Playing in different positions

[TheGreatBarryB]

Emma Quayle's article in Sunday's Age saying how some of our players have found that staying in one position (or same job) has helped their form e.g Monfries and Welsh.

Just a hypothetical and in no means having a go at Sheeds (i was a fan) but was his tactic of having players learn to play several positions really that big an advantage?

Yes we won the '84 GF when he changed a few players around, but maybe Hawks were tiring anyway.

We'll never know obviously but if you look at other sports, not many of them change players around. Soccer players pretty much specialise in one position as do basketballers, NFL players, baseballers etc.

And really not much clubs have done it now or in the past.

Did it cost us in the long term? Would some players have been better if just left to concentrate on one position?

Frankly I think it was all a wank. The only players that were successful were Harvey and Lucas. But at what cost?(especially with Lucas).

 

[Smyth94]

I don't agree with this at all.

The whole basis of modern AFL is based on players being able to play multiple roles/positions.

If anything Welsh would've been finished had he been not been able to successfully transform himself into a midfielder.

If you look at our drafting from 2005 onwards we have drafted many players who are extremely versatile (Ryder, Myers, Gumbleton, Houli, Reimers etc)

Knights in particular stresses the need for players to be able to play multiple roles within the team and I think this is a key factor in our current drafting philosophy.

 

[Longy413]

But haven't Welsh and Monfries only found positions by virtue of Knights playing them in different positions?

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

I'm talking more about established stars especially in key positions. e.g Terry Daniher, Lucas, Vanda playing CHB when they were star forwards. Playing Fletch up forward. It just doesn't pay off. Yes they play well in their new positions but not enough to justify what they could have done in their proper positions.

What was playing Lloyd in defence ever going to achieve? Scotty Lucas won a B&F playing at CHB but what exactly did we lose up forward?

You don't see Hawthorn playing Franklin or Roughead (he did initially)down back, or Crows playing Rutten up forward. Or Riewoldt, Scarlett, Glass etc.

Can understand the move with young players who have yet to find a spot like Ryder but once a player finds his niche, you play him there most of the time. Sheeds moved them too quickly and too often, especially when we were behind or the other team had a run on and just ensured we wouldn't come back.

Houli, Reimers etc are midfielders whether that be attacking of defensive midfielder.

Neither was drafted to ever play defence and hopefully they never will.

Plus Knights is giving the players a longer stay at certain positions e.g Myers to help find their niche.

 

[Longy413]

What was playing Lloyd in defence ever going to achieve? Scotty Lucas won a B&F playing at CHB but what exactly did we lose up forward?

Well given his year at CHB was the last time we actually threatened the top four, I'd say we didn't lose a whole lot.

Lloyd played in defense for a quarter and I'm sure it was designed to teach him a lesson. Knights has had him push behind the ball this season.

You don't see Hawthorn playing Franklin or Roughead (he did initially)down back, or Crows playing Rutten up forward. Or Riewoldt, Scarlett, Glass etc.

Riewoldt has played a fair bit of footy at CHB.
Rutten played down forward a few weeks ago for a bit and a few times last year. He was drafted as a forward and debuted as a forward, kicked a few on debut.

Can understand the move with young players who have yet to find a spot like Ryder but once a player finds his niche, you play him there most of the time. Sheeds moved them too quickly and too often

Sheedy found Ryder's niche and didn't move him from there any more than Knights has this year.

Houli, Reimers etc are midfielders whether that be attacking of defensive midfielder.

Not sure how much footy you watch, but both have played in defensive this year. Houli played a lot of footy at half back, Reimers played in the back pocket (on Milne among others).

Plus Knights is giving the players a longer stay at certain positions e.g Myers to help find their niche.

Lets face it, he's had no choice, he hasn't had the options to change things up because of injuries.

He's done well, but is he really doing a lot different to Sheedy in terms of player development? I don't think so.

 

[bomber69]

Fletcher had never played full back before Sheedy tried him there. He was drafted as a CHF/Ruckman.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Fletcher had never played full back before Sheedy tried him there. He was drafted as a CHF/Ruckman.

He was 17 so hadn't played much anywhere.

Well given his year at CHB was the last time we actually threatened the top four, I'd say we didn't lose a whole lot

Hardly was effective man-to-man. More a sweeper/QB role. How many goals did we miss out on?

Lloyd played in defense for a quarter and I'm sure it was designed to teach him a lesson. Knights has had him push behind the ball this season.

Not in defence though

Riewoldt has played a fair bit of footy at CHB.
Rutten played down forward a few weeks ago for a bit and a few times last year. He was drafted as a forward and debuted as a forward, kicked a few on debut.

And they were both crap. Again not talking about young players in their first or second season.

Sheedy found Ryder's niche and didn't move him from there any more than Knights has this year.

Ryder played more forward last year than this year, even when Lucas was out.

Not sure how much footy you watch, but both have played in defensive this year. Houli played a lot of footy at half back, Reimers played in the back pocket (on Milne among others).

Again young player. Houli played attacking HB (sans Heath Shaw). Neither he nor Reimers will ever be defenders (I hope)

He's done well, but is he really doing a lot different to Sheedy in terms of player development? I don't think so.

