Cryptozoology Otway/Grampians/Blue Mountains Big Cat

[speedybundy]

There's been stories about Big Cat's roaming these areas and more for a while now, the Ballieu government even invested money to look into it from memory. Know two people from near the Otway's who claim to have seen them.

IF there is a big cat in one or more of these area's, most logical explanation for mine is that their just overgrown feral cats, or maybe even a feral cat that cross bred with a young panther that supposedly escaped from a travelling circus so the story goes. Not sure how plausible that one is though.

Worth mentioning also there are rumors that the DSE has evidence supporting that there was a small surviving population of marsupial lions in the Grampians, however since they supposedly went extinct over 46,000 years ago find this one tough to believe. But I guess nothings to far fetched to put into a conspiracy theory board

 

[Pie in the Sky]

Most sightings will be big feral cats, those suckers can get surprisingly big. I think it's entirely possible there might be a few pumas or panthers roaming around, escapees from circuses or private collections, but not sure they could form permanent breeding populations. By the way panthers are black leopards, they wouldn't be able to cross breed with feral cats successfully.

It would be awesome if there were surviving Thylacoleo or similar species, there's not a lot to support it though.

 

[BG32]

It's possible that there are pumas with articles showing the traveling zoos having their cats escape but the numbers will be very very slim and most of the "evidence" is just massive wild feral cats

 

[speedybundy]

Most sightings will be big feral cats, those suckers can get surprisingly big. I think it's entirely possible there might be a few pumas or panthers roaming around, escapees from circuses or private collections, but not sure they could form permanent breeding populations. By the way panthers are black leopards, they wouldn't be able to cross breed with feral cats successfully.

It would be awesome if there were surviving Thylacoleo or similar species, there's not a lot to support it though.

Good to know about the Leopard cross breeding thing, amazing how those rumors can spread without anyone picking up on stuff like that!

Yeah there are a few stories around that the USA when stationed at Inverleigh had a few with them that they let go, along with stories about travelling circus' etc. Also remembered the person I heard the DSE rumor from formerly worked for the federal government but can't remember what department, so more reliable then I first thought although still find it hard to believe.

 

[Chism]

Reports from the Gippsland area seem to surface every now and then to.

Most likely big feral cats but still hard to say and some farmers swear they are Black Panthers when they have cited them.

 

[Glacier]

Ok bring on the ridicule but ..
My old man saw a large cat run across the road and leap up the bank near the old cutting just Melbourne side of Bacchus Marsh ( the new highway avoids this bit now)
It was about 5am and scared the crap out of him
He was adamant it was a very large cat, complete with long tail
Having extensive travel experience in the USA , he was convinced it was a mountain lion
This was about 15 years back
He said it took the bank in about two paces

 

[speedybundy]

Was waiting for the stories to begin

Have family from near Moddewarre (bit north of Angelsea) that have heard stories from friends about cattle with bite and huge claw marks around there necks, think the photo's might even be circulating online somewhere after being published by the Geelong Advertiser. One even claims to have seen a calf up a tree, but in the 40 minutes it took to go home and get it camera it was gone.

 

[Jack Stevens]

Slightly off topic, but over the years there have been numerous sightings of Tasmanian tigers around where I live (north-eastern suburbs, lots of hills and trees). A friend of my parents, who's a pretty intelligent and straight guy, swears he saw one.

 

[speedybundy]

Slightly off topic, but over the years there have been numerous sightings of Tasmanian tigers around where I live (north-eastern suburbs, lots of hills and trees). A friend of my parents, who's a pretty intelligent and straight guy, swears he saw one.

Reckon I might start a new thread for Tassie Tigers, good topic

 

[croweater 41]

I live in the grampians area and there is always someone around with stories about a large cat or UFO sighting in the mountains. I will keep it on topic though.

I haven't seen one but an older bloke I know who works for parks victoria and he swears he has seen at least 3 (could be the same one 3 seperate occasions) even though I am very skeptical on the big cat theory.


I feel with the recent fires 06 and this year looking at the damage done there wouldn't be much surviving up there.

