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falkstar

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St Kilda
Here are my 2 cents, like them or not, I must get this out. I'm not writing off the season, but we must also have an eye on 2008 and beyond.

Here is what we need to do for the future. Forget Thomas, forget the poor recruiting / list management etc, thats done.

Give Luke Ball the rest of the year off, giving him some chance to shake off OP stuff, no pace, no penetration. If he will never get this back via operation etc, then we are screwed as our midfield is one of the worst. If he never gets back to his 2004/05 form then its the biggest tragedy ever. I'd rather him retire then see this shadow of a young man stagger around. Great heart, but that won't cut it.

Time to restructure forward line. Milne GONE, can't tackle, so not interested in seeing him in a saints jumper. His form in big games is so bad, great front runner, but unless we get the best 17 players in AFL around him, then bye bye.

Play Sweeney for rest of the year, find out if he can play, regardless of form. The same with Watts, big investment, lets see some return.

Play X in forward line as he can tackle, don't play Raph for a month as he was so underdone it was sad.

If Gardener gets right, play him, so we can find out if he is ready for 2008, same with Hamill. If bothor either fall over, show door.

Leave Kosi in ruck, best suited there and then push forward on crap opponents, but too cumbersome for permanant forward.

Keep playing the kids (what we have anyway)
Gilbert could be a player on the wing, but will need experience to learn the game, have liked what i've seen, though kicking is awkward, can tackle.

Armitage, shocker of a game, but is a top ten pick, so expectations is that he is a 10 year player, give him a block of 5 games, see how he goes without fear of getting dropped. Should play in front of Thompson from a future perspective.

Now you can't turn over half a list in a year, and i'm not saying we need to, but there are players who have to go, or will retire, these retirements will impact on who gets the lemon and sars. Who is potentially a premiership layer? Well I'll tell you who aint and may be out at the end of 2007

Now bare in mind that players drafted in national drafts are to be given 2 years in the system as a minimum contract, so Birss, Ferguson to be retained.

Hamill (from an injury perspective only)
Thompson (most likely retirement)
Gehrig (Has a role, but does he want to play next year?Hope so)
Voss (Game passed him buy? or just out of favour and therefore delisting?)
Gardener (injuries and rumours suggest we may not see him ever.)
Brooks (Big Talent, Zero Heart, bye, bye. He shows no interest in AFL)
Blake (Liked some of his performances as a 30th on the list, but decision making and skills off AFL level)
M.Clarke (Retired)
Rix (May be needed if Gardener Brooks get chop, great 5th string ruckman)
McQualter (Was impressed by his first year, reckon he needs to be given the rest of the year and told to back himself, no run with roles, can he play yes or no. I say his kicking is not up to AFL)
Raymond (A late pick in a poor draft and has done nada, zero potential)
Harvey (Well he can't go on forever, lets pray he does)
Milne (Bye)

That is 13, far too many to turn over. If all the injured ones get up for 2008 and Harvey, Gehrig go on, keep Blake Rix, thats still about the 6 you would get rid of in a bad year.

Now Gwilt needs another year, but on a flank, not full back (appreciate injuries have forced him there, but would doubt he has a future.Birss will be gone as he is slow and those who don't retire will also be out at end of 2008, so some big changes to come.

If it looks like the 8 is gone out of the equation (which could happen), we must think 2008. Big Pre-season.

Now, i'm sick of game plan this and that. To play good footy you must enjoy yourself and play for each other, back yourself, this comes through winning and having your best team on the park. If Lyon had no injuries and we had everyone super fit, the game style wouldn't be noticed. We would just see great pressure and run and support, which looks attacking and spectacular.
STop over analysing, it aint the game plan, its our attitude, skill and fitness.

On saintsational whinge (still living in the past all those freaks) they are asking is this like 1999 or 2003? Its neither, its 2007. Has the window closed? There is no window, no clock, just opportunity. Yeah it would be romantic for Harves to win a Norm Smith at 36, but thats a dream, not reality.

Good Luck Saints for the rest of 2007, Just enjoy yourselves.
 
Jeez, I just dont understand Saints supporters who are ready to cut Milne loose because he isnt a package of Ablett/Johnson/Davey all in a # 44 guernsey.

He averages two goals a game, gives plenty off - and demands the best small defender each week.

I think he is battling a bit under the new game plan where the ball isnt brought in quickly to the big forwards, therefore giving opposition teams time to clog up the forward 50, which means less room for him to work in. But Fraser is in the same canoe there.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but goal kicking forwards dont grow on trees.
 
True, the game plan is not working at the moment, and the usual injuries have happened to the Saints in more than the "fair share". Many people will not be happy with your list of outs, but I agree with some of them, not all of them.

