to consider the good of the community. After the last 18 months my time and energy for those people is extremely limited.

For those genuinely interested in a discussion, that behave in a good faith manner, there's plenty of middle ground that can be shared, but it fundamentally requires that good faith to exist from the outset.
 
owen87 said:
For those genuinely interested in a discussion, that behave in a good faith manner, there's plenty of middle ground that can be shared, but it fundamentally requires that good faith to exist from the outset.
Click to expand...

Amen to that! Now if only that was the more prominent theme to these threads. I for one would vote for more kingswood71 posts as they're actually informative.

Just FYI... my point was to not call out specific people. But it really does feel like this thread of 97 pages is just 6 people yelling at each other with a spattering of reasonable posts being lost in the noise, which I guess is what most BigFooty threads end up being anyway, right?

Anyway... *ding* *ding* *ding* Round 98... have at it!
 
HTT said:
‘But vaccines don’t stop you transmitting the vir-’
Click to expand...

But that's in a locked down state right? What's to say its the vaccine and not the lockdown causing the trend, or at the very least a combination of both.
They need to release all restrictions and then see how the vaccine goes to reduce transmission.
 
FlowersByIrene said:
But that's in a locked down state right? What's to say its the vaccine and not the lockdown causing the trend, or at the very least a combination of both.
They need to release all restrictions and then see how the vaccine goes to reduce transmission.
Click to expand...

Transmission will increase post lockdown- no one is stating that it won't

But if you combined opening up and minimal Vax it be a lot messier
Percentage of vaxxed patients in hospital says it all
 

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FlowersByIrene said:
But that's in a locked down state right? What's to say its the vaccine and not the lockdown causing the trend, or at the very least a combination of both.
They need to release all restrictions and then see how the vaccine goes to reduce transmission.
Click to expand...
Do you notice that the Reff is dropping consistently, despite restrictions lowering your over time?
What do you think is causing that?
 
HTT said:
Australia?
Click to expand...

When an island country miles away from any other civilization closes its borders to the entire world for two years, you would expect its death toll from seasonal respiratory viruses to be eons lower.

Things you probably wouldn’t expect:
-A police state
-Mass job losses
-Mass national debt
-A mental health crisis
-Small and medium businesses crushed
-Two years of stalled development in childhood education
-International reputation trashed
-States within the federation acting like separate countries
-Australian citizens trapped overseas, not allowed to return home
-The country held hostage by half a dozen unelected state-level public health officials with tyrant complexes, who tell you if you stand up to drink, catch a football, or talk to your neighbour…. You. Will. Die.

Next point: by all medical reports, this is likely to become an endemic virus, which, like other seasonal respiratory viruses, spreads freely in the community no matter what, and kills thousands of people year upon year. There is no “end“ death tally. If any of these restrictions actually did anything aside from cause mass suffering, lack of trust, and destruction, all they did was stave off the inevitable reality — something that will become quite clear to everybody very soon.

We could’ve done that a long time ago without the “things you didn’t expect” list.
 
Slippery Pete said:
When an island country miles away from any other civilization closes its borders to the entire world for two years, you would expect its death toll from seasonal respiratory viruses to be eons lower.

Things you probably wouldn’t expect:
-A police state
-Mass job losses
-Mass national debt
-A mental health crisis
-Small and medium businesses crushed
-Two years of stalled development in childhood education
-International reputation trashed
-States within the federation acting like separate countries
-Australian citizens trapped overseas, not allowed to return home
-The country held hostage by half a dozen unelected state-level public health officials with tyrant complexes, who tell you if you stand up to drink, catch a football, or talk to your neighbour…. You. Will. Die.

Next point: by all medical reports, this is likely to become an endemic virus, which, like other seasonal respiratory viruses, spreads freely in the community no matter what, and kills thousands of people year upon year. There is no “end“ death tally. If any of these restrictions actually did anything aside from cause mass suffering, lack of trust, and destruction, all they did was stave off the inevitable reality — something that will become quite clear to everybody very soon.

We could’ve done that a long time ago without the “things you didn’t expect” list.
Click to expand...

