OT: US University Shootings

[cro_Magnum]

I will also give you an example that happened in Belgrade about a month ago. I read it in one of the serbian papers on line. A Chinese man who was suffering from bipolar disorder went on a rampage in the main mall in Belgrade one afternoon. He killed 3 people and seriously injured 12 others. His weapon of choice was knife. All this happened in a space of 30 minutes.

Knives:3 Guns:33

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Sadly, this type of tragedy has become topical again. And In Finland (not a country I'd associate with a murderous school rampage).

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22722667-2,00.html

Eight dead after Jokela High School Massacre YouTube post
By staff writers and wires
November 08, 2007 08:50am
Article from: Reuters

SEVEN students and a school principal have been killed by a pupil who opened fire with a handgun in a school in a small town in southern Finland hours after posting a video on YouTube predicting a massacre.

The gunman, 18-year-old Pekka-Eric Auvinen, later died in a Helsinki hospital. He had been taken there with a gunshot wound to the head after turning his weapon on himself during the shooting in Tuusula, 50km south of the capital.

Witnesses described chaos and panic as Auvinen shot dead his headmistress, five boys, two girls, and wounded a dozen others as they tried to flee the carnage.

"When we heard the shots we started breaking the windows and jumping," Franz Andersin, a 14-year-old student, said.

"I saw injured people lying in the corridor. We started to run and followed (the crowd) in panic. Everyone was trying to squeeze through a narrow door," another student, Miro Lukinmaa, told the Iltalehti newspaper.

article continues ...

 

[Dogga79]

One can only wonder at what was going through his head. Very sad indeed.

What I find interesting is that the first thing some people said when they were told of the school shootings wasnt one of remorse but to soapbox their opinions on guns.

I tend to agree that gun ownership should be made as hard as possible. I own a couple of rifles and i would be mortified if anyone was given a licence or had access to guns, who would be deemed unfit to do so. I was in favour of the buyback and am in support of the tough laws we have in Australia.

Just as a matter of interest where did this kid get the guns?

 

[KingsCrow]

One can only wonder at what was going through his head. Very sad indeed.

What I find interesting is that the first thing some people said when they were told of the school shootings wasnt one of remorse but to soapbox their opinions on guns.

I tend to agree that gun ownership should be made as hard as possible. I own a couple of rifles and i would be mortified if anyone was given a licence or had access to guns, who would be deemed unfit to do so. I was in favour of the buyback and am in support of the tough laws we have in Australia.

Just as a matter of interest where did this kid get the guns?

Apparently Finland has one of the highest gun ownership per capita in the world. So most likely he got it from his parents, if not bought it himself.

The thing with banning guns is it makes lunatic people, or people in a sudden fit of rage alot harder to have access to a weapon which can kill alot of people very fast. If they don't have access then they might calm down or do alot less damage with something else rather then a gun.

 

[NikkiNoo]

For those advocating restrictions on gun ownership and things like weapon amnesties etc read Night Watch by Terry Pratchett. Specifically this section;

Swing, though, started in the wrong place. He didn't look around, and watch and learn, and then say. This is how people are, how do we deal with it?' No, he sat and thought: This is how the people ought to be, how do we change them?' And that was a good enough thought for a priest but not for a copper because Swing's patient, pedantic way of operating had turned policing on its head.

There had been that Weapons Law, for a start. Weapons were involved in so many crimes that. Swing reasoned, reducing the number of weapons had to reduce the crime rate.

Vimes wondered if he'd sat up in bed in the middle of the night and hugged himself when he'd dreamed that one up. Confiscate all weapons, and crime would go down. It made sense. It would have worked, too, if only there had been enough coppers - say, three per citizen.

Amazingly, quite a few weapons were handed in. The flaw though, was one that had somehow managed to escape Swing' and it was this: criminals don't obey the law. It's more or less a requirement for the job. They had no particular interest in making the streets safer for anyone except themselves. And they couldn't believe what was happening. It was like Hogswatch every day.

