Operating Surplus

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Wampeter said:
Now there'll be a thread on the main board about our unfair wealth taken from the mouths of poor Melbourne clubs.
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Probably.

But its a surplus before depreciation and other things.
So we are probably still in the negative.

That was always going to be the case for a while.


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General Giant said:
Probably.

But its a surplus before depreciation and other things.
So we are probably still in the negative.

That was always going to be the case for a while.


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If they have money and aren't spending it developing juniors etc, I'd be very disappointed. Get it's all goona take while to bear fruit.
 
Giant Strides said:
Well, need to strike a balance. Yes, need to invest in the club, but also need to show business sense and get to an operating profit. Think this is probably reasonable balance.
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Dont get that. Why does a not profit orgainsation want s surplus? Certainly dont want a deficit but the ideal situation is all the available money is spent productively for the purpose it was intended surely?
 
Wampeter said:
Dont get that. Why does a not profit orgainsation want s surplus? Certainly dont want a deficit but the ideal situation is all the available money is spent productively for the purpose it was intended surely?
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Because at some point there will be a deficit and if you haven't stashed away some of those surpluses you're setting yourself up for failure and debt.
 
dlanod said:
Because at some point there will be a deficit and if you haven't stashed away some of those surpluses you're setting yourself up for failure and debt.
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I dont agree but it may be perception. I was in public health administration for a decade and it probably colours my view. One of the most frustrating things is the assumption everything comes back to running a McDonalds and it just doesn't.
Specifically in Health not spending all the available funds when people are waiting in pain for a hip replacement for example is criminal in my view. This view wasn't nearly as common as I think it should be, and it still pisses me off. Hence I'm a bit sensitive on the topic

For our club there will will always be more demand for funds than funds available, thats common sense. It doesn't follow logically to me having s surplus is gòod.

I have had a look at the trust deed for the Giants but not enough of the detail to even know if supluses can be carried forward and under what conditions.Not even sure if these details are published.
 
Wampeter said:
I dont agree but it may be perception. I was in public health administration for a decade and it probably colours my view. One of the most frustrating things is the assumption everything comes back to running a McDonalds and it just doesn't.
Specifically in Health not spending all the available funds when people are waiting in pain for a hip replacement for example is criminal in my view. This view wasn't nearly as common as I think it should be, and it still pisses me off. Hence I'm a bit sensitive on the topic

For our club there will will always be more demand for funds than funds available, thats common sense. It doesn't follow logically to me having s surplus is gòod.

I have had a look at the trust deed for the Giants but not enough of the detail to even know if supluses can be carried forward and under what conditions.Not even sure if these details are published.
Click to expand...

Health is a hell of a lot different from a football club, almost to the point of irrelevance.

Obviously I also follow the Brisbane Lions. That team is significantly in debt because it has been running large deficits for a number of years. However prior to that it had actually been running surpluses for numerous years. If that money had been stashed away sensibly (it was substantially in stocks in the lead up to the financial crisis) the Lions would have less debt, lower deficits due to smaller debt payments which also means less debt, and less ongoing issues with having to go cap in hand to the AFL.

GWS is in a cyclical market. At some point we will slip and the gloss will come off and we'll look fondly at the surpluses. At that point I hope we have the nous to have stashed away a nest egg from these good years because otherwise going into debt, at least for a football club, is a vicious cycle.
 
dlanod said:
Health is a hell of a lot different from a football club, almost to the point of irrelevance.

Obviously I also follow the Brisbane Lions. That team is significantly in debt because it has been running large deficits for a number of years. However prior to that it had actually been running surpluses for numerous years. If that money had been stashed away sensibly (it was substantially in stocks in the lead up to the financial crisis) the Lions would have less debt, lower deficits due to smaller debt payments which also means less debt, and less ongoing issues with having to go cap in hand to the AFL.

