Our forward line is the problem!

[Knightmare]

Our forardline will be stronger. It was certainly our relative weak point in 2012. No doubt.

But Lynch is an upgrade on Dawes. Cloke should be better in 2013 after a relatively down season. Fasolo/Elliott/Sinclair all a year older and will be better. Kennedy will play some then we've got more quality mids rotating forward with Ball back in the team.

Hawthorn and probably West Coast with their new, healthy forwardline should be the more power forwardlines in the league but I think he can be in that top 5-6 this season as a forward group which is plenty good.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Of the newcomer utility types (Martin, Kennedy, Broomhead, Dwyer) they all seem to be players who can hit a target and weight their kicks fairly well. These type of mids tend to make good forwards or wings. I remember Beams' first season when he was playing a more peripheral role in the team he was quite an effective forward. His set shot kicking was dreadful but he was pretty good at scoring goals on the run from distance and was also (I think) number one in the league for hitting targets inside 50, an amazing stat for a guy in his first year.

You would hope that some of the names above that get game time would be able to play a similar role. Especially if they don't have the pressure of having to run through the middle and win their own ball, which Beams now has. Obviously one of the big concerns being identified here is our pretty woeful forward 50 entries. A bit more precision would be good.

 

[DaVe86]

Our forward line was a massive issue in 2012, but we lost 3 key players through injury (Krak, Macaffer and Didak) and Leigh Brown through retirement, and then lost the likes of Beams, Blair and Sidebottom into the midfield. New guys like Sinclair and Elliot were asked to do too much realistically.

A full squad will resolve a lot of the problems...as will a combination of Cloke and Lynch

 

[4#Didak#4]

Our forward line still does need a fair bit of work to get it settled & functioning again. I would imagine it will be a focus over the pre-season as last year it was very much broken, had no confidence, terrible conversion rates of inside 50s.

Cloke will improve on last year and hopefully play further up the ground as more a true CHF, this is where he plays his best footy, not parked deep forward. Lynch can be parked forward and leads up well, so this should suit Clokey.

Some injury free seasons from Didak & Krak will provide the x-factor we were missing last year. They both make things happen. I am hoping Fasolo can step up again next year, he provides some good balance & awesome footskills.

The third tall option is my big concern. I have always been of the opinion that you need a third marking option that drags the defence away from the key forwards. Macaffer can do this & has in the past. Goldsack was the man last year, but he is not strong enough overhead/one on one/on the lead for mine - but his defensive pressure & run is really handy. Paine is the other that may be OK in this role.

We have the tools to have a good forward line, but they have a loty of work to do to be able to start gelling together & being productive.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

Some pretty good analysis here. Hope the coaching staff are reading this thread. I reckon a breakout season from Paine and Josh Thomas (long awaited) would see us go a long way toward winning the flag.

 

[DWil6]

In Cloke, Paine and Q we have 3 very capable marking targets. If Q is competitive and Paine improves naturally, we just need the smalls up and about

 

[doppleganger]

An interesting bit of info is that at the completion of the 2012 H&A season Richmond had accumulated the 3rd most CD points, more than Sydney.
Collingwood accumulated the 8th most CD points in 2012.

Do CD points actually matter?

It is no surprise looking at our players classified as 'forwards' that we were soo far down according to CD points

In 2012, Blair was our highest ranked 'forward' with an avg of 88, Cloke the only other 'forward' over 80.

Beams, Sidey etc had the dual classification....but if listed as forwards we would have been higher.....does it mean anything??

CD list - Rioli, Whitecross, Breust as forwards only....they all avg over 80 is a guy like Whitecross anymore of a forward than Beams??

 

[HeavyPop]

We need better skills and ball movement. While Cloke is a great contested mark, we should be making space for him to lead into.

While I like having him take a mark up the field as a kind of link up player, he usually just turns and kicks blindly into our 50. If that is how they're going to play Cloke, then it would be nice to see one of our mids break off our half back line, stream through and get the hands off Cloke before hitting Lynch on the chest.

