Round 13 changes

[martinson]

Being at the game I witnessed Answerth, Froggy and Harris working hard unlike others....Answerth skills may not be perfect but give me a guy willing to give his 100% effort over a skillfull dude giving 65%.

I'll fess up to being a constant non believer in Answerth for some time but you have to be impressed by the way he cracks in whatever the circumstances and the improvement in his skills and composure which tbf had a lot of improving to do.

I suppose Starc is better than him but the way we're going I'd be very reluctant to dump Answerth.

 

[Lazza16]

Not a negative question but How is Fletcher holding up ?
I ask this as he has moments, performs a role, seems solid but not dynamic… sure many of the reviewers on this site would have had a closer look at his efforts and use.

Hasn't come on as expected but other's in the exit queue before he.

 

[Lazza16]

All things come to pass. Not what I would do, but right now Lyons is a better option than Rayner.

Lyons can't play forward has been the call the last few years but 4 goals in the 2s and a competition BnF is hard to ignore.

 

[braddsey]

Not in 2s, no. Lyons wins hardball in the center bounce and he's a level above in 2s for that craft. Lazy 30+ possessions like Matho used to do. Rayner has never done it properly in both 1s or 2s, he'll be an enigma there too.

Lyons, while slow, still puts in the effort to find footy. Rayner's problem will be effort for all 4 quarters.

I may be wrong, but I don't recall Cam Rayner ever playing a reserves match. I have no doubt he could go down and do what Matho and Lyons do.

 

[McIvor]

You don't think Rayner could match Lyons output in the 2s?

I don’t, no.

I suspect Fagan and Co would be vary that he won’t stand out and potentially will make him more fragile being exposed at that level.

Cam relies on others doing the work for him so can very much see him struggling at that level.

 

[pod17]

We were unfortunate that there was not a standout number one candidate in 2017. Walsh, Reid, Weitering etc were all spoken about as a guarantee across their final year. Rayner seemed to be settled on late in the piece.

That being said the signs were there that Rayner’s professional was an issue. His time trial was deplorable, and his output playing TAC didn’t scream midfield potential.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but Brayshaw in our midfield would make for a far more complete on ball brigade. Rayner’s output on the weekend was nothing short of unacceptable, and can no longer be ignored.

 

[Tom14]

We were unfortunate that there was not a standout number one candidate in 2017. Walsh, Reid, Weitering etc were all spoken about as a guarantee across their final year. Rayner seemed to be settled on late in the piece.

That being said the signs were there that Rayner’s professional was an issue. His time trial was deplorable, and his output playing TAC didn’t scream midfield potential.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but Brayshaw in our midfield would make for a far more complete on ball brigade. Rayner’s output on the weekend was nothing short of unacceptable, and can no longer be ignored.

Worth noting as well that despite being the standout number 1 picks, I'd have both walsh and weitering in the 'very good' not great level of performance competition wide. I'd rather have at minimum 3 players over walsh (Rozee, butters and I think Rankine can be more damaging than him) and if the King brothers ever actually improve I'd take them too.

Weitering is good but not elite imo. Plenty of players in that draft I'd say would be pick 1 over him if there was a re-draft - Oliver, Curnow, even Jordan Dawson.

Most years there isn't a standout number 1 that then turns into the best player from that draft. All it offers is the chance to pick a good player, and Cam hasn't show that consistency. If I was able to re-pick with hindsight from 2017, I think the best player from the draft is probably Sam Taylor who went in the 20s.

Point being, the draft sucks, having the wooden spoon sucks, and its all a crapshoot at a certain point.

 

[pod17]

Worth noting as well that despite being the standout number 1 picks, I'd have both walsh and weitering in the 'very good' not great level of performance competition wide. I'd rather have at minimum 3 players over walsh (Rozee, butters and I think Rankine can be more damaging than him) and if the King brothers ever actually improve I'd take them too.

Weitering is good but not elite imo. Plenty of players in that draft I'd say would be pick 1 over him if there was a re-draft - Oliver, Curnow, even Jordan Dawson.

Most years there isn't a standout number 1 that then turns into the best player from that draft. All it offers is the chance to pick a good player, and Cam hasn't show that consistency. If I was able to re-pick with hindsight from 2017, I think the best player from the draft is probably Sam Taylor who went in the 20s.

Point being, the draft sucks, having the wooden spoon sucks, and its all a crapshoot at a certain point.

Agree with a lot of the above though I think Weitering is elite (if not very, very close). Walsh too is very good, with elite qualities like his aerobic capacity and training standards/professionalism. This would be a positive simply from a role modelling of required behaviours point of view - again not something I’m sure Cam would ever bring.

 

[Tom14]

Agree with a lot of the above though I think Weitering is elite (if not very, very close). Walsh too is very good, with elite qualities like his aerobic capacity and training standards/professionalism. This would be a positive simply from a role modelling of required behaviours point of view - again not something I’m sure Cam would ever bring.

Carlton fans are super defensive of Weitering but to me he kind of has some of the drawbacks to his game that Harris did in 2021/2022 - not taking enough intercept marks to move the needle. A great stopper, but I can't have you as elite if you average 2.2 intercept marks per game this year and 2.3 per game over your career.

Here are some of the players that average more intercept marks a game than Weitering this year:

• Alex Keath
• Zach Guthrie
• Jack Scrimshaw
• Froggy
• Josh battle
• Adam Tomlinson
• Nathan Broad

Harris is averaging 4.5, Sam Taylor 4.4, Mac Andrew 3.5 (sick player, sadly gold coast have a good one), Lever 3.1, Jack Buckley 3, McGovern and Payne 2.8, May and Moore 2.7, Stewart and Sicily 2.6.

