Phil Carman

[Squeak]

Doesn't get talked about often when there are discussions of the greats of our game, probably because he didn't play 250+ games.

I'm not old enough to have seen him play, but my dad rates him as the best player he's seen.

So, for the old-timers, how good was Fabulous Phil Carman?

 

[Nic]

Yes, as another young'un (except my Dad doesn't say anything about Collingwood players past or present that could be considered complimentary) I'd also like to know.

 

[K9-54]

Originally posted by Squeak
So, for the old-timers, how good was Fabulous Phil Carman?

The real question should be "how good could he have been?"

Never once went to a game involving him thinking "how are we going to stop Carmen?"

 

[The Dutchman!]

As much as the term "Ol timer" makes my skin crawl at the grand old age of 33....

I only saw his career from 76-77 onward as a really small tacker - from memory he was a star, great spacial awareness on the field, huge leap - great disposal by hand and foot, and a solid shot for goal - but with two HUGE weakness: a microsecond of a fuse and none of G.William's amazing talent for stealth violence.

Cost him his spot in the 77 GF and probably the flag that year. There is a terrific bit of footage with him rising up for a pack mark at the G' - having the perfect sit and then - turning and decking a guy (can't remember who) mid leap - and forgeting about the mark - classic stuff.

Kinda like a cross between Paul Vanderhaar and David Rhys Jones.

Latter on in his career he came to Essendon (81 I think) and played really well for a season at the point we had finally begun our rise from the dead - we won 15 in a row that year and I'm pretty sure he contributed well but early in 82 he famously "accidently" headbutted an umpire whilst nodding vigourously - got 22 weeks I think - tryed to appeal all the way to the Privy Council (believe it or not)... but another classic Phil Carmen waste of massive ability...

I think the older Pie fans can add a fair bit more on this... he was pure class as a player though guys...

 

[Perty4]

Squeak

My old man is the same. He watched Grumpy Old Men tonight, his 2 fav players were on, Bobby Skilton and Fabulous Phil Carmen. He rates him as not only a favourite, but a champion too. What might have been for a bloke who probably cost Collingwood a Grand Final through an indiscretion on the field.

To get a proper response i think it should be asked in the Collingwood and Essendon Boards though. No doubt i can see the 'thug' responses from a mile away.

 

[Perty4]

he was pure class as a player though guys... [/B]

Absolutely no disputing that. Agree with everything youve said Dutchman. Seen many a video incorporating him and the talent he had at his disposal was breathtaking. The show tonight didnt really capture it as much, but it still showed some terrific highlights.

 

[LordLucifer]

Carmen was a player of immense talent & had that 'flair' that brought people through the turnstiles. However, his career was dogged by suspensions and controversy. Coaches claimed they had problems keeping him in check as he was a fiery character at times.

Probably never reached his full potential but on his day was capable of anything. Best described as a waste of talent maybe ??

 

[MGREG]

Originally posted by The Dutchman!
As much as the term "Ol timer" makes my skin crawl at the grand old age of 33....

I only saw his career from 76-77 onward as a really small tacker - from memory he was a star, great spacial awareness on the field, huge leap - great disposal by hand and foot, and a solid shot for goal - but with two HUGE weakness: a microsecond of a fuse and none of G.William's amazing talent for stealth violence.

Cost him his spot in the 77 GF and probably the flag that year. There is a terrific bit of footage with him rising up for a pack mark at the G' - having the perfect sit and then - turning and decking a guy (can't remember who) mid leap - and forgeting about the mark - classic stuff.

Kinda like a cross between Paul Vanderhaar and David Rhys Jones.

Latter on in his career he came to Essendon (81 I think) and played really well for a season at the point we had finally begun our rise from the dead - we won 15 in a row that year and I'm pretty sure he contributed well but early in 82 he famously "accidently" headbutted an umpire whilst nodding vigourously - got 22 weeks I think - tryed to appeal all the way to the Privy Council (believe it or not)... but another classic Phil Carmen waste of massive ability...

I think the older Pie fans can add a fair bit more on this... he was pure class as a player though guys...

NO Dutchman.

He was at Melbourne in 1979.
Went to Essendon in 1980 and hit the umpire in that year.
At Essendon in 81 and North in 82.

 

[fabulousphil]

He was my hero as a kid......... hence my user name............a sad childhood really (only joking) .......... I was a fanatical Collingwood supporter and lived through year after year of premiership heartbreak, still it toughened me for the real world, now i have seen the light and after a few years of detox and deprogramming was able to join the real world and break free, still barracking for Freo is not all its cracked up to be.

Phil Carman ........ bast .ard..... cost us/them a flag in 77

 

[macca23]

Phil Carman could have been anything but for a lack of self-control. as it was he was still very very good - in the upper echelon of his time.

He played for Norwood in the SANFL before going to Victoria, and I remember in one particular match at Norwood Oval against Port Adelaide he had a substantial difference of opinion with another hot-head in Bruce Light. Legend has it that not satisfied with their on-field antics, they met in the car-park next to the clubrooms after the game to decide the issue more positively. Legend also has it that Light belted the living suitcase out of Carman.

 

[Woodson]

Originally posted by fabulousphil
Phil Carman ........ bast .ard..... cost us/them a flag in 77

What did you expect when you hit the FRIAR (Micheal Tuck) ...deserved to miss the '77 GF

Balanced up things though coz North missed the brilliance of team skipper Keith Greig out injured for the season that year.

