Permanency in key position posts

[Rancid_Beasties]

Look I'm an optimist but I have serious doubts over our continual chopping and changing of positions amongst the talls.

Instead of developing players in a certain position from day one we seem to be going for a bunch of versatile tall utilities. Name one team for which this has ever worked! Each team seems to have 1 or 2 of these types but we have 5-10!

Examples:

Pattison: Since he was drafted he has been touted as a CHF but has played almost every game as a utility/ruckman.
Polak: What is this guy?? Too short for a ruckman, too slow and unfit for a CHB or full back, too bad a kick for a forward...what to do?!?!? Surely the spare man in the backline would be better suited to a silky skilled relatively fit player with a decent mark like bowden.
Hughes: AA U18's CHF...but on his profile on the RFC website they say hes the next Gaspar!!!! Godhelp him! Many say hes too short to hold up CHF but hes roughly the same height as N.Riewoldt, Pavlich, Fevola and co so its really a cop out. In the seniors only ever seems to play deep in the pocket...needs a go further up at CHF because hes main tools are a great lead and a long accurate kick.
Schulz: He is a full forward plain and simple but he needs space, space that belongs to the Richo man. CHB? Hahaha I remember several times where he has been chopped to bits there because he simply doesnt have the stamina of a riewoldt or a pavlich or the pace of a buddy franklin.
Riewoldt: So hes a CHF at VFL level, has decent height, but apparently hunches so hes shorter than listed...and now hes a HFF. Why did we recruit a HFF? Sellar is tall enough to play ruck and is genuine KPP! Gahhhh i like the kids intensity and all but what was with this pick.
McGuane: When he was picked up it was all "the next richo!" and "great enthusiastic forward" and now its all "CHB" or "3rd man up in the backline". WTF?
Deledio: My opinion on his move up forward has drastically changed because I realised its just because Schulz and Hughes are now being trained as backmen and Riewoldt apparently isnt a key position player leaving us not 1 single developing KP forward. This move is a MASSIVE COP OUT!
Moore: Why is he still around?

I have severe worries for Rance (genuine KPP but the club says he has rebounding capabilities and may play as a HBF!! noooooooo), Putt (ruckman/forward/pocket...even this early he hasnt been given a focus), Gourdis (genuine forward but apparently is shorter than what you'd think and has also been touted as a backman because of his closing speed).

I personally think Richmond are too lazy/scared to fully train someone from day 1 as a certain position and so chop and change so they have the excuse "ohh he never really found his position" ala ray hall (who should always have been a wingman and nothing else!)

 

[RichosGuns]

Moore: Why is he still around?

I LOLed!

 

[TigerTank]

Look I'm an optimist but I have serious doubts over our continual chopping and changing of positions amongst the talls...

I personally think Richmond are too lazy/scared to fully train someone from day 1 as a certain position and so chop and change so they have the excuse "ohh he never really found his position" ala ray hall (who should always have been a wingman and nothing else!)

Examples:

Pattison: Should spend first 20 minutes of each quarter at full forward, the remaining 10 in the ruck to rest Simmonds. With Simmonds back from injury I have high hopes.
Polak: Great mark, reads the play well. Play him at CHB and stop wasting time trying to turn him into the forward he isn't.
Hughes: He's a CHF. If he isn't ready for CHF at AFL level yet, leave him at Coburg to learn the craft. If it takes five years but it happens, it's worth it.
Schulz: Losing patience. I agree his best position is full forward, but if he doesn't learn to be more mobile then his future is limited.
Riewoldt: Tall-mobile HFF is fine if you also have a decent CHF and FF. Not his fault, other have to lift.
McGuane: Coming along okay. Backman only.
Deledio: you said: "This move is a MASSIVE COP OUT!". I agree wholeheartedly!
Moore: "Why is he still around?" - takes nice hangers I guess.

You make some valid points. It's because Richmond is way too reactive, trying to plug holes instead of developing a plan to work over the longer term.

 

[Bojangles17]

Look I'm an optimist but I have serious doubts over our continual chopping and changing of positions amongst the talls.

Instead of developing players in a certain position from day one we seem to be going for a bunch of versatile tall utilities. Name one team for which this has ever worked! Each team seems to have 1 or 2 of these types but we have 5-10!