GWS is in a cyclical market. At some point we will slip and the gloss will come off and we'll look fondly at the surpluses. At that point I hope we have the nous to have stashed away a nest egg from these good years because otherwise going into debt, at least for a football club, is a vicious cycle.
Click to expand...
It is very different, but I dont beleive the principle is irrelevant.
I do the get the prudent financial management requirement. I'm not sure how the Lions are structured but I dont beleive it is the same as our structure. I know the Suns is completely different with a private consortium running it.
There will be hard times in the future no doubt, but one response is to go very hard to build the club silo it is as robust as possible when they come.
It may be the Giants can squirrell away money, but to me it's not certain and I dont know it for a fact, I will accept it if you say so.
Fundamentally though the funding is to provide services in running the club and develop the game. Not using all the resources available is not going as hard as you can. Specifically I would make the following points:-

1. There is no "right" amount of expenditure. Certainly operating debt needs to be avoided like the plague, it's selling the future. Conversely every opportunity that can be funded should be. There's no easy out, the club needs to manage expenditure carefully and competently to match available resources

2. And this is where I believe the parrallel with public health exists. The end game of squirrelling away money is simply not to provide services, it is just a bit more obscure when talking about a small percentage of expenditure.

It is just my view, I get the logic of what you said. I think it's natural and may even be prudent to err on the side of avoiding bankrupcy, and have some reserve. Have I mentioned I'm not a herd animal?
 
Annual Report has been released and shows a half million comprehensive loss.
You can read it here: http://footyindustry.com/files/2016 Reports/GWS 2016 Annual Report.pdf

GWS compares like this

Consolidated Profit/Loss
  • Hawthorn – $4,660,824
  • Geelong – $2,255,116
  • Western Bulldogs – $1,773,234
  • St Kilda – $1,107,311
  • Melbourne – $720,218
  • Fremantle – $525,643
  • North Melbourne – $83,039
  • Sydney – $53,224
  • Port Adelaide – $14,840
  • Richmond – ($80,257)
  • GWS – ($493,197)
  • Carlton ($769,265)
  • Brisbane – ($1,783,506)
  • Collingwood – ($2,622,623)
  • Essendon – ($9,825,37)
Revenue

  • Collingwood – $71,475,457
  • Hawthorn – $69,779,234
  • Geelong – $54,650,813
  • Carlton – $ 54,390,069
  • Essendon – $53,499, 545
  • Port Adelaide – $52,768,461
  • Fremantle – $50,152,735
  • Sydney – $49,073,185
  • Brisbane – $48,707,494
  • Western Bulldogs – $48,417,018
  • Melbourne – $47,552,639
  • Richmond – $47,538,233
  • St Kilda – $39,928,568
  • North Melbourne – $38,548,700
  • GWS – $37,602,505
Revenue without Pokies/Hospitality

  • Hawthorn – $51,440,437
  • Fremantle – $50,152,735
  • Collingwood – $49,819,159
  • Geelong – $45,590,438
  • Western Bulldogs – $41,723,167
  • Richmond – $40,320,387
  • Essendon – $39,959,539
  • North Melbourne – $38,548,700
  • GWS – $37,602,505
  • Carlton – $36,440,868
  • Melbourne – $35,359,354
  • Brisbane – $33,514,529
  • St Kilda – $37,859,436
AFL Revenue

  • GWS – $21,148,488
  • St Kilda – $17,125,673 (shown as AFL distributions and “other” income)
  • Brisbane – $16,753,407
  • Western Bulldogs – $15,068,488 (includes 1.2 mill prize money, 3.8m future fund)
  • North Melbourne – $13,803,488
  • Sydney – $12,940,423
  • Melbourne – $12,758,742
  • Richmond – $10,478,488
  • Carlton – $ 10,238,834
  • Essendon – $9,824,470
  • Hawthorn – $9,788,488
  • Fremantle – $9,713,488
  • Geelong – $9,512,533
  • Collingwood – $8,888,484

Membership Revenue
  • Collingwood – $22,565,759 (includes matchday)
  • Fremantle – $16,465,873
  • Sydney – $15,432,368 (includes matchday)
  • Geelong – $14,341,800 (includes gate reciepts)
  • Hawthorn – $12,422,423
  • Essendon – $10,100,110
  • Carlton – $ 8,618,194
  • North Melbourne – $7,263,161
  • Melbourne – $7,578,057 (includes fundraising)
  • St Kilda – $6,646,174
  • Western Bulldogs – $6,412,414
  • Brisbane – $5,602,557 (includes Gate reciepts)
  • GWS – $1,258,993 (includes merchandise)

