Preview Rnd 4 - Carlton v Gold Coast, Saturday 10th Apr Metricon Stadium 7:25pm - Team post #931

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OldBlueFan said:
Please ... Paddy was on him for a good 3 or 4 steps which has been interpreted as "prior opportunity" for the last 10 years. Then, having had prior opportunity, the player dropped the ball (how or why is immaterial). Even the commentators made the point that it was an obvious free kick.

Here's the rule reference for you: https://websites.sportstg.com/assoc_page.cgi?c=1-7804-0-0-0&sID=322333#:~:text=4.1 A player in possession,shall be awarded against the



(excuse the stupid swear filter bypass because it can't interpret a valid use of the word R_E_T_A_R_D)
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Should probably go by the AFL rules, not the rules updates for AFL Masters.


17.6.3 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Incorrect Disposal Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity, a Free Kick shall be awarded if that Player elects to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled. For the avoidance of doubt, a Player does not elect to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when: (a) the Player genuinely attempts to Correctly Dispose of the football; (b) the Legal Tackle causes the football to be dislodged from the Player’s possession


I'll also happily disregard what the commentators have to say on the matter in most cases, they get it wrong on a regular basis.
 

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McGovern like any other player needs to earn their spot. Playing 2 quarters in the VFL doesn't cut it. If the MC are stupid enough to bring him in after such game time and output then we are going no-where as a team, especially after the previous result. Casboult might not be clunking them right now but he offers so much more to the team and McGovern is not his direct replacement.

McGovern will never afford Harry the luxury of taking another KP defender, he would never allow JSoS to play the same role he played on the weekend to support the 2 bigger fellas and do what JSoS does best and McGovern can't ruck. So in essence, if we where to bring in McGovern we will be destabilising the current 'working' setup. Insanity to even contemplate.

Oscar McDonald would be the correct replacement for Casboult but I think the MC will do the right thing and not replace Cassy, just yet. He is improving and getting the match practise he needs and I wouldn't be surprised if this week, he clunks them!!
 
Blue__Balls said:
Might want to rewatch it - Paddy was tackling but the Freo player was able to get the ball in a position from which he could kick it, however it was then knocked loose by one of his own teammates. Don't think that's a free kick under any rule.
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If it’s the tackle I think it was (on Colyer from memory) it was incorrect disposal.
 
SurreyBlue said:
McGovern like any other player needs to earn their spot. Playing 2 quarters in the VFL doesn't cut it. If the MC are stupid enough to bring him in after such game time and output then we are going no-where as a team, especially after the previous result. Casboult might not be clunking them right now but he offers so much more to the team and McGovern is not his direct replacement.

McGovern will never afford Harry the luxury of taking another KP defender, he would never allow JSoS to play the same role he played on the weekend to support the 2 bigger fellas and do what JSoS does best and McGovern can't ruck. So in essence, if we where to bring in McGovern we will be destabilising the current 'working' setup. Insanity to even contemplate.

Oscar McDonald would be the correct replacement for Casboult but I think the MC will do the right thing and not replace Cassy, just yet. He is improving and getting the match practise he needs and I wouldn't be surprised if this week, he clunks them!!
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It’s Casboult for mine too. With Oscar the replacement if he needs to be managed.
 
JustaBattler said:
I know what you mean but this this notion of "AFL tackles" is rubbish to me - a tackle is a tackle and a an attempted one armer is a grapple...I dont like them because of chicken wing injury, sling results - as well as ineffectiveness

AFL players can make proper tackles anywhere from shoulder to knee - they are proper tackles - players are too much encouraged to go the grab an arm and try for free for incorrect disposal - which is always going to be dicey unless the tackled player goes to ground - given ump needs to be a) sighted and b) in the mood to give one...

