Opinion Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)

[Episode IV]

Is it ok with you if I interpret this post as you saying that you have no empathy?

Initially, I wrote out a rather long post in answer to this. It had stories about snakes in it, and stuff. Some musings on the nature of empathy and its expression, nature, conservation, the fight or flight response, all manner of things.
I've had snakes on my mind for a while now. Bloody things are everywhere at the moment. Thought I'd try to incorporate my thoughts on them into a response to you, but thought better of it. Frankly, I have more sympathy for the snakes, as much trouble as they are, than I have for your ignorant guff.

I deleted it, though.

When I consider that that question is the only thing you apparently took from what I wrote, I thought that perhaps, instead, it's better for me to simply say, yes, Stax. It is ok for you to interpret it that way.
You're probably doing far more to convince the more intellectually able among us that you're a moron than anything I'm inclined to post in response to it, other than this.

 

[wahooo]

Initially, I wrote out a rather long post in answer to this. It had stories about snakes in it, and stuff. Some musings on the nature of empathy and its expression, nature, conservation, the fight or flight response, all manner of things.
I've had snakes on my mind for a while now. Bloody things are everywhere at the moment. Thought I'd try to incorporate my thoughts on them into a response to you, but thought better of it. Frankly, I have more sympathy for the snakes, as much trouble as they are, than I have for your ignorant guff.

I deleted it, though.

When I consider that that question is the only thing you apparently took from what I wrote, I thought that perhaps, instead, it's better for me to simply say, yes, Stax. It is ok for you to interpret it that way.
You're probably doing far more to convince the more intellectually able among us that you're a moron than anything I'm inclined to post in response to it, other than this.

Did you expect a serious response to a post that concluded Australians cannot feel empathy based on the false proposition that to feel empathy one must have lived experience of a situation or thing?

Both your conclusion and reasoning were ridiculous.

 

[Taylor]

As an aside from Palestine, we live in the part of the world where rich people feel bad for people living in another place who are happier than they are.

Where did the millionaires living along the coast of Palestine go?

 

[Episode IV]

Did you expect a serious response to a post that concluded Australians cannot feel empathy based on the false proposition that to feel empathy one must have lived experience of a situation or thing?

Both your conclusion and reasoning were ridiculous.

Oh, look who's back.
Fully recovered from the last round, are you?

 

[Episode IV]

Interesting interview on South Africa's application to the ICJ and some comment on differences between ICJ and International Criminal Court (ICC).

South Africa has filed a case at the main judicial body for the United Nations, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague, accusing Israel of committing genocide in Gaza. "I believe South Africa will win an order against Israel to cease and desist from committing all acts of genocide against the Palestinians," says Francis Boyle, an international human rights lawyer who won two requests at the ICJ under the Genocide Convention of 1948 for provisional protection on behalf of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina against Yugoslavia. Boyle says Israel has a history of listening to the United States' orders to stop its assaults on the Occupied Palestinian Territories. "We here in the United States of America have the power to stop this."

Apologies if this has been asked previously.
Why South Africa?

 

[wahooo]

Oh, look who's back.
Fully recovered from the last round, are you?

I take it you are not given it's still front of mind for you.

Edit: also, move on.

 

[Episode IV]

I take it you are not given it's still front of mind for you.

Edit: also, move on.

You've once again come out of nowhere to weigh into something you're not involved with, to rush to the defence of someone who has said something stupid (but he's on "your team", and that's good enough for you), but have not addressed the original post.

Same thing you did last time. Same thing you always do. Serious case of white knight syndrome you got there, boy.
Your motivation is clear. You're transparent. You've only got one play. And, apparently, you're a bit of a masochist.

"Move on", says the guy coming in from nowhere to pick a fight.
Nah. I think I'll stay. Let's see what else you got.

That is, of course, if you're here to actually say anything. I don't think you are.

 

[wahooo]

You've once again come out of nowhere to weigh into something you're not involved with, to rush to the defence of someone who has said something stupid (but he's on "your team", and that's good enough for you), but have not addressed the original post.

Same thing you did last time. Same thing you always do. Serious case of white knight syndrome you got there, boy.
Your motivation is clear. You're transparent. You've only got one play. And, apparently, you're a bit of a masochist.

"Move on", says the guy coming in from nowhere to pick a fight.
Nah. I think I'll stay. Let's see what else you got.

That is, of course, if you're here to actually say anything. I don't think you are.