As for Milne, he's only still there because Grant Thomas is not. The several times I've heard Grant say as much on radio seem to prove that. His form this year in particular can best be described as indifferent. Agreed, he must go.

I agree with your views on Sweeney and X. As for Raph, he was underdone, so not a fair judgment yet. Give him a bit more time, say a couple of weeks, and then put the knife in if need be.

Gardiner hasn't had any luck since moving East, and Sammy broke a mirror in 2001, which means his seven years of bad luck are almost over. (Fingers crossed, or I will not renew my $500 membership).

Kosi for the ruck, and only in the forward line IF absolutely necessary. I stress, IF.

Gilbert keeps plugging away and could show some good things if given more game time.

Fiora seems to be improving, and that is a good thing.

Hopefully the Saints on the weekend were just another victim of the Geelong juggernaut, which will once again run out of steam (due to lack of ability and true talent) v injuries, as it has always done, in that sacred footy month of September. For it must be said, major injuries to major stars, has been the only thing stopping the saints from winning that elusive silverware.
 
STop over analysing, it aint the game plan, its our attitude, skill and fitness.

Bravo falkstar!!!

I agree with most of your comments.

Our list is severely overrated and is in desparate need on a bit of an overhaul.

I agree that in general we need to play the kids (sweeney, armitage and gilbert) ahead guys like thompson, mcqualter (hes had many many chances) etc.

The thing is, if we do keep playing these kids then we are going to have more losses and therefore are a good chance to miss finals. And hopefully the stkilda board realises that with injuries and a lop-sided list that this is the only way to go in order to be better in the near future.

I don't agree that we should rest Bally for the rest of the year. Simply because we don't have anyone to replace him and would get smashed in the midfield even more without him. I actually thought he played a good game against the cats (well for the first half anyway).

The way i see our list is like this:
We have a great core of very good players (dal, rooey, bj etc) who are still pretty young. But after that our list drops off significantly (guys that are too injury-prone or guys that just aren't up to AFL standard). The core of very good players will get wasted if we don't develop some young guys that can help them and share the load of responsibility.

I still reckon we are a fair chance to make finals but that does not mean that our list really needs a big look at in order for us to go forward.
 

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Any team with the amount of injuries we've suffered (especially to your 3 key defenders) will always expose your list's depth.

There's nothing wrong with our top 25 players. I suppose it drops off a bit from there, but every list does. It's how the salary cap and draft system works. You just can't fit 30 very good players into an AFL list.

Sure there are some players who have been exposed a bit, but around full strength our ability to cover injuries would be pretty good. I think our list isn't as bad as people are advocating and if we hadn't had all of these injuries we wouldn't even be talking about list depth and the like.

People are talking about a clean out at the end of the year. Perhaps there are some players who arn't up to it. But when was the last time someone cleaned out their list and had a ripper year the next? If we lost harvey, thompson, milne, voss, blake, mcqualter, fiora, gwilt etc.. and then had some injuries next year - we'd be proper f&$%ed. It would take a season or 2 (20-30 games) for the kids coming through to develop.
 
In terms of list management - firstly, if you're reading this StKildonian, could you produce a list of who is out of contract at the end of the year?

Secondly - Gram, X Clarke, L Fisher, Hayes, Montagna, Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Gilbert, Armitage, Koschitzke, S Fisher, Dal Santo, Maguire - all efforts to be made the ensure all these players are still at the club next year.

Thirdly - this years first year players all have two year deals - Howard & Allen.

Fourthly - the two rookie elevations have done enough - C Jones & Attard.

Fifthly - the possible retirements are Hamill, Thompson, Hudghton, Gehrig, Voss, Gardiner, M Clarke & Harvey

Which leaves us with the make or break group, about which decisions must be made - Watts, Baker (last two weeks have been dreadful), R Clarke, Fiora, Ferguson, Birss, Brooks, Blake, Rix, McQualter, Gwilt, Raymond & Sweeney.

Personally I'd rank these guys in terms of my desire to keep them as:

R Clarke
Watts
Baker
Blake
Gwilt
McQualter
Brooks
Sweeney
Birss
Fiora
Rix
Raymond
Ferguson

Plenty to go on with.
 
In terms of list management - firstly, if you're reading this StKildonian, could you produce a list of who is out of contract at the end of the year?

Secondly - Gram, X Clarke, L Fisher, Hayes, Montagna, Riewoldt, Ball, Goddard, Gilbert, Armitage, Koschitzke, S Fisher, Dal Santo, Maguire - all efforts to be made the ensure all these players are still at the club next year.

Thirdly - this years first year players all have two year deals - Howard & Allen.