 

[speedybundy]

This is by far the most conclusive thing I've seen supporting the theory, and it comes from very near some family. Nervous times next time I'm there, this was taken from the Victorian DPI study into Big Cats

The Winchelsea faecal sample
In November 1991, a member of the public collected a large scat in the Winchelsea district and provided it to an officer of the Department of Natural Resources and Environment. This specimen was sent to Barbara Triggs, an expert in the analysis of scats and their contents. She described the scat as having a ‘particularly strong and unpleasant’ odour, ‘very similar to the odour of the faeces from the zoo black leopard’ [refers to a faecal sample from a melanistic Leopard then held at Melbourne Zoo provided for comparison by Dr Helen McCracken, a Melbourne Zoo veterinarian] and ‘stronger and more acrid than that of any wild dog scat I have examined’ [and Triggs has examined many hundreds of dog and fox scats].
Triggs was able to extract four black hairs from the Winchelsea scat that she believed belonged to the animal (rather than its prey) and had been ingested inadvertently while it groomed its fur. The structure of these hairs was examined microscopically using the methods of Brunner and Coman (1974), a technique in which Triggs is a national expert. These hairs were compared to hair samples from the Melbourne Zoo black Leopard and a Puma, also supplied by McCracken. Triggs concluded that two of the hairs from the Winchelsea scat had ‘very similar features’ to the hairs from the zoo Leopard. She concluded that ‘there was a possibility that the Winchelsea faeces were from a big cat such as a black leopard. However, there was not enough evidence to make a positive identification’ (B. Triggs in undated report to D. Cass held on DSE file FF /53/0014). A second faecal sample from Winchelsea was received by Triggs in December 1991 and more black hairs were extracted and analysed in the same manner. These hairs were sent to a second expert, Mr Hans Brunner, for a second opinion, without providing Brunner with any background information, i.e. a blind trial. Brunner’s opinion was that the hairs ‘were probably from a Cat, Felis catus.’ When told that the faeces were very large, had a very strong odour and were most unlikely to be from a feral or domestic cat, he replied that ‘a large, panther-like animal could not be excluded’.
The remaining hairs were stored in a sealed plastic bag until August 2000 when they were subjected to molecular analysis by Dr Stephen Frankenberg, Department of Zoology, La Trobe University. Frankenberg found that the region of mitochondrial DNA he tested was ‘identical to the corresponding published sequence from P. pardus [the Leopard] within the region of overlap, with the exception of one nucleotide at position 109.’ Frankenberg concluded that ‘the source of the Otway sample [actually from the Winchelsea district, a farming region north of the Otway Ranges] was P. pardus and that the single nucleotide difference at position 109 represents a sequence polymorphism within the species.’ (Frankenberg and Cass undated and unpublished draft report now placed on DSE file FF /53/0014).
This result seems not to have been formally conveyed to any Government Department and has not been publicised before this study. Frankenberg has personally conveyed that the decision not to publish was largely because the result could not be considered 100% reliable due to a small possibility of contamination (note that Triggs had leopard hairs in her workshop). Nevertheless, he thought that, when combined with the morphological evidence from the hairs, the result was quite likely to be real, since the PCR assay was designed to detect any species of cat (i.e. was not selective for leopard) and thus any contamination was unlikely to mask the detection of endogenous DNA in the scat sample (which was almost certainly felid from the morphological evidence).

 

[KGBeast]

Me and a mate saw it in 1999 on the side of the road between Clunes and Talbot. It was walking along parallel to the road. It's definitely a panther or puma.

 

[james brayshaw]

Mountain Lions in Australia would be awesome. I've heard stories about Megalania sightings by farmers as well which I find amusing.

 

[Pie in the Sky]

Mountain Lions in Australia would be awesome. I've heard stories about Megalania sightings by farmers as well which I find amusing.

Giant goannas would be pretty cool too, seems a bit unlikely though haha. How big are we talking? I've seen some big goannas.

 

[james brayshaw]

Giant goannas would be pretty cool too, seems a bit unlikely though haha. How big are we talking? I've seen some big goannas.

It would be amazing, but they grew as big as 7 metres long so if they were still around i'd say we'd definitely know about it.

 

[Zach Package]

most likely escaped circus animals for me, no way those are just overgrown ferals

 

[GH213]

Reports from the Gippsland area seem to surface every now and then to.

Most likely big feral cats but still hard to say and some farmers swear they are Black Panthers when they have cited them.

Used to live on a farm in Stockdale in the 90's with my grandmother. She always swore black and blue she had seen this big black cat on multiple occasions. She was convinced that was what was taking occassionally lambs/sheep ect. Myself and my grandfather gave her heaps for it telling her she was essentially bat shit crazy.