Was the premise of your original post that in order to be capable of feeling or displaying empathy one must have lived experience of a situation or thing?

As I pointed out in my comment, that premise is contrary to my understanding of empathy.

 

[Taylor]

It's actually quite racist of someone to believe they understand or empathise with people who have a different lived experience.

- lefty rule book until October 8th

 

[BlueE]

Apologies if this has been asked previously.
Why South Africa?

"Both South Africa and Israel are signatories to the Genocide Convention of 1948, which has now been invoked by South Africa."

 

[Episode IV]

"Both South Africa and Israel are signatories to the Genocide Convention of 1948, which has now been invoked by South Africa."

Sure. So were 150 odd other states, with those distaining to become signatories coming almost exclusively from Africa, South America and Asia. Colour me surprised. Not even sure I need to use the word "almost" in there, just covering my tracks to avoid actually having to look it up.

But the question is not one of how, but why.
Why South Africa?

There are quite a few actions either ongoing or in the very recent past which have either been reported on as genocide, or alerted to the potential. One of them is still going on in Sudan, considerably closer to South Africa than Israel is.
There are currently 350,000+ people living in refugee camps along the borders, primarily in Chad as far as I know.
Those 350,000 are only the refugees of course. The dead might number in the millions. Sort of puts Israel v Palestine in the shade, really.
The UN has discussed the issue, at length, from time to time, but when it comes down to action either being taken or even being demanded to be taken, those responsible for responding are otherwise engaged. The majority of folks who normally get revved up over this sort of thing have been curiously circumspect, which is odd, because those refugees from Sudan are probably far more "innocent" than the Palestinians. Maybe if we got a major league Youtuber or Twitter influencer to make some noise about it?

South Africa is currently experiencing rising levels of xenophobia as a result of its own refugee problems, 250,000+ of them, and is now becoming aware of the results of its liberal refugee and immigration laws post-apartheid.
Most of those are not from Sudan, but from other, closer regional conflicts - there is quite a bit of s**t going down in Africa at the moment, although so far it has been adequate to mumble something about ongoing relief efforts and blame the Russians or something in response.
I think the USA has a marine battalion or two stationed around the oilfields in Sudan. Can't be having those blow up, it'd be bad for the environment. Last I checked, Russia had some folks there too... well, mercenaries at any rate.

I'm wondering why South Africa is concerning itself with events in the middle east to the point of going to the UN with this, given its own problems closer to home. But the main brunt of the question is why it is South Africa who is presenting the suit to the UN. There are well over a hundred other signatories to that convention, and many of them would probably have a far more vested interest.
But, no. It's South Africa.

Any theories? Other than South Africans getting an attack of the feels after watching a few X posts?

 

[BlueE]

Sure. So were 150 odd other states, with those distaining to become signatories coming almost exclusively from Africa, South America and Asia. Colour me surprised. Not even sure I need to use the word "almost" in there, just covering my tracks to avoid actually having to look it up.

But the question is not one of how, but why.
Why South Africa?

There are quite a few actions either ongoing or in the very recent past which have either been reported on as genocide, or alerted to the potential. One of them is still going on in Sudan, considerably closer to South Africa than Israel is.
There are currently 350,000+ people living in refugee camps along the borders, primarily in Chad as far as I know.
Those 350,000 are only the refugees of course. The dead might number in the millions. Sort of puts Israel v Palestine in the shade, really.
The UN has discussed the issue, at length, from time to time, but when it comes down to action either being taken or even being demanded to be taken, those responsible for responding are otherwise engaged. The majority of folks who normally get revved up over this sort of thing have been curiously circumspect, which is odd, because those refugees from Sudan are probably far more "innocent" than the Palestinians. Maybe if we got a major league Youtuber or Twitter influencer to make some noise about it?

South Africa is currently experiencing rising levels of xenophobia as a result of the 250,000 refuges and is now becoming aware of the results of its liberal refugee and immigration laws post-apartheid.
Most of those are not from Sudan, but from other, closer regional conflicts - there is quite a bit of s**t going down in Africa at the moment, although so far it has been adequate to mumble something about ongoing relief efforts and blame the Russians or something in response.
I think the USA has a marine battalion or two stationed around the oilfields in Sudan. Can't be having those blow up, it'd be bad for the environment. Last I checked, Russia had some folks there too... well, mercenaries at any rate.