Fourthly - the two rookie elevations have done enough - C Jones & Attard.

Fifthly - the possible retirements are Hamill, Thompson, Hudghton, Gehrig, Voss, Gardiner, M Clarke & Harvey

Which leaves us with the make or break group, about which decisions must be made - Watts, Baker (last two weeks have been dreadful), R Clarke, Fiora, Ferguson, Birss, Brooks, Blake, Rix, McQualter, Gwilt, Raymond & Sweeney.

Personally I'd rank these guys in terms of my desire to keep them as:

R Clarke
Watts
Baker
Blake
Gwilt
McQualter
Brooks
Sweeney
Birss
Fiora
Rix
Raymond
Ferguson

Plenty to go on with.

hamill has 1 more year to go on his 5 year contract.
 
Great post, falkstar.

Some random replies:
Milne - I'm starting to agree. I have said before that two of our biggest losses over the past 3 weeks have been X Clarke and Clint Jones because they were both laying tackles in our forward 50 and creating goals. That kind of goal creation is a whole lot more valuable than the Milne type of goal creation (shark a loose ball or get a possession from someone else). The way the ball has ricocheted out of our forward line in the last 2 weeks has been painful and embarrassing. If we are going to have a lot of talls, our smalls must be able to tackle.
Ball - was horrible to watch him on Sunday night, and he wasn't great in Perth but had been good before that, so is he injured, or is it something else?
Kosi - yes, am warming to him in the ruck. He was sensational on Sunday night.
Playing the kids - hmmm. Not prepared to do a Terry Wallace just yet. We are likely to be 4 and 8 at the break unless we knock off North, but you couldn't rule out a second half charge. I'm willing to give this season a crack as our players start to come back and get fit.
 
As sad as it may sound, Hamill can stay a saint in 2008, regardless of what he does this year (contract) Thats the disadvantage of signing five year deals.

I agree it's more attitude than game plan. Although it's a bit of both probably. Make or break game this week.
 
A win this week and saints are 5-6..... Geelong has won 5 in a row and are nearly flag favorite. Given the injuries and a new coach who consedes he didnt expect it to gell right away i dont see why every one is stressing, sure not the best start but its not over yet. As for falkstar paying out on Beveridge and his recruiting what has he done wrong? I would have thought even given our many many early draft picks he has done a real good job.
 
A. With the list we have - which idiot thinks we shouldn't be in a PF?
B. Our team was devastated by injuries even last year and still made the 8. Why is it not even close to now?


Our team as it is is ****** with the current plan. No other words about it.


When Grant Thomas was our coach - even at the best of times and at our peak in 2004, we never won a game where we were down by 21 points or more.

With Lyon at our helm... we are down about 18-20 points by the end of 1st quarter generally and get flogged thereafter. His suckshit gameplan means we lose, lose and lose even more. It feels like we are playing the game to play his gameplan rather than actually try and win. What a ridiculous idiotic moron!!!!

Down with the ********!!!
 
A win this week and saints are 5-6..... Geelong has won 5 in a row and are nearly flag favorite. Given the injuries and a new coach who consedes he didnt expect it to gell right away i dont see why every one is stressing, sure not the best start but its not over yet. As for falkstar paying out on Beveridge and his recruiting what has he done wrong? I would have thought even given our many many early draft picks he has done a real good job.

You're right Jesbo - its not crisis time especially if we win this week. We went with the 'form team' of the comp for 3 quarters on sunday night with only 3 on the bench - so there were defenitely a lot of positives. I think that RL and his staff have done an admirable job given the injuries we've had and the lack of continuity in our line-ups this year.

However, we have lost significant ground on the leaders of the competition. And when you're not in the mix for a premiership you have to analyse what you have to do to get back there.

I agree that John Beveridge has done a great job over a number of years. Even the best of recruitment staff can get it wrong from time to time but overall hes done very well.
 

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Which leaves us with the make or break group, about which decisions must be made - Watts, Baker (last two weeks have been dreadful), R Clarke, Fiora, Ferguson, Birss, Brooks, Blake, Rix, McQualter, Gwilt, Raymond & Sweeney.

Personally I'd rank these guys in terms of my desire to keep them as:

R Clarke
Watts
Baker
Blake
Gwilt
McQualter
Brooks
Sweeney
Birss
Fiora
Rix
Raymond
Ferguson

Plenty to go on with.

My ranking...
Baker (in the top half-dozen taggers in the game)
Gwilt
Sweeney (needs an extended chance in the seniors)
Blake
Watts
R Clarke (trade bait?)
Ferguson
Fiora
Birss
McQualter (trade bait?)
Brooks
Raymond (never seen him play tho)
Rix
 

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