Pocket Aces

[Skeppersap]

Anyone else have real trouble with these?

HEM is showing, over 8k hands, that one of my worst hole card combinations is AA.

I find that with KK and QQ I am more likely to be able to fold, to ultra agressive play. With AA I am far more likely to call all-in when perhaps I shouldnt. Is this a common problem and leak?

JJ I have found is a trouble hand as well. It just gets beaten far too easily.

interesting stats are revealed by HEM.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[paxmaniac]

Thoughts anyone?

Yeah, 8k is way too small a sample to say for sure. That's probably fewer than 40 instances of AA, and it can easily be swayed by a few cooler results. AA is a very high variance hand, in that you are fairly likely to win or lose a stack with it.

If you are doing poorly with AA, it is more likely to be because you play it in a way that permits your opponents to play optimally against you. For example if you always 3bet aces, but not many other hands, and especially if your 3bets are too small, people may put you on a big pair, and call with small pairs looking to hit a set and stack you.

Chances are you are not losing with it because you are not folding enough. There are relatively few situations where folding AA is correct 100BB deep, unless the flop goes off multiway.

 

[sante]

May as well close the thread. Pax summed it up perfectly.

 

[volders]

Anyone else have real trouble with these?

HEM is showing, over 8k hands, that one of my worst hole card combinations is AA.

I find that with KK and QQ I am more likely to be able to fold, to ultra agressive play. With AA I am far more likely to call all-in when perhaps I shouldnt. Is this a common problem and leak?

JJ I have found is a trouble hand as well. It just gets beaten far too easily.

interesting stats are revealed by HEM.

Thoughts anyone?

AA should be your biggest winner by far, it's probably just sample size related, pretty sure any player is +EV with AA. It's just so dominantly strong.

 

[Skeppersap]

May as well close the thread. Pax summed it up perfectly.

Fairly dismissive post, a bit uncalled for! Whilst Pax had some extremely good points, I think it leads on to another question.

Besides obvious sabotage (eg raise, re-re-raise, fold), is it possible that you could just play AA so badly that you have -EV? Or, if you just ensured that you were all-in either pre-flop or flop regardless of other players and cards on the board, will the strength of AA ensure +EV?

 

[JuddsABlue]

Fairly dismissive post, a bit uncalled for! Whilst Pax had some extremely good points, I think it leads on to another question.

Besides obvious sabotage (eg raise, re-re-raise, fold), is it possible that you could just play AA so badly that you have -EV? Or, if you just ensured that you were all-in either pre-flop or flop regardless of other players and cards on the board, will the strength of AA ensure +EV?

limping/open folding flop would be -EV lol

Obv the most -EV way to play AA is to limp pre and play like a pussy post flop but even if it still actually is -EV is another question, rather than just much smaller +EV

OP you are new to poker obviously and have a very very very very long way to go with only 8k hands. You probably have high expectations of AA and for a new player it can be tricky to play.

Save this post and read it once you've played 50k hands and you'll wonder how you ever came to posting it

 

[checkraiseulite]

You need to provide more info than you have in your original post.

How AA is played post-flop will vary quite alot depending on whether you're playing 6max or FR, whether you're playing short, regular or deep tables and what stakes you're generally playing.

Eitherway, as previously noted 8k hands is pretty small.

What are your own stats for the stakes u play also?

 

[Skeppersap]

limping/open folding flop would be -EV lol

Obv the most -EV way to play AA is to limp pre and play like a pussy post flop but even if it still actually is -EV is another question, rather than just much smaller +EV

OP you are new to poker obviously and have a very very very very long way to go with only 8k hands. You probably have high expectations of AA and for a new player it can be tricky to play.

Save this post and read it once you've played 50k hands and you'll wonder how you ever came to posting it

Explain why???

I have played a fair bit, only just got HEM and noticed the anomolly. Just decided to create some discussion on this forum rather than on 2 +2 forums where some of the regulars have a massive superiority complex.

Yes, I know 8k is too small a sample size, but I also know I have not played AA well since I restarted with AA. It just got to wondering whether the over confidence of having AA can impair your decisions post flop to the point where you play poorly and have -EV.

FWIW, I play 25NL 6 max. Over 8k hands (I know, i know, way too small a sample size to tell win rates) I am running at a winrate of 4.5BB/100. My stats are 22.7/15.2/4.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Prob just an extended cold streak.

As mdc says; post hands.