 

[Soul_Pie]

The way I see it, our forward line should consist of the three talls; Cloke, Lynch/resting ruckman and Paine and then Krak and Fasolo. Then there should be a rotation of midfielders, but most of all I'd love to see Swanny spend a large amount of time forward, he is more than capable of kicking a bag and is a difficult matchup.

We've drafted well for attacking players who can get the ball moving forward quickly, I think our forward line should be in fairly good shape next year. More than anything though, we really need the ball moving forward with a lot more fluency. That was a real problem for us in 2012.

Then there's also Didak and Macaffer to consider, it would be fantastic if one of those guys could get back into some good form.

 

[Dundalis]

I think speed plays a part in the disposal effectiveness. If you have quick players that can spread quickly they are more often going to be in positions where they can dispose of the footy under little to no pressure. Whereas with slower players it's more difficult under constant pressure, even with good footskills. It's also important to have intelligent runners who know which spots to run to get free.

I don't necessarily think Hawthorn have far superior footskills to us, but they definitely were quicker and spread better putting them in better positions to kick effectively. Also in 2010 I don't think we had a team that had any better footskills than we do in our 2012 side, but it sure looked that way, and it's because of how well we spread.

 

[Tbone McGraw]

There are 4 things that makes a good footballer imo.

The first is awareness or footy sense.

Second is skills, especially kicking skills as you can teach handball.

Third is speed. Speed of foot and speed of mind.

Fourth is mainly essential at the highest level and this is difference between good players and great players. Discipline.

Most afl players have at least two of these.

 

[The Sqawka]

The system is flawed and I would take no notice of it.

How can we rank #1 in the midfield and #14 in the forward? It's a disconnect that makes no sense and is the result of a system that takes into account individual players rather than team chemistry or any other team focussed attribute.

If our midfield is #1 in the league than that should mean that we give our forward line plenty of opportunity with high amounts of I50's, and high quality ball coming I50, which would result in our forward line also ranking in the upper echelon in the AFL. In 2012 that did not happen.

If we want a greater output from our forwards then we need to give them better opportunity, and I believe this will happen in 2013, with the acquisition of Young, Russel and our young recruits that can all use the ball really well.

So how about we look at the stats for 2012..

I50's - 52.3 per game (Ranked 10th in the AFL)
Points For - 2,123 in total (Ranked 9th in the AFL)

Summary - Our forward line were often crucified by the midfield ball usage and pace of ball movement, as well as limited I50's coming in high and all over the place. With what they were given the output of our forwards was not so bad at all. In 2013 I expect a our midfields to give our forwards much more quality ball which would see us rank much higher than the projected #14.

 

[noideaatall]

Knightmare I find Bucks **** offensive, wish you would get over it ...
Our forward line will look good when our mids are kicking goals. This whole thing about delivery - delivery will improve with reduced pressure - Ball on the inside - and when we stop the boundary creep. Cloke was tripled teamed way too much this season.

 

[Hagla]

Our forward line still does need a fair bit of work to get it settled & functioning again. I would imagine it will be a focus over the pre-season as last year it was very much broken, had no confidence, terrible conversion rates of inside 50s.

Cloke will improve on last year and hopefully play further up the ground as more a true CHF, this is where he plays his best footy, not parked deep forward. Lynch can be parked forward and leads up well, so this should suit Clokey.

Some injury free seasons from Didak & Krak will provide the x-factor we were missing last year. They both make things happen. I am hoping Fasolo can step up again next year, he provides some good balance & awesome footskills.

The third tall option is my big concern. I have always been of the opinion that you need a third marking option that drags the defence away from the key forwards. Macaffer can do this & has in the past. Goldsack was the man last year, but he is not strong enough overhead/one on one/on the lead for mine - but his defensive pressure & run is really handy. Paine is the other that may be OK in this role.

We have the tools to have a good forward line, but they have a loty of work to do to be able to start gelling together & being productive.