I'm wondering why South Africa is concerning itself with events in the middle east to the point of going to the UN with this, given its own problems closer to home. But the main brunt of the question is why it is South Africa who is presenting the suit to the UN. There are well over a hundred other signatories to that convention, and many of them would probably have a far more vested interest.
But, no. It's South Africa.

Any theories? Other than South Africans getting an attack of the feels after watching a few X posts?

It was a simple question with a simple answer. However, you've gone off on quite a few tangents, seemingly to deflect and trivialise the issue Infront of the ICJ.

Have you read or listened to the presentation where they lay out the case of intent and actions to commit genocide, often using Israeli officials or military own words starting before Oct 7?

A better on topic question would have been, will the ICJ hold any weight, when the ICC have been a politically motivated, and ineffective organisation?

What situations in Africa have been reported as genocide? Who was ruling those countries in 1948 and were they signatories to the 1948 Genocide Convention?

 

[poshman]

It's actually quite racist of someone to believe they understand or empathise with people who have a different lived experience.

- lefty rule book until October 8th

Plus you have to believe their claim and change your language an beliefs to suit that individuals lived experience. Otherwise we know you are bigoted.

 

[Episode IV]

It was a simple question with a simple answer. However, you've gone off on quite a few tangents, seemingly to deflect and trivialise the issue Infront of the ICJ.

A simple answer, huh? Alright then.
Why has it been left to South Africa to take a genocide accusation to court? What, exactly, is that "simple answer"?
I've got a theory or two. Just wanted to know what others thought.

Have you read or listened to the presentation where they lay out the case of intent and actions to commit genocide, often using Israeli officials or military own words starting before Oct 7?

Not yet. I'm sure I'll read all about it at some point in the future when "they" get around to doing something about something. Sworn testimony, taped recordings, leaked documents, throw in a few real statements for the sake of veracity, the whole nine yards. Entirely depends on how much those who want to prove intent are prepared to pay to do so.
Remember the Nayirah testimony? That was just the Human Rights Commission. They got caught... that time.

I'm a bit of a pessimist, I'm afraid. I don't really trust anything much at all, any more. I've read though the documentation on genocide, actually I might have even posted something about it somewhere*, some time ago. For now, that's all I need.
Sort of like watching a Texas poker game on Youtube, where all the hands have been revealed for the viewers, it's just going to be interesting to watch how those hands are played.

Oh, and by the way - The USA itself is one of those countries which did not ratify. So there's the "almost". I knew there was one I'd forgotten, at least. Quite an important one, particularly in this case.
Seems that "rules based world order" loses a bit of appeal when those who enforce the rules don't come to order.

A better on topic question would have been, will the ICJ hold any weight, when the ICC have been a politically motivated, and ineffective organisation?

So ask that question. I was asking a different one. Yours isn't a bad one either, and actually I might have given you an indication of what my response would be if you were to ask it.

What situations in Africa have been reported as genocide? Who was ruling those countries in 1948 and were they signatories to the 1948 Genocide Convention?

Sudan? The one I spent some time presenting as a point of perspective?
In 2006 it was ruled by the ICC that Darfur was not a case of genocide, because they could not prove intent. That's actually important too, because I'm quite sure at least a part of Israel's case might be that if genocide were indeed the intent, it would lead to Palestine ceasing to exist in a week.

So, a million or so dead or missing in Sudan, 350K plus in "camps" along the border of another country, jury decides "not guilty", judge bangs his gavel and says "order in the court! next case!" so they can now discuss 25k Palestinians instead.
Look. Shiny thing.
That, BlueE, was an example of where the word trivialize might have been more applicable. Although I'd prefer flippant.

Having said that, the questions you've asked about the situation in 1948 as compared to today also go a long way toward answering your question about the relevance of the 1948 Genocide Convention.



* - Yes, I did.

Opinion - Politics (warning, may contain political views you disagree with)

Sad to see a bunch of people in here accepting as fact a bunch of unfounded views about the people of Gaza. The extent of their thinking appears to be 'I saw one person in Gaza do a bad thing, therefore, they're all bad. Let me question whether they deserve our compassion'. Solid stuff guys...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[stax on the mull]

hahaaha your imagined bigotry.

I think that it is clear bigotry to think that to very different cultures would have the same mindset. And then to assume they think and act like westerners.

Showing your bigotry there as well as weak comprehension skills.

This is not Hercule Poirot stuff. It's pretty simple.