In fact Dow made a very strong front on tackle to a running player out of a stoppage in the game ( Q3 early) but collected the player a tad high according to ump - really enjoyed that one - what you are referring to is typical AFL rubbish - nuff nuffery soft wishy washy nothingness as far as real tackling goes - and the great thing about proper tackling is that smaller blokes can bring down bigger blokes if they understand technique - with less chance of hurting themselves...
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All well and good, but are you making allowances for a player who's already running beside or slightly behind a player who collects/receives the ball (as Dow was in the tackle that I was discussing)? It's not as black an white as rugby where players are most often meeting each other front-on (a-la your example). Players running in the same direction as the the player they're tackling, and from close quarters can do little more than "wrap them up" and hope to bring them to ground without allowing a legal disposal.

So while this scenario might not fit your "real man" tackling preferences, it's often one that plays out in the AFL.
 
Magruder said:
If it’s the tackle I think it was (on Colyer from memory) it was incorrect disposal.
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I've rewatched it multiple times, including in slow motion.

Freo player got his arms free, went to drop the ball to his boot, and a teammate running past knocked it out of his hands.

A ball knocked loose like that isn't deemed to be incorreect disposal.
 
Can't remember who was asking a few days ago about a good pub to watch the game Saturday night.

Just received this email from the Club:-


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Magruder said:
It’s Casboult for mine too. With Oscar the replacement if he needs to be managed.
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Also - Casboult missed a fair chunk of the new year preseason due to injury. We are 3 games in and the MC played him R1, which shows they have faith in him getting some fitness up and then producing. I would say they will play him. If he doesn't come good in another 2 to 4 weeks, then they might reassess but he is an integral part of our team. DeKoning might have something to say about that but for now, he plays.

He'll come good and the same posters will be telling us how vital he is to our team as 2nd ruck, KP back & forward, etc....
 

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I bleed Blue said:
I do acknowledge the tackle. It was a solid tackle in the end.

But he did have the chance to get to the ball first if he wanted to. I understand why he didn't because hw has been smashed a few times in the past.

But its not a one off incident. Its becoming a pattern of behaviour
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You said your opinion was based on seeing it live, so please look at it again, I don't think the bolded bit is correct at all. You're not taking into account relative speeds.

My point about acknowledgement is the difference in what each of us saw. I saw this incident and immediately thought "geez, that was strong tackle by Murph, on a much larger guy, moving at speed". You saw the same incident and your immediate impression (even though it's not backed up by the vision) was "oh, Murph took a short step there, he could have got to that ball first".

The fact that Murph was willing to wear contact of the sort that occurred here should be evidence enough for people that maybe, just maybe, he's not as soft as they prefer to believe. And his approach to other/similar situations is based on judgement and how he thinks he might best affect a given piece of play. Instead most people prefer to interpret everything as "he's soft and offers nothing defensively", therefore that's what they see.
 
Blue__Balls said:
Not true at all - those tackles won the ball back directly on a number of occasions and the constant pressure forced plenty of rushed kicks for Jones, Doc, Plow, Parks and co to intercept.
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I didn't mean that at all, subtext was you shouldn't expect to win the tackle count when you dominate as much as we did that round. Obviously they're still important.
 
Blue__Balls said:
Should probably go by the AFL rules, not the rules updates for AFL Masters.


17.6.3 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Incorrect Disposal Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity, a Free Kick shall be awarded if that Player elects to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled. For the avoidance of doubt, a Player does not elect to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when: (a) the Player genuinely attempts to Correctly Dispose of the football; (b) the Legal Tackle causes the football to be dislodged from the Player’s possession

I'll also happily disregard what the commentators have to say on the matter in most cases, they get it wrong on a regular basis.
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Ummmm, are you noting the bolded bit? We are talking about a player who DID have prior opportunity.

But your quoting of the rule serves to highlight the farce that the AFL make of their own rules. Why even include a clause that says "the Player genuinely attempts to Correctly Dispose of the football". Who the f**k knows whether they made a genuine attempt? It's totally open to interpretation. The only qualifying clause to the illegal disposal rule should be part (b), which I think you'll find has always been present. This new interpretive form of the rule is a joke and completely open to human error and bias.
 
mochacinolatte said:
That's a bit of reach. Never claim that we should run with 2 taggers. Few magnets move could see Curnow play normal midfield minutes.