Didn't do anything outstanding in '82 with North. Blighty booted 103 to win Coleman medal and the Magical Krakouer Bros stole the show.

But thanx to Fabulous Phil, who coached Corey Jones at Sturt to identify him to North talent scouts.

 

[screech]

An excellent coach

 

[fabulousphil]

Originally posted by Woodson
What did you expect when you hit the FRIAR (Micheal Tuck) ...deserved to miss the '77 GF

Tuck bunged it on, there was nothing init really, Tuck was as tough as old boots....... although he did appear a bit fragile, he was a hard man to hurt.....

 

[The Dutchman!]

Fair enough MGREG! Must be older (and fogier) than I think...

 

[tribey]

Which season was it where Carman missed out on the Brownlow by 3 votes despite missing half the season with an injury?

 

[Docker_Brat]

Originally posted by screech
An excellent coach

Up to a point, the players lost respect for him in the end. He wasn't really a 'people person', which is a shame because I thought he was tactically pretty good.

<Rohan name dropper mode> He rang me one day when I was working nightshift and I was dead to the world when the phone rang. There's this booming voice on the other end "PHIL CARMAN HERE..." and I'm like "What the ****?".

 

[Mudholian]

Well if football is played above the shoulders he managed to look fabulous against enormous odds.

Recently coached Sturt and after some early improvement became increasingly frustrated. Ending up abusing players and assaulting his own supporters.

After another period of the trademark Sturt in-fighting , was replaced.

Sturt went on to win the 2002 Premiership while Carman coached Kyneton, fined for abusing the umpires. Alleged to have run onto the ground screaming abuse because Gisborne was spending too much time in a huddle.

Moral. Even Sturt can occasionally get one thing right, shame about Phil.

 

[Cyclops]

Originally posted by dyertribe
Which season was it where Carman missed out on the Brownlow by 3 votes despite missing half the season with an injury?

1976. Broke his foot playing for Victoria I think. His highlight that year was against the Saints: he came out after half-time in white boots (unheard in them days) and booted 9 goals for a tally of 11.

My old man (a Magpie supporter) and my 83-yr-old neighbour (a Roys/Brisbane man) both felt Carman was the absolute best player ever. They said his best footy left Farmer, Ablett, Whitten, Reynolds and Bunton for dead.

Unfortunately he was an absolute individualist. He trained like a maniac, but always alone. Hafey would be addressing the huddle and Carman would be bouncing the ball around the fringe completely ignoring him. He would out-mark his own team-mates who were in better position. So in the end he was a bit of a waste of talent.

 

[pazza]

Carman, on what I have seen of his play on video, may have been a genuine hot-head, but skill wise, was the equal of many playing at that time, if not better than most.

 

[tribey]

Originally posted by Cyclops
1976. Broke his foot playing for Victoria I think. His highlight that year was against the Saints: he came out after half-time in white boots (unheard in them days) and booted 9 goals for a tally of 11.

My old man (a Magpie supporter) and my 83-yr-old neighbour (a Roys/Brisbane man) both felt Carman was the absolute best player ever. They said his best footy left Farmer, Ablett, Whitten, Reynolds and Bunton for dead.

Unfortunately he was an absolute individualist. He trained like a maniac, but always alone. Hafey would be addressing the huddle and Carman would be bouncing the ball around the fringe completely ignoring him. He would out-mark his own team-mates who were in better position. So in the end he was a bit of a waste of talent.

Cheers mate, thanks

 

[skilts]

Saw him play what I think was his first game, against Fitzroy at the Junction. Think he kicked eight for the day. Extraordinarily talented footballer. Great kick, tremendous high mark and incredibly quick for a 194cm bloke. Mad as a March hare.

 

[rabs68]

He wasn't that tall was he?

I thought he was a classical Collingwood "six footer"

 

[MarkT]

The most talented player I have ever seen - Ablett and Carey included. Unfortunately he was a complete knob and worse. He managed to play at CHF, kick 5 to 10 goals regularly and take screamers whenever he felt like it while his team mates hated him and deliberately kicked the ball away from him. Imagine a player who dominates a game and no opponent can make any impact when his own team mates won't kick the ball to him. He had all the skills, moves and pace but none of the brains to be one of the best ever - if not the best. If you can picture a combination of Ablett and Hird at his best but also a mix of Robert Muir and Mark Jackson.

He shoulda won a brownlow but missed (I think) 8 matches after getting injurred playing in a State game. He kicked (I think) 8 or 11 first game back. My memory is a bit fuzzy on the numbers there so I stand to be corrected. I saw him take mark of the year and kick goal of the year in an 8 or 9 goal game at CHF in driving rain when others couldn't handle the ball or get out of first gear.

He was one of if not the first real professional in a training sence. He trained with pro runners, went to training two hours before the rest and by the time the rest were half way through the session he'd reckon he'd done enough.

I have heard him say recently that he wished he could have been a bit more flexible in his ways adn fitted in better. He said that would have made him play in a team rather than as an individual. He hnded up playing against his own team mates because of his attitude and how he was perceived.

 

[tribey]

Originally posted by MarkT
He shoulda won a brownlow but missed (I think) 8 matches after getting injurred playing in a State game. He kicked (I think) 8 or 11 first game back. My memory is a bit fuzzy on the numbers there so I stand to be corrected.

Scroll 5 posts up the page to cyclops...

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by dyertribe
Scroll 5 posts up the page to cyclops...

The one eyed man knows all.

Cheers.