We needed a good leading target last year something shocking. I remember thinking so many times how stagnant our forward line looked with the ball moving forward. I'd say the lack of quality leads was the main reason we bombed it in so often. Although Cloke has excellent endurance, he tries to draw contact from his direct opponent when inside the 50m arc because he is so good one on one. That's fine considering he is such a great contested mark but we definitely need a few leading targets. I think a decent lead up forward would benefit just as much from Clokes style of play as he would from them taking defenders away.

I think Goldsack exceeded expectations in the third tall role in 2012. I didn't think that role would suit him before seeing what he was capable of. He's actually 193cm tall so if he can put on a few kilos over the pre season it might make him a little more forward than utility and allow him to become more than just third tall. I'd stick with him and allow him a chance to develop his game in the forward line. It would be a shame if Goldy kept getting squeezed out of positions his whole career, because he was never given time to specialize in one and make it his own. Also, there is only so long a player can continue to be that utility type before they wake up and realise they're Jarrad Waite, and still haven't fulfilled their "potential" by the age of 30.

 

[danielnajdek]

You just have to look at what Carltons forwardline was ranked to not pay notice of this crappy article.

 

[Karate Feel]

People are going to love Lynch when he takes a mark outside 50 and gives it a ride like the Rocca days.People are underestimating Lynch, he wasn't part of the Eagles future, he's angry,can bomb it, has presence and wants to play.With Cloke and Lynch up forward breaking packs open all we need are natural quick fall of the ball types.Krakuer is a natural but isn't the quickest, we need a Lewis Jetta type.Was hopin we picked up Josh Simpson but hey, can't have everything.In time i think Paine will be ok as a third tall option in the forward line.

 

[forwardflanker]

The way I see it, our forward line should consist of the three talls; Cloke, Lynch/resting ruckman and Paine and then Krak and Fasolo. Then there should be a rotation of midfielders, but most of all I'd love to see Swanny spend a large amount of time forward, he is more than capable of kicking a bag and is a difficult matchup.

We've drafted well for attacking players who can get the ball moving forward quickly, I think our forward line should be in fairly good shape next year. More than anything though, we really need the ball moving forward with a lot more fluency. That was a real problem for us in 2012.

Then there's also Didak and Macaffer to consider, it would be fantastic if one of those guys could get back into some good form.

Trading Dawes out without any ready made depth makes this pretty unlikely imo. Paine is still an unknown quantity at senior level and no certainty to start round one. Also, the apparent likelyhood of a 2-2 bench system may have swayed them to play a smaller forwardline.

We'll most likely have a set up with Cloke by himself + Lynch when he's not rucking, and then rely on one or two medium forwards as the other targets who create pressure, make space, and kick the odd goal -most likely McCaffer, Goldsack or Fasolo, and I'd really like to see Swan do this a bit too because he would be a nightmare match up in this role and we wouldn't lose that much from the midfield given our depth.

The fact we are going a bit smaller is going to make the midfielders and halfbacks footskills even more important this season. I can't see us making the top 4 if our kicking is anything like it was in 2012. Conversely if we can get it up to the level of Hawthorn or Sydney then we have as good a chance as any.

 

[forwardflanker]

I think speed plays a part in the disposal effectiveness. If you have quick players that can spread quickly they are more often going to be in positions where they can dispose of the footy under little to no pressure. Whereas with slower players it's more difficult under constant pressure, even with good footskills. It's also important to have intelligent runners who know which spots to run to get free.

I don't necessarily think Hawthorn have far superior footskills to us, but they definitely were quicker and spread better putting them in better positions to kick effectively. Also in 2010 I don't think we had a team that had any better footskills than we do in our 2012 side, but it sure looked that way, and it's because of how well we spread.

I think handball receives is one of the most important stats in football these days. If our midfield with Sydney's last year what they did a lot better was handball out of stoppages until they got a midfield runner who was under little pressure who could kick effectively to the forwards advantage. In the GF Sydney were crushed by Hawthorn in almost all the stats but it was the fact that they were able to get the ball to outside runner who could dispose efficiently that was the difference imo.