In 1999 all 3 of us were on the way back from going out to dinner in sale, would have been around 10-11pm. Turned into browns rd and about half way down, my grandma slammed on the brakes. There it went, belting accross the road. We had the spot and flood lights and highbeams on, on the 4wd, so the road was well lit. We definately saw the thing.

I get called delusional or mistaken by what i saw. But nothing that big, that black or that quick is native in aus.

Call me what yas want, i stand by what i saw ...

 

[Wallaby]

Why doesn't anybody who sees one of these have their phone with them these days? Take a photograph - put that up. Then we'll talk.

These myths have been around for centuries - in just about every country on earth that doesn't have their own big Cats. Google 'Surrey Puma', 'Black Forest Cats (in Germany)' etc.

Regarding the Victorian DPI study into Big Cats re the scats - here is the actual study.
http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/agricultu...-in-victoria-of-a-wild-population-of-big-cats

It's actually a good read. Some very interesting information. As pointed out, there are so much wildlife research being performed these days. We have discovered several new species of mammals in Victoria, and re-discovered a few bthat were thought extinct. Incredibly small numbers of tiny animals - sometimes only a few centimetres across. But we cant find a large animal weighing 100+ kilos.

The basic conclusion is 'Almost certainly not'. The best quote is 'One has to wonder why no ‘big cat’ has ever been detected in a formal wildlife survey, shot by a hunter or farmer, hit and killed by a vehicle, or why no skeletal remains have been found. These sources have yielded primary evidence of the existence of wild populations of 140 species of mammal in Victoria (Menkhorst 1995), some of which are highly secretive and difficult to observe – why no ‘big cats’?

 

[speedybundy]

Yeah that DPI is a fascinating read, really interesting stuff.

I question that there's a panther/puma out there, but there is definitely some form of very large cats, whether it's feral or what.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

I've personally seen one of the "big cat" when I was a kid.

Being from the city and young I never new about the myth of the cat so we can rule out any bias towards believing in the myth making confirmation bias.

We visited a relio in Lithgow (lived just outside town) my relio's place backed directly onto the Bush.

Late one arvo I saw a large black animal That ran on all fours and had a longish tail dart from one patch of scrub through open ground and into the tree line no I did not get a good look at the creature I only saw it for a few seconds and no I can't say I saw it clearly enough to attribute it to any animal family be it big cats or otherwise.

But it certainly wasn't some feral cat unless domestic cats reach sizes far larger then Im aware of This thing was big.

 

[Pie in the Sky]

Not saying anyone didn't see a panther, but feral cats can get very big. This cat was shot in Gippsland, the guy thought it was a panther but DNA tests showed it to be a plain old cat.

There's some forced perspective in the photo, but the tail was kept and judging from that it's a very big cat.

 

[van peebles]

I have definitely seen a HUGE black cat like animal in the Otways when living there on a remote property. I called it "like a panther" walking across one on my paddocks . Huge. Then heard some time later the stories re panthers. . And another person , expolice, saw a similar animal as well This was a few years ago. But I believe the stories of sightings . I saw one Did hear the stories re the Americans bringing them out Sometimes dairy cattle would be spooked for no visible reason

shot and trapped feral cats in the otways since 1960s
they are huge and weve actually shot a couple of them that were reported as giant black cats
which is probably a good description of them,they are ever so large,

 

[Sydney Bloods]

Not saying anyone didn't see a panther, but feral cats can get very big. This cat was shot in Gippsland, the guy thought it was a panther but DNA tests showed it to be a plain old cat.

There's some forced perspective in the photo, but the tail was kept and judging from that it's a very big cat.

I'm not saying one way or the other (although I doubt very much what ever this cat is its of the lepardus lineage) perhaps I should be more clear.

When people say feral cat they usually referring to wild domestic cats belonging to the p.catus line.

Now if these cats are just wild p.catus then it's astounding it's even more impressive then if they were actual Panthers.

First terrestrial dimorphism has occurred so rapidly and far beyond any other examples of p.catus that, that in itself is an incredible discovery.

Next we have the fact that it's occurring in opposite to what we expect, all previous examples of adaptation to regions show that animal species get larger and larger as climates get colder with polar regions producing the largest kinds.

This turns that on its head, Australia has very little in megafuna most prey species are very small fast moving and live in thick coverage additionally much of the country is very arid.

All push factors suggest a smaller cat able to get into deeper foliage and requiring less food should be more successful but yet giant understand GIANT p.catus are showing up.