 

[JuddsABlue]

Explain why???

I have played a fair bit, only just got HEM and noticed the anomolly. Just decided to create some discussion on this forum rather than on 2 +2 forums where some of the regulars have a massive superiority complex.

Yes, I know 8k is too small a sample size, but I also know I have not played AA well since I restarted with AA. It just got to wondering whether the over confidence of having AA can impair your decisions post flop to the point where you play poorly and have -EV.

FWIW, I play 25NL 6 max. Over 8k hands (I know, i know, way too small a sample size to tell win rates) I am running at a winrate of 4.5BB/100. My stats are 22.7/15.2/4.

Its self explanatory

8k hands is an extremely small sample size, like extremely small.

As I mentioned in my previous reply and as you mentioned here, it seems you're expecting too much with AA. Its just a pair preflop and usually just a pair post flop. It doesnt coordinate with straights/flushes very well and its sets are much harder to get paid off than say a set of 3's.

Its an old saying but generally holds true in cash games, you either win small pots or lose big ones.

The best advice that can be given now over a forum is keep playing, keep learning because you will manage to sort out of these small problems on your own and with time. There isnt a magic poker book that provides an answer on how to play AA at 25NL

 

[Bic]

Managed to get my Aces in pre flop 4 times tonight.

First time was beaten by 10 8o. 2 pair.
Second time was beaten by 22... Flopped quads.
Third time was against KK. Flop xxK / x / A...
Fourth time, AA vs A8, KK. Lose to set of kings.

 

[ashley12]

AA should be your biggest winner by far, it's probably just sample size related, pretty sure any player is +EV with AA. It's just so dominantly strong.

Agree with this.

A common fallacy among live players is the fact that when they take weak/passive lines with AA and win, through either picking off a bluff or a thin one pair VB (one pair bets arent always thin in general, but just for the nature of the post). They win a smaller pot then they should, and think because they played the hand there way made them money.

Thats not true, the fact that they had the best hand in poker preflop was the reason they made money, in most of the time the guys who have slightly wider ranges, such as myself (sick brag) will get paid more because

1) Im more aggressive and will get the money in faster, and actually will get the money in, and
2) Because we dont raise only KK+ our hand is harder to play against for other players with half a clue, especially since if I raise in LP with AA, the flop comes T73, well, my range generally misses that board and Tx will pay off a decent % of the time, since my wide range means I obviously never have a pair.

Anyway, a LOL live hand...

I open in somewhere in MP with KQs to 13. Get two callers, and the button as well who we will call peanut, one of the blinds call, 5 ways to the flop

Flop T85 with a flush draw, two spades and a heart. I check because people arent all folding this board. Everyone checks.

Turn jack of hearts. I contemplated betting, but again, I didnt want to have to bet blank rivers if called, blah blah blah. Turn checks around again.

River the ace of hearts. Yay, broadway. I reach for chips, but hey, the person on my left is loading up. I can c/r the field, victory is assured huzzah...

I check, the person on my left changes his mind with what he told me later was A7. Checks to the button who bets 20. I raise to 70 and congratulate myself for getting a raise in vs just top pair... Folds back to the button, who threebets another 120 more. I may have actually cried. I dont have hearts (obv) and basically decide that he never has a hand that isnt a heart flush. I cry and fold (yes, I had originally planned to c/r/f but dosent mean I like it when he 3b the river...

Villian rolls a set of aces... To recap his line

PRE: Make the 3rd overcall on the button with AA
FLOP: Check when checked to with overpair
TURN: Check when checked to with overpair
RIVER: B/3b bluff top set. Obv he isnt bluffing in his mind but w/e, soul-owned IMO...

About how I played the hand, Im trying to avoid getting to showdown as often vs straightforward villians as much, which is why I was happy to c/r/f compared to just b/c, because up until this hand the guy had been pretty straightforward over a few hour sample, but hey, we all butcher hands now and again.

 

[paxmaniac]

I open in somewhere in MP with KQs to 13. Get two callers, and the button as well who we will call peanut, one of the blinds call, 5 ways to the flop

Flop T85 with a flush draw, two spades and a heart. I check because people arent all folding this board. Everyone checks.

Turn jack of hearts. I contemplated betting, but again, I didnt want to have to bet blank rivers if called, blah blah blah. Turn checks around again.

I don't like your reasoning for checking both the flop and the turn. On the flop, you have at least 30% equity five ways, so "they won't all fold" is not itself a good reason. On the turn, you have again at least 33% equity, and will often have 46% equity against single pair hands.

