FMD if we can't give someone $17 an hour for a day's work we may as well close the country down.
Opinion Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)
- Thread starter Cesoir
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A minimum wage is not socialism.
Reducing inequality is not the equivalent of socialism.
Paying a minimum wage is common decency, it keeps our economy ticking over. Recipients of the minimum wage have a rather high marginal propensity to consume, they'll likely spend every cent they get, it's pretty damn hard to save on a minimum wage. They're worth every damn penny they get.
Penalty rates just got cut for christ sake, we don't need to make it any harder for low income earners.
If you're "paying minimum wage for a job that's not worth minimum wage" I'd suggest the whole business model needs a rethink.
If you're unwilling to rethink the business model why don't we have a look at the pay packets of CEOs? Good luck convincing the general population they're worth the money they're paid.
Reducing inequality is not the equivalent of socialism.
Paying a minimum wage is common decency, it keeps our economy ticking over. Recipients of the minimum wage have a rather high marginal propensity to consume, they'll likely spend every cent they get, it's pretty damn hard to save on a minimum wage. They're worth every damn penny they get.
Penalty rates just got cut for christ sake, we don't need to make it any harder for low income earners.
If you're "paying minimum wage for a job that's not worth minimum wage" I'd suggest the whole business model needs a rethink.
If you're unwilling to rethink the business model why don't we have a look at the pay packets of CEOs? Good luck convincing the general population they're worth the money they're paid.
Lies, Lies and Throw in a Bit of Fake News
Where on the cusps of a Pandemic and the optics are not good. Who can one trust to tell the truth. Can Scott from Marketing be trusted to tell it the way it is? The bullshit meter is in overdrive fires, sports grants and now the deadly flu. Who do we have to standup and lead the charge?
On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app
Where on the cusps of a Pandemic and the optics are not good. Who can one trust to tell the truth. Can Scott from Marketing be trusted to tell it the way it is? The bullshit meter is in overdrive fires, sports grants and now the deadly flu. Who do we have to standup and lead the charge?
On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app
No, there isn't. For it to do so would totally violate the law of demand and supply. Minimum wage increases unemployment, just as a price floor for anything reduces demand for anything.
Minimum wage helps nobody and locks millions of Australians into a life of welfare dependency.
Employers don't just magically decide to pay people more than they are worth when you bring in a minimum wage or raise the minimum wage. They simply get rid of the jobs that aren't worth the minimum wage any more.
This is why you have self service checkouts in Australia now. This is why Australia doesn't have dudes who pour your drinks in restaurants - but the US does. Because these jobs simply aren't economically viable in Australia. The jobs just disappear and the people who used to do them end up on the dole or disability pension.
The minimum wage is the textbook example of a well-intentioned policy that ends up hurting the people it is meant to help.
Nah, they just close down the jobs that aren't worth $17 an hour. Like petrol pump attendants. Remember those?
Or the businesses that rely on low wages to survive, like manufacturing. I would ask if you remember those but our fledgling manufacturing industry was destroyed before WWI with the introduction of the minimum wage, and sunshine harvester, one of the worlds biggest manufacturing companies at the time, was sold off to massey ferguson because Australia decided to set an unrealistic minimum wage.
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They do rethink their business model all the time - by getting rid of the jobs that aren't worth paying minimum wage for. Like checkout operators, petrol pump attendants, etc. Why do you think these things are automated now? Is it because supermarket owners have a fetish for robots? No, it's because the minimum wage has priced these jobs out.
This is old school economic thinking though. The application of demand and supply to minimum wages is seen as far too simplistic these days. New theories dive a little more deeper. They suggest that although considerable increases can raise unemployment, more conservative increases can actually lead to increased employment. I'm not an economist and not going to bore everyone trying to explain it but there is plenty of information out there from some extremely credible economists.
Don't want to pile on but this isn't true. 'Automated' supermarket checkouts don't necessarily reduce staff numbers. Shoppers are doing more shops per week with smaller baskets and don't want to line up and wait. Consumers (typically young ones) expect them so supermarkets have had to implement them. The two main reasons there are still plenty of supermarket staff dealing with self service checkouts - (1) they stuff up all the time and need manual authorised intervention, and (2) people are far more likely to steal using self checkouts - more staff supervising them = far less theft. As the technology improves/becomes cheaper the economic reasoning will start to become far more of a factor (and probably is already) but linking the automation purely to minimum wage movement doesn't accurately reflect what happened or is happening.