Examples:

Pattison: Since he was drafted he has been touted as a CHF but has played almost every game as a utility/ruckman.
Polak: What is this guy?? Too short for a ruckman, too slow and unfit for a CHB or full back, too bad a kick for a forward...what to do?!?!? Surely the spare man in the backline would be better suited to a silky skilled relatively fit player with a decent mark like bowden.
Hughes: AA U18's CHF...but on his profile on the RFC website they say hes the next Gaspar!!!! Godhelp him! Many say hes too short to hold up CHF but hes roughly the same height as N.Riewoldt, Pavlich, Fevola and co so its really a cop out. In the seniors only ever seems to play deep in the pocket...needs a go further up at CHF because hes main tools are a great lead and a long accurate kick.
Schulz: He is a full forward plain and simple but he needs space, space that belongs to the Richo man. CHB? Hahaha I remember several times where he has been chopped to bits there because he simply doesnt have the stamina of a riewoldt or a pavlich or the pace of a buddy franklin.
Riewoldt: So hes a CHF at VFL level, has decent height, but apparently hunches so hes shorter than listed...and now hes a HFF. Why did we recruit a HFF? Sellar is tall enough to play ruck and is genuine KPP! Gahhhh i like the kids intensity and all but what was with this pick.
McGuane: When he was picked up it was all "the next richo!" and "great enthusiastic forward" and now its all "CHB" or "3rd man up in the backline". WTF?
Deledio: My opinion on his move up forward has drastically changed because I realised its just because Schulz and Hughes are now being trained as backmen and Riewoldt apparently isnt a key position player leaving us not 1 single developing KP forward. This move is a MASSIVE COP OUT!
Moore: Why is he still around?

!)

a woirthy case RB, there are decent questions over most of these guys, all have shown talent , what most lack is generally separates the men from the boys...G&D in large doses...Hughes has a heap of talent...yet looks to be more comfortable in the Lounge surrounded by a posse of adoring females than with the likes of Lingy breathing down his neck..I could say the same thing for a heap of blokes, prob comes down to leadership that many of our youngsters dont seem to be prepared to bust a gut...Interesting there has been a changing of the guard...perhaps will be the catalyst

 

[Rayzorwire]

Good comments so far.

I guess a measure of how concerned we are about the above is that we spent 3 of 5 draft picks on talls this year (uncommon for us), plus listed Graham and rookied Sylvester and Cartledge.

Personally, I think the game has changed to the point where KP players are less important to success than they used to be. That's not to say they aren't important, just less so as time goes on.

Every year lately, there's as many, if not more topshelf KP players in the bottom-8 sides than the top-8 sides.

Reiwoldt, Gehrig, Brown, Pavlich, Lloyd, Fevola, Richo...none of them played finals, but the Kangaroos with arguably NO topshelf KP's made a prelim.

Neither grand finalist had what I describe as a topshelf key forward (arguably you could throw Mooney in, but last year was his first genuinely good season and he had the ball rammed down his throat all game by an often vastly superior midfield), but they both had exceptional years and found enough avenues to goal.

Most recent years the end of season ladder is far more a reflection of which teams have the best midfields, the least injury problems, and the fewest 'weak link' players in their regular best-22, than it is which sides have the 'gun' KP players.

Something to think about.

 

[Terry Tan]

Maybe it's got something to do with having dud coaches. Yes plural, the lot of them coaches are duds.

Fancy not being able to develop Deledio into a top notch midfielder, so they try to make him a forward.
Fancy having a team that never puts on any muscle.
Fancy not being able to develop a top 2nd ruckman.
Fancy not recruiting for KPP.
Fancy not having a specific game plan.
Fancy chopping & changing your game plan till all the players are confused.

For a long time I thought the players were the duds, and they certainly contribute. But last year I realised it was the coaches (read plural) that were the problem. This year will confirm it and it will be bye bye to the lot of 'em.

 

[Roachy8]

Past & present coaches have certainly spent a lot of time tinkering and chopping & changing the forward structure around.
This with Richo's larger than life profile in the forward half has probably stunted the development of a few of our prospects.
Agree with a couple of posters above that Sarge looks like a full forward & nothing else. (I can't see him playing at CHB like posted elsewhere) He reminds me a bit (note "a bit") like Fev and IMO will only succeed as a leading FF.
Cleve to me looks like a CHF only. Not everyone is going to develop into a Carey (thank God) or a J. Brown but when was the last time the Tigers had even a half decent CHF?
Let's establish someone there who at least provides some value rather than swinging the changes faster than Paris Hiltons undies.
IF Cleve spent 22 games at CHF in 2008, based on past numbers + very modest development he would probably average 10 - 14 possessions, 6 - 10 marks and kick around 40 goals. Is this resault really that bad?
Stop stuffing around with the spine so much!

 

[Delids]

One of the best posts of the years so far!

Could not agree more about our KPP. The zero structure in our KPP and lack of drafting in this area is sifting down to our game style. Sideways, backwards, outside and indecisive.

I really hope this year is not wasted for Lids as i can see him playing 3 positions in one game - key forward, midfield and half back.

I rate Brad Johnson highly from the Dogs i think he is a champion but i dont think the doggies will win a Flag with him as a Key Forward. You need tall strong bodied players to play Key Position -this is proven.

I hate when Andrew Raines plays on Key Forwards ie N Reiwolt etc.
Terry did this at the Doggies one day he put Rohan Smith on Robram in a semi final and it cost them the game. Terry also use to play Leon Cameron as CHB.