So to clarify;

You're of the belief, that had we not locked down in any way, we would have the same number of deaths that we currently have, and are likely to have moving forward with a close to fully vaccinated population. You're also of the belief that this wouldn't have enormous ramifications on the health system at large, compromising healthcare for every single person that needs it. You also believe that mass suffering, lack of trust and destruction, would not have occurred in any way, were that path to have been taken.


 
Slippery Pete said:
When an island country miles away from any other civilization closes its borders to the entire world for two years, you would expect its death toll from seasonal respiratory viruses to be eons lower.

Things you probably wouldn’t expect:
-A police state
-Mass job losses
-Mass national debt
-A mental health crisis
-Small and medium businesses crushed
-Two years of stalled development in childhood education
-International reputation trashed
-States within the federation acting like separate countries
-Australian citizens trapped overseas, not allowed to return home
-The country held hostage by half a dozen unelected state-level public health officials with tyrant complexes, who tell you if you stand up to drink, catch a football, or talk to your neighbour…. You. Will. Die.

Next point: by all medical reports, this is likely to become an endemic virus, which, like other seasonal respiratory viruses, spreads freely in the community no matter what, and kills thousands of people year upon year. There is no “end“ death tally. If any of these restrictions actually did anything aside from cause mass suffering, lack of trust, and destruction, all they did was stave off the inevitable reality — something that will become quite clear to everybody very soon.

We could’ve done that a long time ago without the “things you didn’t expect” list.
Click to expand...
That's nonsense.

We didn't close from the world. We let the virus in.

Once it's here, being an island matters little.


In terms of staving off the inevitable, that's exactly what the lockdowns did. That's all they were ever intended to do.
 
owen87 said:
So to clarify;

You're of the belief, that had we not locked down in any way, we would have the same number of deaths that we currently have, and are likely to have moving forward with a close to fully vaccinated population. You're also of the belief that this wouldn't have enormous ramifications on the health system at large, compromising healthcare for every single person that needs it. You also believe that mass suffering, lack of trust and destruction, would not have occurred in any way, were that path to have been taken.


Click to expand...


I’m of the belief that the juice has not been worth the squeeze.

Objectively, that is true to any reasonable person, and history will show it to be true.

There is a swathe of middle ground between the police state that Melbourne has become, and “letting it rip.”

The fundamental premise that necessarily underpins your unwavering support for nearly two years of this insanity, is that even one death from Covid is too many. Most of the last two years, the nation has been going for Covid-zero. So the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that zero deaths from Covid were acceptable (up until very recently when the nation’s “leaders” finally conceded this was a hopeless proposition).

Why? Explain that premise to me.

It is a premise that is not applied to any other walk of life, or any other illness. We accept death on a daily basis, from a range of illnesses (including contagious ones) and accidents.

Around 1000 Australians died of influenza in 2019. Not a single measure was taken, not a single restriction was applied, not a single mask was worn. Nothing.

I’ll ask you this: how many livelihoods, and lives, depend on the Australian economy being a fully-functioning, robust, first-world economy? This is just a guess, but I reckon it’s around 25 million.

You know what you have without Australia’s economy, and it’s ”non-essential” workers? You have nothing. You have no hospitals to protect from being overcrowded, you have no people to protect, you have no country.

You have nothing.
 
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Slippery Pete said:
I’m of the belief that the juice has not been worth the squeeze.

Objectively, that is true to any reasonable person, and history will show it to be true.

There is a swathe of middle ground between the police state that Melbourne has become, and “letting it rip.”

The fundamental premise that necessarily underpins your unwavering support for nearly two years of this insanity, is that even one death from Covid is too many. Most of the last two years, the nation has been going for Covid-zero. So the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that zero deaths from Covid were acceptable (up until very recently when the nation’s “leaders” finally conceded this was a hopeless proposition).

Why? Explain that premise to me.

It is a premise that is not applied to any other walk of life, or any other illness. We accept death on a daily basis, from a range of illnesses (including contagious ones) and accidents.

Around 1000 Australians died of influenza in 2019. Not a single measure was taken, not a single restriction was applied, not a single mask was worn. Nothing.

