Michael Griffiths - East Freo

[deluxeman]

No, we've only drafted mature age players from other AFL clubs that cannot get a senior game at their old clubs, and they were still ordinary playing in VFL. Let's get some elite VFL/SANFL defenders and there are some available. Fevola is 26 and Marc Murphy is 18, we need more players between those age group.

Deluca, Kenna, Bryan were all taken from the VFL. Mott was playing in the WAFL I'm pretty sure. And as for all those players that couldn't get a game at their respective AFL clubs, they are better than those players in the VFL. They had talent but couldn't cut it. Look at players like Chambers, Livingston, Harford etc, they dominate the VFL but can never translate that form into the AFL.

Elite VFL/SANFL players are only 'elite' in those competitions. They cannot make it in the AFL. If they could they would be on AFL lists.

FFS, just about or whole list is in between 18-26. These players are not the answer and if the last three years hasn't made you see that, then I don't know what will.

 

[cfc05]

Have you learned absolutely nothing from the events of the last few years? We drafted so many mature age players from other AFL clubs, the VFL and other second-tier competitions and what do we have to show for it? A bunch of delistings and one success story.

The strategy of recruting mature aged players to fill holes doesn't work when you don't have a core group of star players around them. WE need to develop those star players and they aren't going to come in the form of 24 year old defenders.

You can say that I am too youth obsessed but that is not the case. If a genuine good player was avaliable from one of the other AFL clubs who was 25 years old I would grab them in a second. The difference between those players and these second-tier players is that there is a reason why they are playing in those second-tier competitions.

HAHAH i have said all through this thread i dont want second teir players, nor do i want ******** from other afl clubs (people who have proven there not upto the top level, mick martyn, etc) i have said this numerous times!!

I dont mind us using picks past the 4th round on an elite player dominating in a good league who is around the age on 22.

Read what i have said the whole way through buddy before you post, many have agreed with me - just because a player is 23 or something, dosnt mean he should be discarded for an 18 year old at the expense of looking at their football abilities!

 

[cfc05]

Deluca, Kenna, Bryan were all taken from the VFL. Mott was playing in the WAFL I'm pretty sure. And as for all those players that couldn't get a game at their respective AFL clubs, they are better than those players in the VFL. They had talent but couldn't cut it. Look at players like Chambers, Livingston, Harford etc, they dominate the VFL but can never translate that form into the AFL.

Elite VFL/SANFL players are only 'elite' in those competitions. They cannot make it in the AFL. If they could they would be on AFL lists.

FFS, just about or whole list is in between 18-26. These players are not the answer and if the last three years hasn't made you see that, then I don't know what will.

Pick 83 isnt going to solve all your problems either!! go through sixth round picks of 5 years ago, see how many are still on AFL lists - If WH reckons he can find a potential player at this pick who is aged between 20-24 im not going to stand back and say he should of gone for an 18 year old.

Although oddly enough, 6th round picks have been more succesful than 5th round picks of late - go figure??

 

[deluxeman]

HAHAH i have said all through this thread i dont want second teir players, nor do i want ******** from other afl clubs (people who have proven there not upto the top level, mick martyn, etc) i have said this numerous times!!

I dont mind us using picks past the 4th round on an elite player dominating in a good league who is around the age on 22.

Read what i have said the whole way through buddy before you post, many have agreed with me - just because a player is 23 or something, dosnt mean he should be discarded for an 18 year old at the expense of looking at their football abilities!

YOu said that you want to pick up from a '20-24 year old defender' or a ruckman with the last pick from I am assuming a second-tier competition like the VFL. The players that are playing in these competitions have been overlooked by clubs on numerous occasions for specific reasons. They are not good enough. I said that if a good player came up from an AFL list that I would consider them, that is very different to those players playing in the VFL.

Pick 83 isnt going to solve all your problems either!! go through sixth round picks of 5 years ago, see how many are still on AFL lists - If WH reckons he can find a potential player at this pick who is aged between 20-24 im not going to stand back and say he should of gone for an 18 year old.

I suggest you go look through the amount of successful late picks in the draft and rookie drafts that have bene young players and compare it to mature age players which have been successful. I guarntee you that there will be more success stories from the young players. Just think back to 2001 where we got Brad Fisher with Pick 72 or players like Bentick from the rookie list who have been a hell of lot more successful that any mature aged player we picked up.

If WH decides to overlook young ruckmen due to the prospect of a 20-24 year old ruckmen then I will be angry, because he has tried it before and it has failed on numerous occasions.