Membership Revenue per Member
  • Fremantle – $317.24
  • Geelong – $274.77 (includes gate reciepts)
  • Brisbane – $240.59 (includes gate reciepts)
  • Melbourne – $193.58 (includes fundraising)
  • Essendon – $175.67
  • st Kilda – $174.44
  • Cartlon – $171.92
  • Hawthorn – $164.86
  • North – $160.98
  • Western Bulldogs – $159.99
  • GWS – $82.19 (includes merchandise)

Sponsorship Revenue
  • Sydney – $18,566,389
  • Collingwood – $17,024,436
  • Geelong – $16,079,494 (includes fundraising)
  • Hawthorn – $14,947,662
  • Carlton – $13,623,204
  • Essendon – $12 ,493 ,197
  • Richmond – $10,575,059
  • GWS – $9,984,172
  • Western Bulldogs – $9,684,219
  • Brisbane – $9,599,634
  • Melbourne – $8,916,023
  • North Melbourne – $8,559,657
  • Fremantle – $5,885,937
  • St Kilda – $5,838,157
Pokies and Hospitality Revenue

  • Collingwood – $21,656,298
  • Hawthorn – $18,338,797
  • Carlton – $ 17,949,201
  • Brisbane – $15,192,965
  • Essendon – $13,540,006
  • Melbourne – $12,193,285
  • Geelong – $9,060,375
  • Richmond – $7,217,846
  • St Kilda – $2,069,132
Pokies and Hospitality Profit

  • Collingwood – $5,501,431
  • Brisbane – $4,207,183
  • Melbourne – $3,620,569
  • Carlton – $2,760,309
  • Essendon – $2,456,768
  • Western Bulldogs – $1,655,519
Gate Reciepts and Match Returns

  • Melbourne – $4,592,047
  • Hawthorn – $4,372,640
  • North Melbourne – $2,265,583
  • Western Bulldogs – $2,109,250
  • GWS - $1,962,065
  • Carlton – $1,909,420
  • Fremantle – $1,645,873
  • St Kilda – $1,623,290
  • Essendon – $216 , 850

Merchandise

  • Hawthorn – $4,020,932
  • Western Bulldogs – $2,659,877
  • Essendon – $2,268,964
  • Fremantle – $1,898,542
  • North Melbourne – $1,764,335
  • Geelong – $1,742,436
  • Carlton – $ 1,093,580
  • Melbourne – $986,269
  • Brisbane – $817,849
  • St Kilda – $791,796
  • Sydney – $596,405

Football Department Spend

  • Sydney – $25,023,140
  • Fremantle – $23,670,746
  • GWS – $23,612,985
  • Geelong – $23,172,565
  • Essendon – $22,981,249
  • Collingwood – $22,959,708
  • Richmond – $22,794,109
  • Western Bulldogs – $22,734,238
  • Port Adelaide – $22,601,361
  • North Melbourne – $22,337,950
  • Brisbane – $22,236,384
  • Melbourne – $21,927,456
  • Carlton – $ 21,598,464
  • St Kilda – $20,724,493
  • Hawthorn – Not completely defined.

