Private Schools

[Portia]

Originally posted by Brett Li
you are asking for goverment money to subsidise a service that excludes the poorer members of soceity. try and get your head around it Portos.

What, an organization like your internet service provider, AFL football, taxis, new clothing stores, music stores, and every business in Australia?

Its not subsidising the organization. Its making sure that the money that taxpayers have paid is spent where it will actually benefit those taxpayers.

Why should someone wanting their kid to go to private school to get a better education pay not just for the full private school education, but also for another public school education which they're not even using?

Why is a public school so much more meriting of this per student funding than a private school? They're the exact same thing, except at a private school, parents voluntarily agree to put extra money in to make the school better, of their own free will. Above and beyond.

Surely this interest in education is a good thing, and not something that should be punished by a government being driven on by the bitter and jealous?

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by bunsen burner
As far as I know they aren't. I'm very sure that in the last few years Howard has increased the proportion of spending on private schools at the expense of public school funding. I was quite shocked when I saw the figures (can't remeber them though).

I think the important question on this is: is the private school funding per student taught more than the public school funding per student taught?

If its not, then its not unfair, and is weighted towards public education still.

 

[bunsen burner]

It keeps coming up that the main reason private schools are better is because people get better grades. This is probably true in many cases, but I don't think that is the most important reason people send their kids to a private school.

I can't explain what it is, but I think it is more about students getting a more rounded personal growth. Sounds stupid because I can't pinpoint what it is, but it is definately there.

 

[redback]

Originally posted by Brett Li


you are asking for goverment money to subsidise a service that excludes the poorer members of soceity. try and get your head around it Portos.

This is the essence of the argument & says it all, no need to go into bullshyte page long rhetoric, this sums it all up.

Let's give an example that some might understand more, say the government was funding cars so everyone could have a car, would you feel happy if they were giving the same amount of funding to Mercedes as they were to Holdens? knowing that only a few could afford to buy the mercedes.

 

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by Porthos
I think the important question on this is: is the private school funding per student taught more than the public school funding per student taught?

If its not, then its not unfair, and is weighted towards public education still.

I'm not sure, someone should look it up (I can't be fcuked).

Traditionally, there is usually more funding per public school student, but at the moment I think it might be the other way around. Usually they use the same principle as progressive income tax.

You're argument has it's merits, and it sounds fair, but these also sound fair, "The Govt provides the best possible education that every kid has the right to use, but if you feel that you want your child to have a better (read private) education, go the fcuk and pay for it all yourself" or "We're offering you a heavily subsidised education, and if you don't want it, then that's fine, but we aren't going to subsidise your child to go to a private school"

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Brett Li
The reason why is because we are talking about CHILDREN!. Children don't pay taxes. They don't have the choice. It is no fault of their own what schol they go to....they are the subject of this whole debate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When did I disagree with this? It certainly is no fault of theirs.

Forget about Tax-payers for one second. Private Shools are part of the two-tier education system that benefits rich-kids at the expense of those that are born of more humbnle
backgrounds.

Please reread those two sentences, and see where you're still talking about tax-payers.

Rich kids are getting educated at the expense of their parents, not the expense of other kids. Money is not coming from people from more humble backgrounds to pay for this education, it is coming from the tax paid by the parents of those kids, plus extra. If anything, there is money going the other way.

If you really want youyr kids to have a good education pay of rit in your taxes

They do, but you seem to want to make sure that the money they're paying in their taxes doesn't go towards the education of their kids, which is pretty self-evidently unfair.

and don't have this ethical cop-out and expect to be patted on the back because you "care" about your kids just cos you fork out cash to support a unmeritocratic system.

If you want an ethical copout, you should look at your first quoted paragraph. Saying `its about the children' isn't exactly an argument.

A meritocratic system is flawed if there's nothing to strive for. I could work my arse off for my kids and family, but you'd have it that there's no way I could spend my money to help them get along in life, because you don't want to see anyone educated better than anyone else.

I've met very few parents that don't care for their kids and this "care" isn't limited to whether they can or can't afford some snooty school with red uniform and brass buttons.

And now we see the real basis of your argument. Jealousy and bitterness. It doesn't cut it, matey.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by bunsen burner
You're argument has it's merits, and it sounds fair

Thats because it is fair.

but these also sound fair, "The Govt provides the best possible education that every kid has the right to use, but if you feel that you want your child to have a better (read private) education, go the fcuk and pay for it all yourself"

Thats only fair if the government made money from a source other than you paying them. The government is not giving money to education, its taking it from you. If your kids are getting educated, how is it fair that it isn't going where they're getting educated?

or "We're offering you a heavily subsidised education, and if you don't want it, then that's fine, but we aren't going to subsidise your child to go to a private school"

And that line continues "Subsidised by who? Oh, by you. We're taking your money, saying we're spending it on your kids education, and then not spending on your kids education." Again, how does that sound fair?