 

[Korn]

FFS, just about or whole list is in between 18-26. These players are not the answer and if the last three years hasn't made you see that, then I don't know what will.

what whole list?? murphy, kennedy, blackwell <-- that group is the 18 yr old groups, the really young ones. Then u have Fevola, stevens, whitnall, Scotland, the 26-27 group. The middle group i was referring is the Sporn, Predergast, Bennister group, And we got rid of most of them already. By the time we are playing in the finals the fevola group will be close to 30, and the Murphy group will only be in their early 20's, during that time we needed a group of players in their mid 20's, that age group is when players really peaked, and I am saying that we are lacking players in that group that will be avaiable when we are playing in the final.

Deluca, kenna, Bryan and Mott were never considered to be elite players, do u watch VFL at all? Look how ordinary Deluca was during the finals.

 

[deluxeman]

what whole list?? murphy, kennedy, blackwell <-- that group is the 18 yr old groups, the really young ones. Then u have Fevola, stevens, whitnall, Scotland, the 26-27 group. The middle group i was referring is the Sporn, Predergast, Bennister group, And we got rid of most of them already. By the time we are playing in the finals the fevola group will be close to 30, and the Murphy group will only be in their early 20's, during that time we needed a group of players in their mid 20's, that age group is when players really peaked, and I am saying that we are lacking players in that group that will be avaiable when we are playing in the final.

Deluca, kenna, Bryan and Mott were never considered to be elite players, do u watch VFL at all? Look how ordinary Deluca was during the finals.

I suggest you go and look at the ages of our list. Players like Simpson, Waite, Fisher, Carrazzo, Bentick, Thornton etc are all aged within 20-23 range. By the time those players you mentioned have turned 21-22 these are the players that you'd expect to be reaching their peak. Not dud players from the VFL.

I didn't see Deluca during the finals but when you consider that somebody like Prendergast kicked 8 goals one day in the VFL and then struggled to do anything in the AFL, it shows the huge difference in talent and skill required. These 'elite' players you speak of, will only be elite in the VFL/SANFL as the overwhelming majority are not good enough to play in the AFL.

 

[Boy from the West]

Pity Griffiths used to get thrashed by Ackland and Parry in the SANFL, 196cm and 194cm respectively. He struggled to even make the SANFL, spent lots of time in and out of the Glenelg side, mostly in the ressies. Showed signs here and there that he can ruck, and moved very well for his size but seemed to genuinely lack skill and ruck nous.

He must have improved since then, those stats look ok. SANFL wise he was averaging around 2 kicks 3 handballs 2 marks and about 8 taps a game.

That's because he has spent the time since developing. IMO he is ahead of most of the 18 year old ruck prospects (except the outstanding ones like Leuenberger) and is therefore a legitimate draft prospect.

Why take an 18 ruck prospect at a late pick and hope he comes good when you have a 23 year old giant that you can get for the same pick. It saves 5 years of developing and a greater prospect of being successful.

 

[Korn]

I suggest you go and look at the ages of our list. Players like Simpson, Waite, Fisher, Carrazzo, Bentick, Thornton etc are all aged within 20-23 range. By the time those players you mentioned have turned 21-22 these are the players that you'd expect to be reaching their peak. Not dud players from the VFL.

I am referring to Key position defenders, and we don't have any, thornton can only be a michael sexton at best.

I didn't see Deluca during the finals but when you consider that somebody like Prendergast kicked 8 goals one day in the VFL and then struggled to do anything in the AFL, it shows the huge difference in talent and skill required. These 'elite' players you speak of, will only be elite in the VFL/SANFL as the overwhelming majority are not good enough to play in the AFL.

Predergast kicked 8 goals one day, u are exactly right, it's only one day, he has been struggled for the rest of the games (most). I want to pick a very consistent player who is able to perform week in week out. You are practically saying that every single player in the 2nd tier league are all duds. I am trying to say look for someone special, and trust me there are a few out there. Why can't we develop a player a 22 yrs old just like we would spend time to develop a player who is 17?

 

[cfc05]

Deluxaman i dont think any of us are debating that some recent mature age pick ups by carlton have been shocking. We all just beleive a 20-23 year old ruckmen playing great CONSISTENT (not prendagast 8 goals ONE week) football at WAFL, SANFL, etc level wouldnt be a wasted pick.

Bryan was in this catergory, and yes i guess now could be seen as a failure. But if he has the right attitude and work ethic could of been an excellent pick up, with such a late draft pick i dont mind taking this risk.

There is rarely an 18 year old ruckmen who is any better than the best early 20's ruckmen in a top league - Leundenburger and ryder and fraser have been recent exceptions.

If WH believes this 23 year old monster is better than other draftees left, would you honestly say dont pick him?

 

[deluxeman]

Predergast kicked 8 goals one day, u are exactly right, it's only one day, he has been struggled for the rest of the games (most). I want to pick a very consistent player who is able to perform week in week out. You are practically saying that every single player in the 2nd tier league are all duds. I am trying to say look for someone special, and trust me there are a few out there. Why can't we develop a player a 22 yrs old just like we would spend time to develop a player who is 17?