As for petrol pumps, I think you'll find that was because they became an unnecessary cost. People can and are willing to pump their own fuel. Staff are expensive irrespective of their wage - why have them and all their associated costs if you don't need them?
If you want to discuss minimum wage impact on automating jobs then manufacturing is the most relevant industry to look at imo. Like most things you can pick and choose data to show anything you want. The reality though is, although minimum wage can be a factor in when (the timing) businesses adopt automation it is rarely the only factor (and it will happen eventually anyway). Most businesses using unskilled workers are always looking at potential automation - for speed, quality, efficiency etc. Costs of staff is always increasing irrespective of minimum wage. In most cases the only thing a minimum wage increase may do is bring on automation adoption a little earlier than it otherwise would have been. I think it's inevitable these unskilled jobs will be automated because robots will do it faster and better, in the future if not already.
Yeah mate there is. Might want to start your reading at Card and Krueger's paper, it's the most famous one (probably the most easy to critique too)
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Hahaha oh boy.
Let's be clear here, Coles and woolies at no point struggled to pay the minimum wage, they made ridiculous profits that would make anyone's eyes water.
It wasn't that self serve checkouts were born into existence because it was too expensive to pay the minimum wage but because they developed the technology and managed to make it cheaper than a minimum wage.
I'm a student and even I can afford to go to restaurants where they have people that fill up your drink.
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- #462
Back to the climate debate, I think we all accept that it is happening, and we need to look at ways we can deal with the inevitable impact that we are already seeing. Better forest management and improved firefighting techniques and equipment are a no-brainer, but what can we do about some of the other changes we are seeing.
I have come up with a potential solution to the question of rising sea levels. Sea sponges have been harvested for over 150 years now, and that must surely be having an impact on their numbers. So... let's just have a complete moratorium on sea sponge harvesting. As the sponges get back to their original numbers more sea water will be absorbed, lowering sea levels. I'm sure the people in low lying Pacific Islands will appreciate it, and would it really hurt us to use Chux Super Wipes instead of sponges?
I have come up with a potential solution to the question of rising sea levels. Sea sponges have been harvested for over 150 years now, and that must surely be having an impact on their numbers. So... let's just have a complete moratorium on sea sponge harvesting. As the sponges get back to their original numbers more sea water will be absorbed, lowering sea levels. I'm sure the people in low lying Pacific Islands will appreciate it, and would it really hurt us to use Chux Super Wipes instead of sponges?
I see a new episode of Utopia coming from this. No doubt the "Minister" will like the optics. Although someone will have to ask the question of why not just fill the ocean with Chux Super Wipes to lower sea levels instead? I mean you can get a 60 pack for like $7 these days
If we could pair it with building some ginormous air conditioning units to stop the glaciers melting... job done!
- Thread starter
- #464
I like your thinking, but let's be real here - Chux Super Wipes are inorganic and take over 1,000 year to break down. Sponges are living orgasms so they will naturally reproduce and once the sea levels are stable they will stop reproducing. It's science mate.I see a new episode of Utopia coming from this. No doubt the "Minister" will like the optics. Although someone will have to ask the question of why not just fill the ocean with Chux Super Wipes to lower sea levels instead? I mean you can get a 60 pack for like $7 these days
If we could pair it with building some ginormous air conditioning units to stop the glaciers melting... job done!
I think there is merit in the air-conditioners idea, but you'd have to weigh up the benefit versus the fuel used to run them. This is a tricky problem for sure.
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Giant wrap around sun shade hanging from sky hooks .
I can't take credit for this , think it was Hanson or Barnaby,s great idea.
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I like it. And how about we go and build the pipeline line or channel from the Kimberleys to bring all the extra rainwater in summer to Perth and open up the interior of WA to agriculture with water outlets along the way? Stop it running off into the ocean and the oceans rising!