AFL Equalisation Levy
  • Collingwood – $1,405,904
  • Hawthorn – $1,301,588
  • Geelong – $390,000
  • Essendon – $350,004
Assets
  • Hawthorn – $62,414,117
  • Collingwood – $52,857,370
  • Essendon – $47, 817, 356
  • Western Bulldogs – $42,108,053
  • Geelong – $35,036,809
  • Richmond – $29,521,323
  • Fremantle – $28,770,795
  • Carlton – $24,691,073
  • Melbourne – $17,484,015
  • North Melbourne – $15,911,962
  • GWS – $14,861,516
  • St Kilda – $14,160,615
  • Sydney – $9,287,014
  • Brisbane – $8,195,809
Liabilities
  • Geelong – $25,105,827
  • Hawthorn – $20,814,863
  • Essendon – $20,363,757
  • Brisbane – $19,067,673
  • Collingwood – $17,546,328
  • Carlton – $16,550,678
  • Fremantle – $16,285,071
  • Western Bulldogs – $16,040,904
  • St Kilda – $14,795,190
  • Melbourne – $12,644,379
  • Sydney – $7,201,195
  • North Melbourne – $6,164,116
  • Richmond – $5,430,252
  • GWS – $4,014,532
Equity
  • Hawthorn – $41,559,254
  • Collingwood – $35,311,042
  • Essendon – $27,453 , 599
  • Western Bulldogs – $26,067,149
  • Richmond – $24,091,071
  • Fremantle – $12,485,724
  • GWS – $10,846,984
  • Geelong – $9,930,982
  • North Melbourne – $9,747,846
  • Carlton – $8,140,395
  • Melbourne – $4,839,636
  • Sydney – $2,085,819
  • St Kilda – ($634,575)
  • Brisbane – ($10,871,864)
 
Last edited:
The_Wookie said:
Annual Report has been released and shows a half million comprehensive loss.
You can read it here: http://footyindustry.com/files/2016 Reports/GWS 2016 Annual Report.pdf

GWS compares like this

Consolidated Profit/Loss
  • Hawthorn – $4,660,824
  • Geelong – $2,255,116
  • Western Bulldogs – $1,773,234
  • St Kilda – $1,107,311
  • Melbourne – $720,218
  • Fremantle – $525,643
  • North Melbourne – $83,039
  • Sydney – $53,224
  • Port Adelaide – $14,840
  • Richmond – ($80,257)
  • GWS – ($493,197)
  • Carlton ($769,265)
  • Brisbane – ($1,783,506)
  • Collingwood – ($2,622,623)
  • Essendon – ($9,825,37)
Revenue

  • Collingwood – $71,475,457
  • Hawthorn – $69,779,234
  • Geelong – $54,650,813
  • Carlton – $ 54,390,069
  • Essendon – $53,499, 545
  • Port Adelaide – $52,768,461
  • Fremantle – $50,152,735
  • Sydney – $49,073,185
  • Brisbane – $48,707,494
  • Western Bulldogs – $48,417,018
  • Melbourne – $47,552,639
  • Richmond – $47,538,233
  • St Kilda – $39,928,568
  • North Melbourne – $38,548,700
  • GWS – $37,602,505
Revenue without Pokies/Hospitality

  • Hawthorn – $51,440,437
  • Fremantle – $50,152,735
  • Collingwood – $49,819,159
  • Geelong – $45,590,438
  • Western Bulldogs – $41,723,167
  • Richmond – $40,320,387
  • Essendon – $39,959,539
  • North Melbourne – $38,548,700
  • GWS – $37,602,505
  • Carlton – $36,440,868
  • Melbourne – $35,359,354
  • Brisbane – $33,514,529
  • St Kilda – $37,859,436
AFL Revenue

  • GWS – $23,110,553 (includes match reciepts)
  • St Kilda – $17,125,673 (shown as AFL distributions and “other” income)
  • Brisbane – $16,753,407
  • Western Bulldogs – $15,068,488 (includes 1.2 mill prize money, 3.8m future fund)
  • North Melbourne – $13,803,488
  • Sydney – $12,940,423
  • Melbourne – $12,758,742
  • Richmond – $10,478,488
  • Carlton – $ 10,238,834
  • Essendon – $9,824,470
  • Hawthorn – $9,788,488
  • Fremantle – $9,713,488
  • Geelong – $9,512,533
  • Collingwood – $8,888,484

Membership Revenue
  • Collingwood – $22,565,759 (includes matchday)
  • Fremantle – $16,465,873
  • Sydney – $15,432,368 (includes matchday)
  • Geelong – $14,341,800 (includes gate reciepts)
  • Hawthorn – $12,422,423
  • Essendon – $10,100,110
  • Carlton – $ 8,618,194
  • North Melbourne – $7,263,161
  • Melbourne – $7,578,057 (includes fundraising)
  • St Kilda – $6,646,174
  • Western Bulldogs – $6,412,414
  • Brisbane – $5,602,557 (includes Gate reciepts)
  • GWS – $1,258,993 (includes merchandise)