I'm not saying their all duds. The majority of them are very good football players but they are simply not good enough for the AFL. The reason why we shouldn't be developing these 22 year olds is because clubs have looked at them before and judged them not to be good enough. More consistent dominant players in the VFL this year like Morrell and Chambers still failed in the AFL.

Myabe it is possible to find a gem in the VFL. But you have to play your percentages. There have been way more success stories of 17-18 year old players being taken late in the ND or in the rookie draft than 22-23 year old players.

Deluxaman i dont think any of us are debating that some recent mature age pick ups by carlton have been shocking. We all just beleive a 20-23 year old ruckmen playing great CONSISTENT (not prendagast 8 goals ONE week) football at WAFL, SANFL, etc level wouldnt be a wasted pick.

No all of them have been shockers. Nobody apart from Scotland has done anything of note and he wasn't even a second-hand player but just out of favour at his club. Chambers, Morrell etc are consistent in the VFL. Yet they cannot cut it in the AFL.

Bryan was in this catergory, and yes i guess now could be seen as a failure. But if he has the right attitude and work ethic could of been an excellent pick up, with such a late draft pick i dont mind taking this risk.

There is rarely an 18 year old ruckmen who is any better than the best early 20's ruckmen in a top league - Leundenburger and ryder and fraser have been recent exceptions.

Thats exactly my point. There is so much young talent in the draft that the most successful ruckmen now, are guys like Cox, Sandilands etc who came off the rookie list after being drafted at a young age and developed. There are so many success stories like that than 23 year old ruckmen being picked up from second-tier competitions and making it in the AFL.

If WH believes this 23 year old monster is better than other draftees left, would you honestly say dont pick him?

If the 23 year old ruckmen is taken at the expense of drafting a young ruckmen and we go into next year with only Aisake as a developing ruckmen, then yes. I would rather he not be picked up.

 

[WalkerTexasRanger]

With plenty of picks why not pick up a young ruckman with a pick before 67, use 67 on Griffiths. If there is some truth to WCE interest and they pick him up - then that might suggest something.

Being 23 in and of itself is no reason to rule him out - we can develop a youngster as well and still pick him up if he is seen to be good. Personally I think the WCE have been pretty bloody good with their mid field selections and development and if they are interested in this guy then I instinctively think we should consider it.

I would be worried about his knees - once you have one knee reco - you more than double the chance of rupturing ligaments in your other good knee.

 

[C4[2]Yo`DooR]

67 - Goldstein/Griffiths

81 - Griffiths/Goldstein.

 

[deluxeman]

With plenty of picks why not pick up a young ruckman with a pick before 67, use 67 on Griffiths. If there is some truth to WCE interest and they pick him up - then that might suggest something.

Being 23 in and of itself is no reason to rule him out - we can develop a youngster as well and still pick him up if he is seen to be good. Personally I think the WCE have been pretty bloody good with their mid field selections and development and if they are interested in this guy then I instinctively think we should consider it.

I would be worried about his knees - once you have one knee reco - you more than double the chance of rupturing ligaments in your other good knee.

You see the difference between WCE and us is that they can afford to take a huge punt on 23 year old, knowing full well that many of these players haven't succeeded because if worse comes to worse, they have Cox and Seaby as top class ruckmen who have been taken from the draft and devloped.

We have no A grade ruckmen. We desperately need to develop some A grade ruckmen to avoid making the same mistakes that we have for the last 5 years by failing to draft young ruckmen in the ND. FFS, by selecting a couple of young ruckmen we are giving ourselves a chance to develop a promising ruckmen. That doesn't mean that all these 23 year old are deadwood but in the position that Carlton are in now, we shouldn't be selecting these type of players.

 

[WalkerTexasRanger]

You see the difference between WCE and us is that they can afford to take a huge punt on 23 year old, knowing full well that many of these players haven't succeeded because if worse comes to worse, they have Cox and Seaby as top class ruckmen who have been taken from the draft and devloped.

We have no A grade ruckmen. We desperately need to develop some A grade ruckmen to avoid making the same mistakes that we have for the last 5 years by failing to draft young ruckmen in the ND. FFS, by selecting a couple of young ruckmen we are giving ourselves a chance to develop a promising ruckmen. That doesn't mean that all these 23 year old are deadwood but in the position that Carlton are in now, we shouldn't be selecting these type of players.

Do you think that we would get a future A grade youngster like a Cox Sandilands etc at pick 67?

 

[deluxeman]

Do you think that we would get a future A grade youngster like a Cox Sandilands etc at pick 67?

When you consider that both those players came off their respective clubs' rookie lists, I don't see why not.