 

[redback]

Originally posted by Porthos
Rich kids are getting educated at the expense of their parents, not the expense of other kids. Money is not coming from people from more humble backgrounds to pay for this education, it is coming from the tax paid by the parents of those kids, plus extra. If anything, there is money going the other way.

The poorer peoples taxes are going towards private schools as well, because the government is giving funds to them from everyones tax, what part of that can't you understand.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by redback
The poorer peoples taxes are going towards private schools as well, because the government is giving funds to them from everyones tax, what part of that can't you understand.

Looks like I'll have to resort to numbers. These are made up, but should illustrate the situation.

Number of students in all schools in Australia = 600,000
Number of students in public schools = 500,000
Number of students in private schools = 100,000

Between the entire population of Australia, the education of these 600,000 is being paid for in tax.

Why should 100,000 of them receive no funding at all, when all Australians have paid for them all to be educated?

Why should parents of a private school student pay the education component of their lifelong taxation twice for their kids before receiving -any- extra benefit to their education, and how could that possibly be fair?

 

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by Brett Li


I think it's because parents like to think they're kids are getting something extra, something that not every kid is able to have., something that seperates and brings their child into an elite bracket?

are we talking about elitism here?, snobbery?, cliques? is that the thing you can't quite put your finger on?

personal growth?, my sweaty ringer

Let me give you an example. I will use sport in my example.

Stuart MacGill
Luc Longley
Tony Evans
Ashley MacIntosh
Stuart Bedford-Brown
Ben Cousins
Justin Langer
Peter Bell
Ric Charlesworth

The list goes on. These are all ex students of the Private Schools Association (PSA) in Perth. None of them were given sports scholarships. There is a strong correlation between private schools and sporting ability. Could it be coincidence? I don't think so. Is it because there are better facilities? A small factor only. So why is it that so many successful people come out of the private school system?

There is something there that isn't related to money (except for fees), and isn't related to elitism or snobbery. Private schools seem to be able to breed success. You can't blame people for sending their kids there if they can afford it.

 

[Spidergirl~RiCkChiCk]

hmm when i was in yr 7 i remember the actual school telling us that they get certain 'advantages' in the VCE system...bloody cheats i'll earn me education the honest way thanks even if it means being stupid!

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Brett Li
I see. So my Kids education ( and hence future) is a yardstick to whether I have been a success as an individual?

For a lot of people, yeah it is. Ask around, you might learn something.

We all compete, we strive, we work hard until the final reckoning. "Hey everyone, I'ma success my kid has a red uniform".

A very glib comment, and completely lacking a point other than to further illustrate your own bitterness.

I personally think there should be somethings that are sacred from a capatialist soceity and i'm afraid these are a). education and b) schooling.

Feel free to think that. Just don't try and claim that its wrong to think otherwise.

As for jealousy, I don't know that many people who have a Ph.D and speak two foreign languages fluently, I didn't have a scarlet uniform and straw hat though

You know what, I don't either. I do know that my Aunt who was educated at Murwillumbah High School has been lecturing at universities for over 15 years, despite not wearing a scarlet uniform or straw hat. Is this meant to be a point, or is this the chicken running around after its head has been cut off?

 

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by Brett Li

I see. So my Kids education ( and hence future) is a yardstick to whether I have been a success as an individual?.

You're being a bit dramatic. If you have been successful, you have the choice to send your kids to a private school.

What else do you want? Money is the currency, and if you don't have it, bad luck. If it bothers you that much, why don't you go out and earn a swag of it?

 

[redback]

Originally posted by Porthos

Why should parents of a private school student pay the education component of their lifelong taxation twice for their kids before receiving -any- extra benefit to their education, and how could that possibly be fair?

Why should poor people pay towards a kid going to a private school, point is every kid can go to a public school, not every kid can go to a private school, government puts public schooling there which you have paid for, if you CHOOSE not to take advantage of that & want to go use a private school then pay, but don't ask poor people to subsidise an elitist institution.

 

[bunsen burner]

Originally posted by Brett Li

I personally think there should be somethings that are sacred from a capatialist soceity and i'm afraid these are a). education and b) schooling.

A fair point, but how do you propose to fix this problem?

** Just remember, by increasing spending to up the standard of public schools won't solve the problem. It can only really truly be fixed if public and private schools are equal (or if private schools are eliminated).

I just want to know why you're so hung up about something that can't be fixed?