Membership Revenue per Member
  • Fremantle – $317.24
  • Geelong – $274.77 (includes gate reciepts)
  • Brisbane – $240.59 (includes gate reciepts)
  • Melbourne – $193.58 (includes fundraising)
  • Essendon – $175.67
  • st Kilda – $174.44
  • Cartlon – $171.92
  • Hawthorn – $164.86
  • North – $160.98
  • Western Bulldogs – $159.99
  • GWS – $82.19 (includes merchandise)

Sponsorship Revenue
  • Sydney – $18,566,389
  • Collingwood – $17,024,436
  • Geelong – $16,079,494 (includes fundraising)
  • Hawthorn – $14,947,662
  • Carlton – $13,623,204
  • Essendon – $12 ,493 ,197
  • Richmond – $10,575,059
  • GWS – $9,984,172
  • Western Bulldogs – $9,684,219
  • Brisbane – $9,599,634
  • Melbourne – $8,916,023
  • North Melbourne – $8,559,657
  • Fremantle – $5,885,937
  • St Kilda – $5,838,157
Pokies and Hospitality Revenue

  • Collingwood – $21,656,298
  • Hawthorn – $18,338,797
  • Carlton – $ 17,949,201
  • Brisbane – $15,192,965
  • Essendon – $13,540,006
  • Melbourne – $12,193,285
  • Geelong – $9,060,375
  • Richmond – $7,217,846
  • St Kilda – $2,069,132
Pokies and Hospitality Profit

  • Collingwood – $5,501,431
  • Brisbane – $4,207,183
  • Melbourne – $3,620,569
  • Carlton – $2,760,309
  • Essendon – $2,456,768
  • Western Bulldogs – $1,655,519
Gate Reciepts and Match Returns

  • Melbourne – $4,592,047
  • Hawthorn – $4,372,640
  • North Melbourne – $2,265,583
  • Western Bulldogs – $2,109,250
  • Carlton – $1,909,420
  • Fremantle – $1,645,873
  • St Kilda – $1,623,290
  • Essendon – $216 , 850

Merchandise

  • Hawthorn – $4,020,932
  • Western Bulldogs – $2,659,877
  • Essendon – $2,268,964
  • Fremantle – $1,898,542
  • North Melbourne – $1,764,335
  • Geelong – $1,742,436
  • Carlton – $ 1,093,580
  • Melbourne – $986,269
  • Brisbane – $817,849
  • St Kilda – $791,796
  • Sydney – $596,405

Football Department Spend

  • Sydney – $25,023,140
  • Fremantle – $23,670,746
  • GWS – $23,612,985
  • Geelong – $23,172,565
  • Essendon – $22,981,249
  • Collingwood – $22,959,708
  • Richmond – $22,794,109
  • Western Bulldogs – $22,734,238
  • Port Adelaide – $22,601,361
  • North Melbourne – $22,337,950
  • Brisbane – $22,236,384
  • Melbourne – $21,927,456
  • Carlton – $ 21,598,464
  • St Kilda – $20,724,493
  • Hawthorn – Not completely defined.