Maybe not, but not as many moves for the sake of moves which really add no value. Whole point of my post.

 

[Longy413]

He was 17 so hadn't played much anywhere.

What's your point? He wasn't drafted as a FB, like Reimers wasn't drafted as a defender. He played him there, it worked.

Hardly was effective man-to-man. More a sweeper/QB role. How many goals did we miss out on?

How many did he create?

Not in defence though

Um...playing behind the ball, is in defense.

And they were both crap. Again not talking about young players in their first or second season.

You introduced those players, not me.

Ryder played more forward last year than this year, even when Lucas was out.

No he didn't. And Sheedy moved him back, in a position he'd never played before, in a position he wasn't drafted to play. Something you don't want to see Knights do.

So you're critisising Sheedy for moving players around and praising Knights for not doing it, yet Knights is only reaping the awards in some cases for moves Sheedy made and in other cases he's only been able to settle players into one position by moving them out of position in the first place.

Again young player. Houli played attacking HB (sans Heath Shaw). Neither he nor Reimers will ever be defenders (I hope)

Isn't Heath Shaw a backman? A defender?
Doesn't he have an opponent? That's exactly what Houli did.

Reimers has on a few occassions this year played on the last line of defense.

Maybe not, but not as many moves for the sake of moves which really add no value. Whole point of my post.

But Knights does it to.
Fletcher to FF, Mal Michael to FF, Reimers to BP (he's also played wing, half back, half forward, full forward), Houli HB, Stanton HB HF and FF, Ryder CHB CHF and Ruck, Welsh played back and forward before he was found a role in the midfield.

You're praising Knights for not doing something he actually does.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

What's your point? He wasn't drafted as a FB, like Reimers wasn't drafted as a defender. He played him there, it worked.

Doesn't matter where tall players played as juniors. Quite a few end up playing other end of the ground when in AFL. Fletch (thankfully) played the majority at FB.

Knights will try Gumbleton up forward as hopefully he'll be our next CHF/FF but could easily be our CHB. If he becomes a star CHB that's where he should play all his games.

Um...playing behind the ball, is in defense.

has not played in defence this year.

Isn't Heath Shaw a backman? A defender?
Doesn't he have an opponent?

Shaw is an attcking HBF. Monfries was effectively a tagger playing up forward. Times change

But Knights does it to.
Fletcher to FF, Mal Michael to FF, Reimers to BP (he's also played wing, half back, half forward, full forward), Houli HB, Stanton HB HF and FF, Ryder CHB CHF and Ruck, Welsh played back and forward before he was found a role in the midfield.

You're praising Knights for not doing something he actually does.

These days players are dragged into positions by their opponents. Do you think Malthouse really wanted to play Thomas at FB on the weekend?
Mismatches. No one for Fletch to pick up so he moves temporarily.

In Sheeds' early days he moved players so they could add another string to their bow, hoping it would pay off. Weston and Duckworth to the forward line in '84 GF. Hey it worked but it was crazy, no real tactical basis behind it. It came off but I still reckon we would have won anyway.

Sometimes it worked but sometimes I think he pulled the trigger too early to the detriment of the team.

 

[Jörmungand]

has not played in defence this year.

Watch a lot of football do you?

 

[bomber69]

Knights will try Gumbleton up forward as hopefully he'll be our next CHF/FF but could easily be our CHB. If he becomes a star CHB that's where he should play all his games.


has not played in defence this year.

Gumbleton will only play CHB to learn the tricks of the trade as they say. Knights may put him on say Riewoldt for a quarter because that is a player he has been likened to very much. Against Sydney, he played Daniher and Myers on Goodes to help them learn, does that mean they are destined for a job as a tagger?

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Watch a lot of football do you?

The games that count. So which key position forward did Lloyd play on? Following your man into defence doesn't count.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Gumbleton will only play CHB to learn the tricks of the trade as they say. Knights may put him on say Riewoldt for a quarter because that is a player he has been likened to very much. Against Sydney, he played Daniher and Myers on Goodes to help them learn, does that mean they are destined for a job as a tagger?

Read what I said about young players.
If Gumby turns out eventually to be a gun CHF, that's where he'll play nearly all his games. Under Sheedy, especially in earlier days that may not have been the case.

 

[hugorune]

Good players play both offense & defense, wherever they are in the ground.
The fluidity of this sport, as well as the variety we have in our types of players, pretty much makes it necessary for players to be able to play everywhere on the ground, and getting matchups right is usually more important than putting a player in the position where he plays most of his games.

 

[Longy413]

Read what I said about young players.
If Gumby turns out eventually to be a gun CHF, that's where he'll play nearly all his games. Under Sheedy, especially in earlier days that may not have been the case.

You haven't given a single example of where this has happened.

I'll give you a few of where it hasn't.

Mark Harvey - Recruited as a forward, moved and settled into the backline and became an AA CHB.

Dustin Fletcher - Drafted as a ruckman, moved and settled and became an AA FB.

Gavin Wanganeen - Drafted as a midfielder/small forward and settled and became an AA and Brownlow Medalist BP.