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by redback
Why should poor people pay towards a kid going to a private school, point is every kid can go to a public school, not every kid can go to a private school, government puts public schooling there which you have paid for, if you CHOOSE not to take advantage of that & want to go use a private school then pay, but don't ask poor people to subsidise an elitist institution.

You really don't get this at all, do you?

Poor people aren't subsidising private schools at all. The money that is going towards per head funding of students at those schools is -easily- covered by the tax paid by parents of those student over their lifetimes, and more.

Poor people pay less tax, in amount, and in percentage, but the basic education per student cost remains the same. The poor are having their kids education subsidised by the rich, if anything, because the rich are paying a lot more for the exact same services.....and people in this thread want to actually make sure that they get -less- services too, by pulling all tax distribution from private schools, in (get this) the name of fairness!

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Brett Li
Using the Bitterness/Jealousy "cheapshot" because I find the Private School system unfair? excellent argument Porthos

What a joke. You make an entire post about scarlet uniforms and straw hats, make no actual points and respond to none of mine that floor your argument completely, and then accuse me of cheap shots when I point out that you actually have nothing to stand on?

If I'm calling you bitter, its because everything you're posting is proclaiming you to be so. A lot of vitriol, and bugger all reasoning.

Anyway, good night. Try not to have a bilious attack while you sleep.

 

[Bee]

Originally posted by Spidergirl~RiCkChiCk
I found the people there to be the most pathetic people i had ever met (actually 2nd most) Those who had already came through the primary years there were already in their cliques and were the rudest bunch of bitches. Too much focus was on sport and the type of car your parents drove.

Well thank you very much for insulting most of my friends and me.
I came through primary school with a couple of friends and went on to senior school together. In fact we are still the best of friends. I don't ever recall discussions about what type of car our parents drove or anything at all that may have categorised us as 'a bunch of rude bitches'. Your perception is based on your very short experience at a private school. Because you found it hard to fit in to that environment, doesn't mean everyone at a private school is pathetic or rude. I don't think I have ever been rude and I am a certain I am not pathetic.

Originally posted by Spidergirl~RiCkChiCk

There is no way that these people could survive out in the real world.

I have survived very well out in the real world, thanks. I have two uni degrees, one of which lead me to a job I love and am extremely well paid for. I have a wide circle of friends (some even went to state schools ). I can hold my own in conversations and debates on any subject. I mix with and liaise with politicians, business people, sports people and 'check out chicks'. I have my own home, my own car, and a very happy lifestyle. I think I am surving just fine in the real world. But here's a tip. Surving in the real world is a lot more than buying designer underwear, bleaching your hair and perving on footballers.

Originally posted by Spidergirl~RiCkChiCk

Had i stayed at private school i may well have had a spot at university now

Excuse me? You don't just get a spot at university. You have to earn it first. What are you saying? Private school students get an automatic place at uni?

I don't think I am any better than anyone else simply because I went to a private school. I don't judge anyone on their job, their education or the bloody car they drive. But when anyone tries to class me or my friends, who just happen to be quality people, into a category of rude and pathetic because of the school we went to I have to start questioning just who is the snob.

 

[Rohan_]

I always found the girls at Private schools to be far more stuck up than the boys. Lucky I went to a all boys Private school.

 

[Port1978]

In my final year at high school I was told that there was a higher drop-out rate from Universities from students who had been to Private schools than students who had been to public schools. Probably because the private school students were used to being spoon fed, which just doesn't happen in Uni!

 

[myee8]

Stuff all this argument about whether private schools are better than public schools in terms of providing an education or whatever. Like a previous message posted by me, in general i just like private and catholic school girls. It's something to do with those uniforms they wear... Sure it's not a short skirt or a figure-hugging top, but something about their uniforms does it for me!

 

[Satay Mat]

Originally posted by port1978


Marryatville High in Adelaide...you know it?

did year 12 there in 1989...good school.

 

[Rohan_]

Originally posted by port1978
In my final year at high school I was told that there was a higher drop-out rate from Universities from students who had been to Private schools

True but that isn't a bad thing. Nearly everyone in our year got a University place but true to your statement, a fair amount of people dropped out.

However as opposed to public schools, a huge majority are employed. I know every member of our year is either in a full or part-time job.

Although I have two degrees, the worth of University is very overrated.

 

[Danny Chook Fan Club]

Originally posted by Rohan_
Although I have two degrees, the worth of University is very overrated.

The actual education is. However, the opportunities a university degree affords people who would otherwise not get them makes the process worthwhile.

 

[Rohan_]

Originally posted by Danny Chook Fan Club
The actual education is. However, the opportunities a university degree affords people who would otherwise not get them makes the process worthwhile.

The only thing University gives you is options as you say. Learning a trade of getting some life experience is just as valuable.