We were kind of the opposite to Sydney throughout 2012. Beams, Swan, Maxwell, Shaw, Wellingham etc all liked to blindly boot it under pressure far to much for my liking. Also it hurt that Ball missed the season who along with Pendlebury were probably the two best players at extracting the ball and setting things up by hand. Sidebottom was also disappointing in the second half of the season but he's a player who's ability to set things up in tight situations should be a big strength.


The fact is though, that most sides are playing a loose man in defence these days so when we just bomb to the forward blindly from stoppages it puts Cloke and the other forwards at a significant disadvantage. Where we fell away last season was that Hawthorn, Adelaide & Sydney bombed less, kicked to advantage and thus scored more efficiently. And that is a huge reason why we were only the 4th best side in 2012.

 

[rand corp]

Tall Fwds:

Trav will be there, leading hard, clunking them, firing in long shots and leaving most of us with our hearts in our mouths praying he has the straight kicking boots on this season.

Lynch will be a better forward than Dawes, how he goes as the pinch hit ruck will be interesting, has genuine ability in the ruck but had precious little chance to show it at WC. Can he still perform around the ground and at the stoppage? We certainly hope so.As a forward he has a great long lead, hold his marks out in front of him and is a good set shot.

Paine showed great promise as a third tall option and I really hope he can go on from his bright start.Can take a good contested mark, shows signs of elite reaction time in second and third efforts. Kicking whilst effective looks a bit iffy. Didn't have the tank in his first year.

Goldy had a solid year and will be given time there again, is a negating forward who can hold his own with a goal or two.

There is also the outside prospect that we might see a game or two from either Witts, Grundy, Keefe or even Hudson in a FP for a game or two - that would sure be interesting.

Small/medium Fwds:

Krak will be back and will pick up where he left off.

Fas will continue to get better although I think he is a mid being played as a HF Flanker, he has a great set shot and will kick goals.

I think Daisy, now fit again will spend more time up on a wing with the occasional foray forward. He will kick goals either way.

Here's hoping Dids can lift his tired body up for one final stanza, anywhere near his best will see him kicking goals.

Not sure where Caff is at but hope he can get back to his best and go on from there.

Swan, Pendles, Beams will all rotate through the forward line at times and all have shown they can kick a goal whilst there.

Steel could find himself spending more time forward of the ball this year and is a goal kicker.

Elliot, Mooney are the emerging kids most likely to break into the fwd line at the moment.


Delivery:

Young on the left wing will offer elite delivery into the fwd 50, a fit Jonno offers the same, Jordan Russell is supposed to have some claims at similar delivery into the forward line.

 

[mondayshero]

3 levels of excellence

A team:
Goldsack Cloke Thomas
Krakouer Lynch Blair

B team:
Macaffer Paine Didak
Fasolo Keeffe Elliott

C team:
Broomfield Gault Mooney
Kennedy Grundy Sinclair

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

I think handball receives is one of the most important stats in football these days. If our midfield with Sydney's last year what they did a lot better was handball out of stoppages until they got a midfield runner who was under little pressure who could kick effectively to the forwards advantage. In the GF Sydney were crushed by Hawthorn in almost all the stats but it was the fact that they were able to get the ball to outside runner who could dispose efficiently that was the difference imo.

We were kind of the opposite to Sydney throughout 2012. Beams, Swan, Maxwell, Shaw, Wellingham etc all liked to blindly boot it under pressure far to much for my liking. Also it hurt that Ball missed the season who along with Pendlebury were probably the two best players at extracting the ball and setting things up by hand. Sidebottom was also disappointing in the second half of the season but he's a player who's ability to set things up in tight situations should be a big strength.


The fact is though, that most sides are playing a loose man in defence these days so when we just bomb to the forward blindly from stoppages it puts Cloke and the other forwards at a significant disadvantage. Where we fell away last season was that Hawthorn, Adelaide & Sydney bombed less, kicked to advantage and thus scored more efficiently. And that is a huge reason why we were only the 4th best side in 2012.