AFL Equalisation Levy
  • Collingwood – $1,405,904
  • Hawthorn – $1,301,588
  • Geelong – $390,000
  • Essendon – $350,004
Assets
  • Hawthorn – $62,414,117
  • Collingwood – $52,857,370
  • Essendon – $47, 817, 356
  • Western Bulldogs – $42,108,053
  • Geelong – $35,036,809
  • Richmond – $29,521,323
  • Fremantle – $28,770,795
  • Carlton – $24,691,073
  • Melbourne – $17,484,015
  • North Melbourne – $15,911,962
  • GWS – $14,861,516
  • St Kilda – $14,160,615
  • Sydney – $9,287,014
  • Brisbane – $8,195,809
Liabilities
  • Geelong – $25,105,827
  • Hawthorn – $20,814,863
  • Essendon – $20,363,757
  • Brisbane – $19,067,673
  • Collingwood – $17,546,328
  • Carlton – $16,550,678
  • Fremantle – $16,285,071
  • Western Bulldogs – $16,040,904
  • St Kilda – $14,795,190
  • Melbourne – $12,644,379
  • Sydney – $7,201,195
  • North Melbourne – $6,164,116
  • Richmond – $5,430,252
  • GWS – $4,014,532
Equity
  • Hawthorn – $41,559,254
  • Collingwood – $35,311,042
  • Essendon – $27,453 , 599
  • Western Bulldogs – $26,067,149
  • Richmond – $24,091,071
  • Fremantle – $12,485,724
  • GWS – $10,846,984
  • Geelong – $9,930,982
  • North Melbourne – $9,747,846
  • Carlton – $8,140,395
  • Melbourne – $4,839,636
  • Sydney – $2,085,819
  • St Kilda – ($634,575)
  • Brisbane – ($10,871,864)
Click to expand...
Thanks for that Wook. Appreciated.


Edit. Assets is an interesting one. What do we own?
 
Last edited:

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General Giant said:
Umm ok. Didnt think that was "ours" per say.

Unless the AFL loan repayments is part of it.

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The way it usually works is that the club receives grants (or loans) from the various bodies to build and operate the facilities. In either case it's an asset of the club.
 
GWS_Tragic said:
Thanks The_Wookie. Overall, we seem to doing ok on a few fronts. Need to up membership income, including spend per head. Doing ok on sponsorship it seems now.
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Guessing it's three game membershios and Canberra members that drag the average revenue down. Might be no easy way to change in the short term. It does seem very low though.
Is part of the issue there's little point in paying for a reserved seat at Spotless becase there's ample room in GA anyway?
I do pay for one but I have a mild phobia about crowds and usually go alone. It's worth it to me to know my seat is there waiting, suspect that's not a popular view though.
 
GWS_Tragic said:
Thanks The_Wookie. Overall, we seem to doing ok on a few fronts. Need to up membership income, including spend per head. Doing ok on sponsorship it seems now.
Click to expand...

Gate receipts are actually better than I thought, approaching 2 million, while the average membership spend is somewhat less than a 3 game membership - especially when you factor in that the average spend includes the clubs merchandise revenue.

Conclusion from that is that people are going, but a lot are getting tickets at the gate, while 3 game memberships are likely to be highly prevalent - and not surprising given that not every game in Sydney is going to be desirable, as well as the split between Canberra and Spotless. Giants seem to be unique in that their membership revenue is far less than their gate reciepts.
 
The_Wookie said:
Gate receipts are actually better than I thought, approaching 2 million, while the average membership spend is somewhat less than a 3 game membership - especially when you factor in that the average spend includes the clubs merchandise revenue.

Conclusion from that is that people are going, but a lot are getting tickets at the gate, while 3 game memberships are likely to be highly prevalent - and not surprising given that not every game in Sydney is going to be desirable, as well as the split between Canberra and Spotless. Giants seem to be unique in that their membership revenue is far less than their gate reciepts.
Click to expand...
I think some of that might there's no tradition of memberships in Sydney. The NRL clubs have them these days but on the whole Sydney people dont budget memerships as a regular recurring expense like the car rego, as other states might.
BF giants community seems to a lot of AFL fans perhaps geographically challenged but crowds a large percentage of casual fans maybe.
 
The_Wookie said:
Gate receipts are actually better than I thought, approaching 2 million, while the average membership spend is somewhat less than a 3 game membership - especially when you factor in that the average spend includes the clubs merchandise revenue.

Conclusion from that is that people are going, but a lot are getting tickets at the gate, while 3 game memberships are likely to be highly prevalent - and not surprising given that not every game in Sydney is going to be desirable, as well as the split between Canberra and Spotless. Giants seem to be unique in that their membership revenue is far less than their gate reciepts.
Click to expand...

We also have a huge focus on junior members - that's going to drag the averages down in terms of membership revenue.
 
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