Some of the best midfielders in the comp play as taggers in their development years.

Just because you become a tagger doesnt stunt a young player's development.

Jack Steele
Stephen Cognilio
Tom Mitchell
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Mitchell didn't play as a tagger, ever and steele is still useless in any role except tagging big bodied mids Cripps. You miss the point of my reply though, but on the point you made. Some of the best learnt by playing head 2 head with good opponents, not by playing negative tagging roles on them so much.

Giving Ed normal midfield minutes so Dow can tag is silly. Ed is not good playing loose and Dow ball watches. You want Dow to move into the midfield as the core tagger? Fine but he'll get smoked. It's not the sort of player he is. He's a ball hunter. Has to be released to just hunt the ball you can see it in him he just slows down far too much when he has to be accountable. Completely the opposite of Ed who is much better as a negator being led to the footy then winning it instead of his opponent. Dow's development will hopefully continue and continue well but playing him as a tagger won't help him, Ed or the team balance whatsoever.
 
CJMB said:
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Our disposal numbers were 1355 higher, our possession time was 140% higher & our tackle count was 76% of theirs, meaning their tackle count was 132% of ours which pretty much aligns perfectly to our higher disposals and time in possession.

After round 2 I believe we'd averaged 39 tackles, so 47 is up 120% and we'd averaged 362 disposals so 428 is 118% up too. Pretty solid improvement.
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We made the ground smaller. Easier to tackle your opponent when you aren't spreading to the far corners of the earth every time you think Crippa has won possession, even if he hasn't.
 
OldBlueFan said:
All well and good, but are you making allowances for a player who's already running beside or slightly behind a player who collects/receives the ball (as Dow was in the tackle that I was discussing)? It's not as black an white as rugby where players are most often meeting each other front-on (a-la your example). Players running in the same direction as the the player they're tackling, and from close quarters can do little more than "wrap them up" and hope to bring them to ground without allowing a legal disposal.

So while this scenario might not fit your "real man" tackling preferences, it's often one that plays out in the AFL.
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You use the phrase 'real man tackling preference' pejoratively ( I find that insinuation amusing ) - I've explained my reasoning - refer to that - and as an aside , no need for sexist terminology, women are quite capable and in fact do execute proper tackling techniques in a variety of sports- including AFL.

Tackles can be employed front on/side on/and from behind as for close quarters that is an ideal set-up for one stopper holding the bloke up and the next player to actually go in hard into the ribcage - tackling is an offensive weapon in any team's arsenal and coaches and players who refuse to understand this basic - are depriving their teams and their team mates of competitive options.

After playing rugby at very high levels and coaching the same with more than a modicum of succes at high levels I understand the nuances of close quarter engagement very well - AFL is not significantly different to other contact sports- as far as tackling goes - save for the latitude it allows for umpire 'interpretation' and the difficulty involved in umpiring congestion with nonsense rules like correct V incorrect disposal - rules which are ignored at the convenience of the umpire many many many times over in every game we watch - as you would well know - and being a believer in simplifying complexity- I would coach players to tackle first and not worry about trying to beg for an incorrect disposal - which is always the beggar at the table of umpire discretion and interpretation.
 
Accidental genius said:
I’m a bit surprised with his tackling numbers. I dont recall him tackling that many times. I don’t recall even 1 tbh.

Do you get a tackling stat if you assist in a tackle primarily laid by a team mate?
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No. You get a tackle stat if you are the reason the ball is locked up and bounced or incorrectly disposed.

However.... There's an old video I'm trying to find and unfortunately can't of a dustin Martin game looking at the 7 tackles he was credited for in the stats. 5 of them were 1 armed brush off nonsense 1 was a tackle and 1 the opposing player disposed correctly anyway. So the afl produced stats are fairly subjective in a sense and clearly favour the better players. Wish I could find that damn video.
 