Some citizens took the not unreasonable view that something had gone a bit askew if only naughty people were carrying arms. And they got arrested in large numbers. The average copper, when he's been kicked in the nadgers once too often and has reason to believe that his bosses don't much care, has an understandable tendency to prefer to arrest those people who won't instantly try to stab him, especially if they act a bit snotty and more expensive clothes than he personally can afford. The rate of arrests shot right up, and Swing had been very pleased about that.

Admittedly some of the arrests had been for possessing weaponry after dark, but quite a few had been for assaults on the Watch by irate citizens. That was Assault on a City Official, a very heinous and despicable crime and, as such, far more important than all these thefts that were going on everywhere.

It wasn’t that the city was lawless. It had plenty of laws. It just didn’t offer many opportunities not to break them. Swing didn’t seem to have grasped the idea that the system was supposed to take criminals and, in some rough and ready fashion, force them into becoming honest men. Instead he’d taken honest men and turned them into criminals. And the Watch, by and large, into just another gang.

It's this part that really resonated with me "criminals don't obey the law" and how true is that?

Oh and just replace Hogswatch with Christmas and it may make sense.

 

[KingsCrow]

There would be a hell of a lot less deaths/murders in America if they had tighter gun laws, and if it does stop a murder then its worth it. So thats my argument.

 

[Crow-mo]

The thing with banning guns is it makes lunatic people, or people in a sudden fit of rage alot harder to have access to a weapon which can kill alot of people very fast. If they don't have access then they might calm down or do alot less damage with something else rather then a gun.

that would be true, if there were any evidence that banning guns does actually restrict supply to those so motivated to acquire.

 

[Crow-mo]

The Swiss argument is often raised but fails on 2 points.

actually if you read your own points back, you'd see how they don't say what you think they do. the reason the swiss argument is often raised is that is a valid inconvenience for those who want to pretend incomplete and simple theories actually explain a complex issue

Switzerland has a large semi-civilian militia who are required to keep a firearm at home under lock and key and are by and large responsible trained people, and this boosts the overall gun ownership rate enormously.

so the largely responsible and trained people can safely handle the guns, and by extension those that aren't cannot - so tell me how this isn't a people issue again?

It's a totally different culture not based on the Wild West mentality. If all Americans in the US today were Swiss with Swiss culture and values, its unlikely their death by guns rate would be the highest in the world. The Swiss can largely be trusted with guns, the Americans can't.

once again you hint at a very wealthy, educated and affluent society (which it is), which strikes at issues of environment and influence on human character, not the base, immutable nature of human character itself.

Added to this is the the saying that guns don't kill, people do. That's true, but it's a lot easier to kill with a gun than a knife, and a lot lot easier to perform multiple massacres.

indeed, seems you actually do agree that it is a people issue.

This student in the US didn't have an illegal gun, he bought in a shop with a credit card. Hello.

true, but there is zero evidence that he could not have procured a gun by other means if he wanted or needed to. A guardian journalist bought a semi-automatic, 9mm hand gun in brixton (london) in less than 20 minutes 2 weeks ago - and wrote about it. If he could've bought it with a credit card, it wouldn't be a story, but he couldn't and his access was in now way hampered.

if you build an affluent society, with central core values, where people are vested in it's prosperity and opportunities for others - then gun control is not a big issue; if you have one rife with limited prospects, poor economic opportunity, a disenfranchised political voice, and little hope for change in the future, then gun control is a very big thing. clearly in the swiss vs us examples, the guns themselves are pretty much irrelevant.

 

[Crow-mo]

Even for someone notorious for turning numbers around to suit their argument, this is a pretty ridiculous point to use.

Switzerland - population 7,523,934. Almost no standing army, and compulsory gun ownership for military age males. So - the percentage of folks owning guns is unusually high - and, equally, it manages a low murder rate by having some of the world's strongest gun regulations.

Maybe it might be better to compare the US to Canada, considering they share a land mass.

In 2000, police in the United States reported 5.5 homicides for every 100,000 population - triple the Canadian rate of 1.8. About two-thirds of homicides in the United States involved a firearm, compared with one-third in Canada.

I can see why my numbers confuse you so easily