I’ll ask you this: how many livelihoods, and lives, depend on the Australian economy being a fully-functioning, robust, first-world economy? This is just a guess, but I reckon it’s around 25 million.

You know what you have without Australia’s economy, and it’s ”non-essential” workers? You have nothing. You have no hospitals to protect from being overcrowded, you have no people to protect, you have no country.

You have nothing.
Click to expand...

Here is a prime example of a post that is driven heavily by emotions and opinions aimed at also appealing to emotions rather than discussing something reasonably.

Firstly... you mean "subjectively" where you say "objectively" (although I suspect you wrote objectively on purpose) and trying to discount anyone that doesn't agree with your belief which you stated in your first sentence as an unreasonable person is purely your opinion and, in my opinion, is an unreasonable view.

Also, I agree that there is a swathe of middle ground between "police state" and "letting it rip", but to state that Melbourne is at the police state end of that spectrum is, once again, your subjective view. Personally, it seems the police haven't got the memo on what a police state is. I've driven around on numerous occasions during this lockdown and not once been pulled over and questioned. As well as this, I have actually never seen so many people picnicking in my local park as I did on the weekend just passed (me included), and not a police officer in sight. This does feel like we're sitting somewhere in that middle ground you mentioned in your post.

Finally your ending is purely speculative drama.

Now, if you take out all of that and actually post in a reasonable way then people are more likely to actually engage in some logical discussion rather than what this post is destined to get, which is a lot of emotive replies.

But, hey, maybe that is the goal in most of the posts you put up here.
 
kingswood71 said:
Their vaccination rate is actually 97% of over 65's with one dose and 85% fully vaccinated over 65's.
I suspect that may be important too.
Click to expand...

And here is a reasonable post that provides data for discussion. Not emotive, not dramatic, not opinions presented as facts.

You're the hero this thread deserves, Kingswood71!
 
FlowersByIrene said:
But that's in a locked down state right? What's to say its the vaccine and not the lockdown causing the trend, or at the very least a combination of both.
They need to release all restrictions and then see how the vaccine goes to reduce transmission.
Click to expand...
Agreed. People seem to make a big deal about the decreased effectiveness at stopping infections, however we always knew this would happen. Effectiveness almost never remains at the same levels as study efficacy does. This is especially relevant to covid, as we expected new variants. I was advising people in April that the vaccines may not stop you catching covid as this was the advice I had until then. I am shocked that other people are shocked :)
The main point is (and always has been at least since January) that the effectiveness against hospitalizations and deaths remains high. And it has.
 
Slippery Pete said:
I’m of the belief that the juice has not been worth the squeeze.

Objectively, that is true to any reasonable person, and history will show it to be true.

There is a swathe of middle ground between the police state that Melbourne has become, and “letting it rip.”

The fundamental premise that necessarily underpins your unwavering support for nearly two years of this insanity, is that even one death from Covid is too many. Most of the last two years, the nation has been going for Covid-zero. So the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that zero deaths from Covid were acceptable (up until very recently when the nation’s “leaders” finally conceded this was a hopeless proposition).

Why? Explain that premise to me.

It is a premise that is not applied to any other walk of life, or any other illness. We accept death on a daily basis, from a range of illnesses (including contagious ones) and accidents.

Around 1000 Australians died of influenza in 2019. Not a single measure was taken, not a single restriction was applied, not a single mask was worn. Nothing.

I’ll ask you this: how many livelihoods, and lives, depend on the Australian economy being a fully-functioning, robust, first-world economy? This is just a guess, but I reckon it’s around 25 million.

You know what you have without Australia’s economy, and it’s ”non-essential” workers? You have nothing. You have no hospitals to protect from being overcrowded, you have no people to protect, you have no country.

You have nothing.
Click to expand...
I think Covid-zero was a fair call whilst awaiting vaccines. Once we rolled these out, things changed. I have read all the modeling and whilst i agree with a lot of it, there are parts of it I dont. I would have given an opening date and encouraged vaccination by then, especially for high risks groups.
Lockdowns saved lives, no doubt. The vaccine does too.
 
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