It's always seemed strange that global warming has been changed into climate change because for years the scientists were saying we're heading for a mini ice age.
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poshman said:
"Every time socialism has been attempted over 30 times worldwide it has failed and made things worse for lower and middle class people. It has ended in murder, authoritarianism and worse on each occasion.
Capitalism although not perfect has resulted in the countries who have held to it (some lower taxes some higher) having the best living conditions in the world."
Cows explain it best.
Then Countries have their own brands.
"Every time socialism has been attempted over 30 times worldwide it has failed and made things worse for lower and middle class people. It has ended in murder, authoritarianism and worse on each occasion.
Capitalism although not perfect has resulted in the countries who have held to it (some lower taxes some higher) having the best living conditions in the world."
Cows explain it best.
Then Countries have their own brands.
Moo likes this
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- #469
Elon Musk sent a car into space. Why can't he send lots of them and lower the sun visors on all of them? I am loving the creativity in this thread!Giant wrap around sun shade hanging from sky hooks .
I can't take credit for this , think it was Hanson or Barnaby,s great idea.
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But Norway or any of the other Nordic countries don't agree their countries have democratic socialism policies.
"Sorry Bernie Bros, but Nordic Countries are not Socialist" https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffre...dic-countries-are-not-socialist/#1ebbb10674ad
It is certainly trued that Sweden, Norway, Finland and Denmark are notable economic successes. What is false is that these countries ae particularly socialist.
Perhaps a better name for what the Nordic countries practice would be compassionate capitalism.
"The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism" https://fee.org/articles/the-myth-of-scandinavian-socialism/
Bernie Sanders has single-handedly brought the term “democratic socialism” into the contemporary American political lexicon and shaken millions of Millennials out of their apathy towards politics.
In response to Americans frequently referring to his country as socialist, the prime minister of Denmark recently remarked in a lecture at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government,
“I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy.”
In the Scandinavian countries, like all other developed nations, the means of production are primarily owned by private individuals, not the community or the government, and resources are allocated to their respective uses by the market, not government or community planning.
While it is true that the Scandinavian countries provide things like a generous social safety net and universal health care, an extensive welfare state is not the same thing as socialism.
What Sanders and his supporters confuse as socialism is actually social democracy, a system in which the government aims to promote the public welfare through heavy taxation and spending, within the framework of a capitalist economy. This is what the Scandinavians practice.
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There's always the oldie but a goodie of towing ice burgs from Antartica.
Someone would have to design a tap or something to transfer the water to land before it all melted!
No, there isn't. Paul Krugman is not a credible economist.
Yeah there's nothing particularly socialist about Nordic countries, no more so than Australia anyway.
Start at Card and Krueger then.
Yep fair point and I should have known we'd end up down this rabbit hole. We could go back and forth for hours debating "what is socialism" or "what is capitalism" to suit our various narratives or even dive into the different types of each... but we'd veer way off course to what the original conversation was. Some people might be upset after just having dusted off their year 12 Economics text book.
The point I made right from the start was it isn't black and white like someone was claiming - effectively saying almost all economies are mixed economies these days. Personally I don't like the terms "socialism" or "capitalism" because people can interpret them very differently - especially in modern times. And "socialism" often gets misidentified as being the same as "communism". And others think "capitalism" always refers to "unfettered capitalism". I think it is yet another example of us trying to categorise something by simplifying it way too much and in doing so losing all its meaning.
I'm a big fan of the Nordic Model - they seem to have got the balance closer to perfect than anyone else has seemed to. I agree with whoever said Australia isn't that dissimilar. And it is why I shake my head at our current leaders. Why the heck are we taking the lead from the US when there is a model that seems to make far more sense? That is still a market economy but also places a priority on social policies and reaps combined success because of it. Norway's biggest company Equinor, is two thirds owned by the Norwegian government and they are investing heavily in renewable energy. Meanwhile Australia...
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- need to take a good look at themselves
Good luck getting all these little entrepreneurs we seem to have unearthed paying the amount of tax required to get Australia routinely in the top ten Happiness Index reports, like the Nordic model countries are.
I’m alright, Jack.
I’m alright, Jack.