The largest p.catus species in the world in fact an increase of 40 something percent of the next largest species as a minimum.

Personally I believe what's far more likely is something mundane neither a panther or a house cat on steroids simply that a previously unknown felis cat exists in the blue mountains (wether introduced or not) one that isn't far removed from the p.catus line (p.catus themselves are a species of felis cats) it is perhaps possible that this species is capable of breeding with some p.catus species and may show only a slight variation in DNA markers leading to incorrect labeling of it as a p.catus.

The reasons for this are:
1) little to no variation in coat feral cats show a great variety of coat colours most having motley coat with many different colours. Inversely the blue mountains cats are always referred to as black or dark Brown and it's coat is uniform no variation in colour.

2) the sheer size difference the largest domestic cat species can grow long and fat but they don't grow very tall even in the wild.
Even the savannah cat which is a cross species between various f.catus and other felis cats out of Africa doesn't come close to what people are seeing. The largest F1 versions only stand 38.5cm at the shoulders
Blue mountain cats are often reported at around 75cm's to extremes of 90cm's at the shoulders.
An increase of over 50% in some cases.

Such an increase would move p.catus from one of the smallest felis cats to the largest not to mention that even specialised breeding has not been able to produce such behemoths.

It is far more likely that it's an unidentified felis cat that's been incorrectly labeled a f.catus but even if it is a f.catus species then it's still a great discovery.

 

[Pie in the Sky]

I'm not saying one way or the other (although I doubt very much what ever this cat is its of the lepardus lineage) perhaps I should be more clear.

When people say feral cat they usually referring to wild domestic cats belonging to the p.catus line.

Now if these cats are just wild p.catus then it's astounding it's even more impressive then if they were actual Panthers.

First terrestrial dimorphism has occurred so rapidly and far beyond any other examples of p.catus that, that in itself is an incredible discovery.

Next we have the fact that it's occurring in opposite to what we expect, all previous examples of adaptation to regions show that animal species get larger and larger as climates get colder with polar regions producing the largest kinds.

This turns that on its head, Australia has very little in megafuna most prey species are very small fast moving and live in thick coverage additionally much of the country is very arid.

All push factors suggest a smaller cat able to get into deeper foliage and requiring less food should be more successful but yet giant understand GIANT p.catus are showing up.

The largest p.catus species in the world in fact an increase of 40 something percent of the next largest species as a minimum.

Personally I believe what's far more likely is something mundane neither a panther or a house cat on steroids simply that a previously unknown felis cat exists in the blue mountains (wether introduced or not) one that isn't far removed from the p.catus line (p.catus themselves are a species of felis cats) it is perhaps possible that this species is capable of breeding with some p.catus species and may show only a slight variation in DNA markers leading to incorrect labeling of it as a p.catus.

The reasons for this are:
1) little to no variation in coat feral cats show a great variety of coat colours most having motley coat with many different colours. Inversely the blue mountains cats are always referred to as black or dark Brown and it's coat is uniform no variation in colour.

2) the sheer size difference the largest domestic cat species can grow long and fat but they don't grow very tall even in the wild.
Even the savannah cat which is a cross species between various f.catus and other felis cats out of Africa doesn't come close to what people are seeing. The largest F1 versions only stand 38.5cm at the shoulders
Blue mountain cats are often reported at around 75cm's to extremes of 90cm's at the shoulders.
An increase of over 50% in some cases.

Such an increase would move p.catus from one of the smallest felis cats to the largest not to mention that even specialised breeding has not been able to produce such behemoths.

It is far more likely that it's an unidentified felis cat that's been incorrectly labeled a f.catus but even if it is a f.catus species then it's still a great discovery.

Good post. The photo of the big cat I posted may be exaggerated, the body was rathe conveniently disposed of and only the tail kept, no doubt it was a big cat, maybe not panther size though. I've wondered if maybe cats of some kind were somehow introduced to Australia earlier than European settlement, and the big black cats are a kind of super race that have had time to evolve into what they are now. Not sure that makes sense evolutionary either though. Agree whatever it is it's very interesting, whether it's a giant F. catus, a black leopard or a marsupial lion.

 

[BG32]

Not saying anyone didn't see a panther, but feral cats can get very big. This cat was shot in Gippsland, the guy thought it was a panther but DNA tests showed it to be a plain old cat.

There's some forced perspective in the photo, but the tail was kept and judging from that it's a very big cat.

it was only a kitten aswell