OldBlueFan said:
Ummmm, are you noting the bolded bit? We are talking about a player who DID have prior opportunity.

But your quoting of the rule serves to highlight the farce that the AFL make of their own rules. Why even include a clause that says "the Player genuinely attempts to Correctly Dispose of the football". Who the f**k knows whether they made a genuine attempt? It's totally open to interpretation. The only qualifying clause to the illegal disposal rule should be part (b), which I think you'll find has always been present. This new interpretive form of the rule is a joke and completely open to human error and bias.
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Yeah I've noted that, but the whole second half of the paragraph goes on to say what doesn't constitute incorrect disposal - which includes the ball being knocked loose by another player.

The prior opportunity bit is only one factor.

The example we're discussing had the player given prior opportunity, tackled fairly, attempting to make a correct disposal but having the ball knocked loose by another player.

By the rules, not a free.
 
SkyhorseTamer said:
Mitchell didn't play as a tagger, ever and steele is still useless in any role except tagging big bodied mids Cripps. You miss the point of my reply though, but on the point you made. Some of the best learnt by playing head 2 head with good opponents, not by playing negative tagging roles on them so much.

Giving Ed normal midfield minutes so Dow can tag is silly. Ed is not good playing loose and Dow ball watches. You want Dow to move into the midfield as the core tagger? Fine but he'll get smoked. It's not the sort of player he is. He's a ball hunter. Has to be released to just hunt the ball you can see it in him he just slows down far too much when he has to be accountable. Completely the opposite of Ed who is much better as a negator being led to the footy then winning it instead of his opponent. Dow's development will hopefully continue and continue well but playing him as a tagger won't help him, Ed or the team balance whatsoever.
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"So you want to play 2 taggers? Or drop Ed and let Dow flounder in his inability to match the best in the comp for strength and fitness the way Ed does and the roll on effect that'll have for our games. Incredibly bad idea if you want to win games.

Dow should have 2 options - see ba hunt ball mode or develop in the 2s mode. Nothing else."

What was point you were trying to come across? I addressed the the benefits of Dow's development role playing as a tagger. Being a tagger shouldn't have a negative connotations as it teaches a young player how hard they need to work to win the ball and learn new skills running with the best player in the competition. As I highlighted in in my post in response to somesone else.

"Yes while I agree Ed Curnow is one of the best shut down mids in the comps, doesn't help in 2-3 years if Ed is still around, why not allow Dow play some of Ed's midfield minutes and if that doesn't pan out no reason to make the changes throughout the game. "

Tom Mitchell play as a tagger role in his early years - He is now a Brownlow Medalist and wins the pill.
Stephen Coniglio play as a tagger in his early years - become a goal kicking midfielder before injury struck him.
"steele is still useless in any role except tagging big bodied mids Cripps." Jack Steele is become a premier midfielder, have you seen his last 3 weeks.

"Some of the best learnt by playing head 2 head with good opponents, not by playing negative tagging roles on them so much." Tagging and playing Head to Head is pretty similar in concept.
 
Blue__Balls said:
I've rewatched it multiple times, including in slow motion.

Freo player got his arms free, went to drop the ball to his boot, and a teammate running past knocked it out of his hands.

A ball knocked loose like that isn't deemed to be incorreect disposal.
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Ok, happy to take that on board. At the time it felt like he handed it to his teammate, sort of like you might in union.

I certainly haven’t rewatched it so quite content to defer to your analysis.
 
Magruder said:
Ok, happy to take that on board. At the time it felt like he handed it to his teammate, sort of like you might in union.

I certainly haven’t rewatched it so quite content to defer to your analysis.
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All good, whoever it was who flagged it mentioned that it lead to Freo's third goal, made it easy for me to log into Kayo and take a proper look ;)

Definitely wouldn't have been trawling through the whole match to find it otherwise.
 
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