I reckon a big bet is warranted on the turn after the checked around flop. I'd be tempted to pull a massive overbet shove, given that even when called you will have many outs.

 

[ashley12]

I don't like your reasoning for checking both the flop and the turn. On the flop, you have at least 30% equity five ways, so "they won't all fold" is not itself a good reason. On the turn, you have again at least 33% equity, and will often have 46% equity against single pair hands.

I reckon a big bet is warranted on the turn after the checked around flop. I'd be tempted to pull a massive overbet shove, given that even when called you will have many outs.

Disagree. On the flop the field hasnt acted yet. I would find it difficult to do an exact stoving, but I highly doubt that my K's and Q's are good all the time, reverse implieds are a small issue, and the flop is lots of ways. A brazillion people are in this hand, and barely any of whom have acted on this board as of yet. Its a board where we can get called, and then be in a sickish spot on the turn, get accidently floated to an extent and then be in a shite spot. Yes, I know we never have an overpair once we check, but people arent concerned anyway about my potential holdings usually, because a decent % of them normally they have a ZOMG I HAZ PAIR11!111!! mentality.

Also, we might have 30% equity, but we are not going to realise all that equity all the time when we check blank turns...

The turn is closer IMO. Had it been Jxx T I might have been more likely to do so, because people we obv have a tougher time continuing with Tx compared to Jx, even if only slightly. The fact I checked the flop wouldnt mean a heap since a decent % of people would do it with a set of jacks just as much as ace high UI...

Stacks sizes were shitty for a turn shove. Cant remember exact effective stacks, but an overbet wasnt completely bad, but wasnt anywhere near a shove...

One thing I have changed recently in terms of my live play is reducing my barrelling % on wettish boards. It was a problem in my limit play, and its a problem Im rectifying in my NL play too, particularly 4ways+...

Im still not completely sold on the river play being completely terrible, but meh, I like the fact that I can make heaps of mistakes and not get completely soul-crushed overall in the game...

 

[ashley12]

^^^If you actually run the different possible holdings etc I think you'll see flop is a very easy bet for a bunch of reasons. Size of the best depends on the stack sizes.

Once checked, either $30 or $100+ (the latter being what pax mentioned) would be the go.

Theoretically, I bet 30 into what is around 65 IIRC (Im assuming we are betting the flop yes? Two calls...

Turn being a brick

Are we really going big on that card? What about HU rather then 3ways. It just seems that putting in this kind of money UI in 2/3 is just incinerating money, since the major fault of most live players is calling to much, folding to little.

I think it comes from when I was playing 10/20 limit, but in general just firing $$$ into the pot with king high is GENERALLY a bad idea multiway.

I talked about the hand with a few people, most people hate the river play far more then the turn play, and most people considering the flop to be kind of standard in the lineup we were in.

 

[checkraiseulite]

what was your plan for the flop and turn in this hand?

check/raising both?

 

[volders]

flop is a snap bet vs any lineup you want people to call with TJo, 99, A8o here, you are ahead of them... only reason not to bet would be to c/r if table suited it (ie. guy to your left is super aggro and rest of table are stations)

Theoretically, I bet 30 into what is around 65 IIRC (Im assuming we are betting the flop yes? Two calls...

Turn being a brick

Are we really going big on that card? What about HU rather then 3ways. It just seems that putting in this kind of money UI in 2/3 is just incinerating money, since the major fault of most live players is calling to much, folding to little.

I think it comes from when I was playing 10/20 limit, but in general just firing $$$ into the pot with king high is GENERALLY a bad idea multiway.

I talked about the hand with a few people, most people hate the river play far more then the turn play, and most people considering the flop to be kind of standard in the lineup we were in.

Assuming it's a std live lineup of passive stationy players I can't see a reason not to bet. You didn't really give any reads or stacksizes but I'm struggling to imagine a dynamic where I think it's -EV to bet.

 

[ashley12]

Oh, I jusr realised something...

KQs simply means KQ suited, not necessarilyt KsQs. I didnt have the flush draw in this hand... I was wondering why people keep telling me K high is a massive fav in this hand.

And yes, if I did have KsQs in this hand then I would definately bet the flop, and possibly bet the turn...

Woops..

 

[volders]

yeah hands pretty std IMO then, only decision is whether to be turn, river is ez fold for me.