I indicated that I recalled you writing these things:

i) "before you all come at me"
ii) your visits the the Middle East and North Africa
iii) your mention of reasons being for business and charity work

OK, so here you agree that you posted that but in a separate post, but there's nowhere in your subsequent posts where those comments exist in your timeline.




Therefore, those comments that you agree that you wrote have to part of a post that has either been edited or deleted.

Along with some other comments also edited about the people who live in those regions not having the same regard for human life as people in the Western world.

So that's why I raised the point to King Huskii that you might have edited your post when he wrote that he "read between the lines".

I mean it's a good thing that you've reflected on what you posted and changed it, although I guess there's a possibility that you did it accidentally.

 

[stax on the mull]

Initially, I wrote out a rather long post in answer to this. It had stories about snakes in it, and stuff. Some musings on the nature of empathy and its expression, nature, conservation, the fight or flight response, all manner of things.
I've had snakes on my mind for a while now. Bloody things are everywhere at the moment. Thought I'd try to incorporate my thoughts on them into a response to you, but thought better of it. Frankly, I have more sympathy for the snakes, as much trouble as they are, than I have for your ignorant guff.

I deleted it, though.

When I consider that that question is the only thing you apparently took from what I wrote, I thought that perhaps, instead, it's better for me to simply say, yes, Stax. It is ok for you to interpret it that way.
You're probably doing far more to convince the more intellectually able among us that you're a moron than anything I'm inclined to post in response to it, other than this.

I was just trying to work my way through the salad of words to get to the nub of it, find some succinct summary.

There was something in the 2nd paragraph where you seemed to show you had thought about others suffering PTSD symptoms which meant the conclusion that I reached was more on the balance of probability, rather than unequivocal.

 

[Taylor]

Along with some other comments also edited about the people who live in those regions not having the same regard for human life as people in the Western world.

I think Palestinian law allows for execution on grounds of such serious offences as crimes against the laws of Islam and selling land to Israelis.

Since our nation doesn't kill people for similar things, I think you can objectively say our culture has a different value on life.

 

[poshman]

This is not Hercule Poirot stuff. It's pretty simple.

I indicated that I recalled you writing these things:

i) "before you all come at me"
ii) your visits the the Middle East and North Africa
iii) your mention of reasons being for business and charity work

OK, so here you agree that you posted that but in a separate post, but there's nowhere in your subsequent posts where those comments exist in your timeline.

View attachment 1887981


Therefore, those comments that you agree that you wrote have to part of a post that has either been edited or deleted.

Along with some other comments also edited about the people who live in those regions not having the same regard for human life as people in the Western world.

So that's why I raised the point to King Huskii that you might have edited your post when he wrote that he "read between the lines".

I mean it's a good thing that you've reflected on what you posted and changed it, although I guess there's a possibility that you did it accidentally.

What rubbish - I have never said anything about not having the same regard for human life. Take that back or prove it. What a disgusting allegation top make without proof.

Did you check the timeline prior to that post? I also didn't agree - I said 'i think you are' meaning you could be. But show me the post. I don't delete posts or edit them if I was wrong. I admit it, which happened on the elton John thing a few pages back and I didn't edit or delete it.

I never edited that post. Another claim which you cannot prove. You are now saying I did that when Huskii made his imaginary claim.

Ask SnuffAluffAgus[/USEto check the post in question and clarify if after Huskii made that claim I edited the post. obviously wrong @. Find where I have said the human life stuff. Find it. Or apologise. Your Ad Hominem shows the weakness in your arguments. (So this is edited - and I assume it can be seen that it is edited)

Also - some people edit posts to make them more legible. I am not ashamed of the work I did in the region and the time spent there. I think it gives me a lot more perspective than people who have not been there, or been on vacation only.

 

[poshman]

I have stayed away from this discussion, although I have spent a lot of time in the region, which I have discussed previously in regards to mindset. The challenge for the western mind is the the Ancient Near East mind does not hold the same values. In fact they believe we lack values in almost all the most important areas.

Having said that I will ask this as I have read the last 6 pages (may have missed it) and haven't seen it. What do the following statements mean practically?

Free Palestine =

From the river to the sea =

Secondly, how would you propose entering into a political agreement (2 state solution) with the very same leadership that just raped and killed your people during a time of peace? How is that done practically when the people support that leadership and would vote them in again?

Also - there are still hostages being kept and based on what released hostages have said, repeatedly abused and raped. Personally if that was one of my daughters I know how I would feel. Why have they not been released and why do I not hear outrage or demands on their behalf from the pro palestine side? In my opinion the rest is almost a non starter given this is an elected and majority supported political party.