I like your take on things ff. This really makes a lot of sense when you consider those games where we killed it in the possession count and the contested count and didn't win the game. I have been of the opinion that we need to get more inside grunt to improve that outside efficiency you refer to. But it was also very interesting to read Buck's interview with Rohan Connolly in today's Age. Clearly we are re-adjusting to get ahead on the strategies that will flow from the 2-2 bench and have specifically targetted players who can kick with penetration and hit targets more effectively. Dwyer, Martin, Kennedy and Broomhead all come with a background of being able to find targets.

What impressed me most when I saw Hawthorn last year was their ability, especially through Mitchell to release an outside runner who could spread and find space to deliver to a target - their forwards feasted on the lead. As you say, they were more efficient than us. Buck's stated in this interview the clear intention was to find players who could find space and hit targets. With a 2-2 bench I guess the more of these versatile types we have the better.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

I also think we should stop thinking of ourselves as a top 4 team this year. Normally on balance a side loses and wins an equal number of close games (decided by a goal or less). Freakishly this year we won every single close game (about 6 of them). I attribute that purely to the mental toughness of our senior players against younger opposition sides, but this will not necessarily be a given next year. With our pissweak percentage this year, if we'd lost a couple of those games we'd have been well down the ladder. When considering where we are at and how much we need to improve next year I think we should consider ourselves in 2012 as about a top 6-8 team because to be perfectly frank, that's what we deserve to be rated on performance, percentage and overall output. Our position was inflated by that ability to win close, pressure games, including the final against West Coast. Although we will get a boost from players returning from injury and some intelligent drafting, people should remember we were clearly beaten by Hawthorn, Sydney (and the Cheats) and have some real ground to make up. I reckon Buck's is well aware of this.

 

[wednesdaywarrior]

3 levels of excellence

A team:
Goldsack Cloke Thomas
Krakouer Lynch Blair

B team:
Macaffer Paine Didak
Fasolo Keeffe Elliott

C team:
Broomfield Gault Mooney
Kennedy Grundy Sinclair

I love it. I grew up in the tiny town of Broomfield. Can we keep calling him this?!

 

[mondayshero]

I love it. I grew up in the tiny town of Broomfield. Can we keep calling him this?!

If you build it.. he will come

 

[forwardflanker]

I like your take on things ff. This really makes a lot of sense when you consider those games where we killed it in the possession count and the contested count and didn't win the game. I have been of the opinion that we need to get more inside grunt to improve that outside efficiency you refer to. But it was also very interesting to read Buck's interview with Rohan Connolly in today's Age. Clearly we are re-adjusting to get ahead on the strategies that will flow from the 2-2 bench and have specifically targetted players who can kick with penetration and hit targets more effectively. Dwyer, Martin, Kennedy and Broomhead all come with a background of being able to find targets.

What impressed me most when I saw Hawthorn last year was their ability, especially through Mitchell to release an outside runner who could spread and find space to deliver to a target - their forwards feasted on the lead. As you say, they were more efficient than us. Buck's stated in this interview the clear intention was to find players who could find space and hit targets. With a 2-2 bench I guess the more of these versatile types we have the better.

Yeah I saw that article to and it was good to see that they were focusing on both inside ball and fast transition.

I think in the years that we revolutionized the press and forward pressure in 2010-11 the top sides have started to adapt pretty effectively to it. The press was all about forcing mistakes out of players under extreme pressure in their back half but it seems that in the last season or so the top sides have worked around around this by putting their best decision makers and kickers as running defenders. Bourgoyne is the example from Hawthorn that I'm thinking of, he is amazing under pressure and has elite disposal. He is probably, along with Mitchell, Hawthorns best clearance player but I think Clarkson prefers him in the back half because he makes so few mistakes under pressure and disposes of the ball extremely well. But Hawthorn also have Guerra, Suckling, Hodge (when his fit) all rotating of half back who are all good kicks and decision makers.

Hawthorn owned us last season because they kept their composure through the press and when the ball got over the top they had to many quality forwards and too much clear space for our defenders to have much of chance.