At this stage Thursfield is our only genuine Key Defender, i believe Rance could be a KPP but i think Terry will want him to play Back Flank.

 

[bigrayohall20]

To be honest i like having Moore, Mcguane and Thursfield in the backline. Along with the likes of Bowden, King, Mcmahon etc.
I like Thursfield back there for obvious reasons. Has kept O'Louglin to 1 goal and Riewoldt to 1 (i think). And for his first year back after a knee injury he has looked great.
Mcguane was a FF in U/18's but his height, pace and leap make him an ideal backman. Another couple of years and he could be anything.
Same goes for Moore. He showed at the end of last year he was starting to feel comfortable out there. If he can continue his form this year then he should stay there.
I dont see the need for Schulz and Hughes to be playing there. The only reason is depth. One of our senior guys go down then Schulz or Hughes can come straight in to a CHB position.

 

[Kyusss]

Maybe it's got something to do with having dud coaches. Yes plural, the lot of them coaches are duds.

Fancy not being able to develop Deledio into a top notch midfielder, so they try to make him a forward.
Fancy having a team that never puts on any muscle.
Fancy not being able to develop a top 2nd ruckman.
Fancy not recruiting for KPP.
Fancy not having a specific game plan.
Fancy chopping & changing your game plan till all the players are confused.

For a long time I thought the players were the duds, and they certainly contribute. But last year I realised it was the coaches (read plural) that were the problem. This year will confirm it and it will be bye bye to the lot of 'em.

Fancy u bagging the coach *yawnnnn*

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

Neither grand finalist had what I describe as a topshelf key forward (arguably you could throw Mooney in, but last year was his first genuinely good season and he had the ball rammed down his throat all game by an often vastly superior midfield), but they both had exceptional years and found enough avenues to goal.

Well Tredrea was once a top shelf key forward and mooney was a star last year. Then both teams had secondary good quality AFL level key forwards (at least they were last year) in Westhoff and Ablett.

Both sides also had star ruck divisions: Geelong had Ottens who was the best ruckman last year for my money and King is a former captain and was at his peak the best ruckman in the AFL. For Port, Lade has been one of the top 3 ruckmen every year for 5+ years and Brogan, when fit, is more than handy.

Then defensively, geelong had Egan, Scarlett and Milburn, 2 players that are genuine KP defense players and 1 that is a star utility type that can play tall or small. Port are fairly average down back however unless cornes plays CHB, in which case he is one of the best in the AFL.

Richmond however, have ALOT of maybes down back: schulz, hughes, tuck?!?, mcguane, moore, rance, polak, and only one probably in thursty. Up forward we seem to be only pushing Polak and Deledio as developing key forwards...both of whom were not drafted for that purpose. Then in the ruck we have a former utility CHF/CHB in simmo, a touted CHF in Patto, a "maybe serviceable in the future" tap ruckman in gus graham, a FP/FF/whatever tall skinny prospect in putt and a essendon reject in cartledge. Seriously...we need to set players in positions, let them know what they will be NOW before its too late. Get them used to playing in a settled forwardline/defensive half.

 

[goricho12]

Examples:

Pattison: Should spend first 20 minutes of each quarter at full forward, the remaining 10 in the ruck to rest Simmonds. With Simmonds back from injury I have high hopes.
Polak: Great mark, reads the play well. Play him at CHB and stop wasting time trying to turn him into the forward he isn't.
Hughes: He's a CHF. If he isn't ready for CHF at AFL level yet, leave him at Coburg to learn the craft. If it takes five years but it happens, it's worth it.
Schulz: Losing patience. I agree his best position is full forward, but if he doesn't learn to be more mobile then his future is limited.
Riewoldt: Tall-mobile HFF is fine if you also have a decent CHF and FF. Not his fault, other have to lift.
McGuane: Coming along okay. Backman only.
Deledio: you said: "This move is a MASSIVE COP OUT!". I agree wholeheartedly!
Moore: "Why is he still around?" - takes nice hangers I guess.

You make some valid points. It's because Richmond is way too reactive, trying to plug holes instead of developing a plan to work over the longer term.

Couldn`t agree more apart from Delidio. He gets the no.1 tag each week in the mid field and a player of his relative inexperience finds that hard to deal with. He`s better off getting a dozen possies and 4 goals up forward than a dozen possies and relatively ineffectual in the mid field.
Leave him up forward, the others; aside from browny and richo can`t do it, and let him slip under the radar of the opposing coaches for if and when he returns to the mid field.
Get a lift out of Raines and put him in instead of him running to the 2nd best forward each week and getting carved up due to a lack of height.
Or more importantly, get Collins in the side and he can save all our problems both up forward, down back and in the mid field

 

[richois god]

i reckon we persist with lids in the forwardline with him and hughes and schulz i think thats a young forwardline with lots of potential