Hint: They need to be released, but... is not a sound argument.
____________________

I am interested in practical, reasonable solutions. As I have been in every area of my professional and not for profit career. Before I am labelled anything I have worked in the middle east and northern africa through 2004-2014.

This is the post you are talking about... spot the bigotry please? I thought it was those of us who believed everyone did or should think like us that were the bigots?

Is that how you think?

I can't fathom how that is what you are jumping on as bigotted. Bizarro land of some of the left.

 

[poshman]

Back to Aussie politics - any predictions on interest rates this year?

Sadly it seems we are going to have to almost octogenarians running in the states... cue the racial stuff to be dialled to million for the elections.

 

[stax on the mull]

What rubbish - I have never said anything about not having the same regard for human life. Take that back or prove it. What a disgusting allegation top make without proof.

Did you check the timeline prior to that post? I also didn't agree - I said 'i think you are' meaning you could be. But show me the post. I don't delete posts or edit them if I was wrong. I admit it, which happened on the elton John thing a few pages back and I didn't edit or delete it.

I never edited that post. Another claim which you cannot prove. You are now saying I did that when Huskii made his imaginary claim.

Ask SnuffAluffAgus to check the post in question and clarify if after Huskii made that claim I edited the post.

Also - some people edit posts to make them more legible. I am not ashamed of the work I did in the region and the time spent there. I think it gives me a lot more perspective than people who have not been there, or been on vacation only.

Prior to the post isn't relevant because that post begins with you indicating that you had avoided commenting on the topic, and the remarks are introductory, in keeping with the content of the what eventually became your post. There must have been a reason why you said "before you all come at me".

Like I said, I'm just going to agree to disagree with whether it's been edited or deleted. I'm just recalling the reason why I had privately thought it was bigoted - and what I consider offensive is something personal, and on this Politics thread it's a quite common experience for me..

Anyway I see Taylor has popped in to support that notion that human life is less valued in these regions, so I guess it's a topic.

I agree with you about the editing process. It can be a never ending struggle for some of us.

 

[poshman]

Not sure where I saw this, but I added it to my notes app:

If you are not as disgusted by a Hammer and Sickle as you are a Swastika then the education system has failed you.

Thoughts? I am on record here saying I agree.

 

[Taylor]

Anyway I see Taylor has popped in to support that notion that human life is less valued in these regions, so I guess it's a topic.

I think you need to put on your reading glasses, because I was stating the attitude towards life in Palestine from their legal system compared to ours.

And since I belong to OUR system that doesn't kill people for selling land to Isrealis or breaking religious laws I think I have a high enough value for human life.

If you want to get into an abortion discussion we can do that too and I assume I'd torch you on that as well in regard for human life stakes.

So kindly, respectfully, find a dark place to shove your self congratulating and self validating accusations you throw out.

 

[poshman]

Prior to the post isn't relevant because that post begins with you indicating that you had avoided commenting on the topic, and the remarks are introductory, in keeping with the content of the what eventually became your post. There must have been a reason why you said "before you all come at me".

Like I said, I'm just going to agree to disagree with whether it's been edited or deleted. I'm just recalling the reason why I had privately thought it was bigoted - and what I consider offensive is something personal, and on this Politics thread it's a quite common experience for me..

Anyway I see Taylor has popped in to support that notion that human life is less valued in these regions, so I guess it's a topic.

I agree with you about the editing process. It can be a never ending struggle for some of us.

So no proof on massive claims but sticks to them anyway. Says a lot about a person when they have no proof, make massive claims and hold to them when told otherwise. Then when asked to point to something can't and just say they will keep the reasoning to themselves.

If you are going to keep that to yourself then keep the accusation about someone's character to yourself.

 

[poshman]

I think you need to put on your reading glasses, because I was stating the attitude towards life in Palestine from their legal system compared to ours.

And since I belong to OUR system that doesn't kill people for selling land to Isrealis or breaking religious laws I think I have a high enough value for human life.

If you want to get into an abortion discussion we can do that too and I assume I'd torch you on that as well in regard for human life stakes.

So kindly, respectfully, find a dark place to shove your self congratulating and self validating accusations you throw out.

Reading and comprehension have been pushed aside for personal attacks unfortunately.

You could also discuss treatment of gays in the middle east. Which has been poor world wide historically. However, is still horrendous there. But, somehow saying that would make me worse than the person who wants to ignore it.