Paddy Ryder - Drafted as a ruckman, settled at CHB and now looks a star.

Angus Monfries - Drafted as a midfielder, settled and now playing as a forward.

Henry Slattery - Drafted as midfielder, not settled as a defender/tagging mid.

Danny Jacobs - Drafted as a wingman, settled down back and was very good for us in a side that made a GF.

Dean Solomon - Drafted as a mid, became a Premiership defender.

Damien Hardwick - Turned into a Premiership defender and B&F winner. Started as a forward.



Matty Knights has been great for us, he's doing a great job and I'm a big fan of his work. But don't pretend for a second that he's doing a whole lot different in developing players into positions than Sheedy.

Sheedy took players, he settled them, some in positions they weren't drafted to play. He used others as utilities. Knights is no different to this.

There are examples under Knights already of players he has moved into different positions throughout the course of the season. There are examples of players he's taken from one position and into a position they weren't drafted to play and settled them there to good effect. Sheedy was no different.

And didn't Lloyd end up on Fev for part of a game this year?

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Once again, i'm not talking about new/young blokes. Who gives a shit where they played their junior footy. Any young tall that's drafted could end up back or forward. It's happened for years.

Once established and stars you don't move them as regularly as sheeds did. That's my point. TD, Vanda, Merrett, Lucas, Duckworth, Weston, Hird in defence etc.

Occassionally it worked but IMO it was to the detriment of the team. We did it too often and reacted too early.

As for Lloyd on Fev, I must have ducked out to the toilets at that point.

 

[Longy413]

Once again, i'm not talking about new/young blokes. Who gives a shit where they played their junior footy./QUOTE]

Clearly here you were...

Houli, Reimers etc are midfielders whether that be attacking of defensive midfielder.

This season Monfries has played in the backline, so has Reimers and Houli.
Ryder has played in the ruck and forward.
Fletcher has played full-forward.
Winderlich played full-forward.
The list goes on.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

Once again, i'm not talking about new/young blokes. Who gives a shit where they played their junior footy./QUOTE]

Clearly here you were...




This season Monfries has played in the backline, so has Reimers and Houli.
Ryder has played in the ruck and forward.
Fletcher has played full-forward.
Winderlich played full-forward.
The list goes on.

But Houli & Reimers are midfielders, not much option to play them anywhere else.

There's a big difference these days. Players get dragged down by their direct opponent to create mismatch. Knights playing Winderlich as a defender was a disaster. As I said, do you think Malthouse wanted Dale Thomas to play FB? A lot different when Sheeds did it regularly.

People here say Lloyd played in defence this year, simply because he drops back occassionally.

So do you think what Sheeds did was really that much of an advantage to us??

 

[Longy413]

You don't get it, do you?

Knights is doing it regularly.
Yes, I think a lot of what Sheeds did was an advantage to us.

Knights throws players around no less than what Sheedy did and there is plenty of evidence to proove it.

If you actually tried to work out exactly what it is your saying, you might see that.

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

You don't get it, do you?

Knights is doing it regularly.
Yes, I think a lot of what Sheeds did was an advantage to us.

Knights throws players around no less than what Sheedy did and there is plenty of evidence to proove it.

If you actually tried to work out exactly what it is your saying, you might see that.

You turned this into a Knights v sheedy. My first post was in regards to the days when Sheedy used to throw them around and was considered ground breaking at the time.

I'm stating that looking back I think a lot of it was a waste of time.

Today's football is different. But you look at the key players in each team and they're rarely moved. Geelong rarely does it.

When lloyd was struggling a few weeks back Sheeds would have had him in the back pocket!! Knights kept him as a forward (CHF). Too many times Sheeds would move them to defence etc. I'm saying looking back was it that great a tactic?

It's not that hard to understand is it?

 

[Longy413]

But you're saying Knights doesn't do it and he does do it.

You fail to recognise that.

Knights did send Lloyd down back. He played in the backline.
He played Winderlich in the backline.
He played Fletcher at Full-Forward.
Mal Michael has played forward.

Knights does it. Often.

I don't mind if you don't like it, that's fine. But you can't have a crack at Sheedy for doing it, without also having a crack at Knights, Knights does it as well.

 

[essendon2008]

But haven't Welsh and Monfries only found positions by virtue of Knights playing them in different positions?

Spot on. IMO there is no definitive answer that applies to the whole league. This question should be focussed at individual players as some play only one position well and others are very versatile. But as we have seen with Welsh in particular once he was moved into the midfield he has shown a lot more. Sure it may not only be the positional move, it could be confidence etc but without trying Welsh in a different position it's fair to say we wouldn't know how Welsh would prove as a midfielder.

 

[Bomber4eva]

It's not that hard to understand is it?

FFS how many times does Longy have to prove that your argument makes no sense...

Love your work longy, don't know how you have the patience

 

[Longy413]

What did you think of Paddy Ryder's game on the weekend TGBB?

 

[TheGreatBarryB]

What did you think of Paddy Ryder's game on the weekend TGBB?

Excellent at CHB, not so good at CHF. Very much to the detriment of the team. Bad move by Knights.