Elite key defenders intercept and change the game from creating turnover - Weitering does not do that at the level of others. Maybe it is carlton's set up because Lewis Young and Mitch McGovern are also around 2 intercept marks per game, but regardless, can't have him as elite.

Point being, I want an elite key defender that the opposition has to send a player to rather than someone focused on beating their man.

 

[DERRINALPHIL]

I may be wrong, but I don't recall Cam Rayner ever playing a reserves match. I have no doubt he could go down and do what Matho and Lyons do.

Let's see what happens.

 

[Clarkythelion]

We don't know the extent of Shadeau's injury as yet. Give him another seniors run if fit by all means. If Rayner isn't dropped I'm going to barrack for Gold Coast.

Totally agree. It's like the part in the movie The Lion King where they say - "it's time". Rayner is not progressing just being held in the 1's, he has been tried forward, midfield and a little down back but isn't progressing, great potential but just no progression. Yep he has a good/bad off season trip and his relationship didn't survive but we have to do something to change his stagnation.

It is time - we have coverage, we have better options admittedly with less hit side but as it stands they will get the ball more.

 

[Voss the boss]

I'd say the bye has come at a very good time for Rayner, a week off, some fatherly love from Fagan, maybe a dinner and music appreciation lesson at Fagan's house, and then bang he is back where he left off, named on the HF Line, nothing to see here!

 

[mpal6]

IMO there are two issues.

1) how we are coaching him to approach stoppages.

2) how much freedom we give him to play on feel.

IMO, he needs to be the guy we try and play through. He doesn't need to be the clearance winning bull, but the guy who gets the pill off Dunks or Berry and charges past the other outside mid to clear the ball - exactly how Neale did this weekend.

Secondly, we give him so much freedom to play up the ground when he's "feeling it". Some guys - and I am convinced this includes Cam - need black and white clear instructions. Playing on feel is an easy way to stay uninvolved. Some guys want to be the man, some guys just don't have the confidence to be the man until you say "Cam, you get a month on the ball. Go out and be the man.". It shouldn't be his call. Has to be given the ball and a chance to run with it. At this point, who cares if we lose or not. The season is shifting away from seeding for finals and over to developing where our players are at in context to next and future seasons.

I believe he'll thrive under a coach like McRae, Longmire or even Hinkley. Hinkley would play him to his burst strength like what he's done with Horne-Francis. There'll be a phase of tough love to get him focused on the role he needs to play without taking it easy but once they get past that phase - he will have a lot more clarity on hitting the packs hard and getting the ball out in the clear.

Unfortunately I don't think it'll happen under Fagan or whoever is coaching our midfield at present. They've let the tail wagging the dog situation fester for too many years for it to change now. I doubt they're brave enough to even drop him to 2s.

 

[martinson]

Zero chance of Rayner being dropped. He's in the leadership group for reasons unknown

I just don't see Chris sucking that up after all the time and talk he's put into him. The vote in the prior game said it all.

 

[Elixuh]

Rayner has a shit role if you want him to be dominating games. He can only get involved if the game is played on certain terms. His role doesn’t suit bombed i50s over his head, the ball pinging around or our changing angles kick mark game.

He’s either a permanent forward (which I don’t necessarily think he is) or a stoppage mid with short burst spread and ability to fend. We play him in neither.

I bit about rayner on here with my great friend and colleague Danster, but in all seriousness I’m not sure what people expect.

 

[RoyBoy17]

Last week was a perfect opportunity to have Rayner as a stay home full forward. I know he mainly played forward but Ryan was the deepest forward a lot of the time. Frost would of preferred to play on Ryan over Rayner one out in the goal square.

I really hope we tinker with the forward structure in the second half of the season and try a few different options.

Hipwood will come back in this week and Morris is playing well so unless we drop a tall Rayner's role in the forward line needs to be that of a high half forward that gets up and back. He's not that type of player and seems to be getting lost in the forward line atm.

 

[martinson]

Rayner has a shit role if you want him to be dominating games. He can only get involved if the game is played on certain terms. His role doesn’t suit bombed i50s over his head, the ball pinging around or our changing angles kick mark game.

He’s either a permanent forward (which I don’t necessarily think he is) or a stoppage mid with short burst spread and ability to fend. We play him in neither.

I bit about rayner on here with my great friend and colleague Danster, but in all seriousness I’m not sure what people expect.

We've actually tried him all over the ground.

I agree he's been lost at times and not played where he could expect to have an impact . But I presume we select the team we hope to win the game ,not to suit Rayner.

My only observation is that when he does get his chances his skill level sometimes lets him down and many times now the effort./follow up/at least try to put yourself into it just isn't there. Like last week.

 

[md20]

Lets see what Answerth and/or Starcevich can do in the middle

 

[martinson]

Last week was a perfect opportunity to have Rayner as a stay home full forward. I know he mainly played forward but Ryan was the deepest forward a lot of the time. Frost would of preferred to play on Ryan over Rayner one out in the goal square.

I really hope we tinker with the forward structure in the second half of the season and try a few different options.

Hipwood will come back in this week and Morris is playing well so unless we drop a tall Rayner's role in the forward line needs to be that of a high half forward that gets up and back. He's not that type of player and seems to be getting lost in the forward line atm.

It's either that high half forward , a situation where mostly he's been not effective ,or bite the bullet and throw him into the midfield with limited periods in the forward line .

I can't see us dropping Morris. And for different reasons I can't see us dropping Rayner. And for whatever reason we don't want to give Rayner any permanent m/f role.

So we'll be back to square 1 I'd suggest.

 

[M Malice]

Would it be worth playing Rayner as the deepest forward? Hippy and Joe are both good up the ground and very good kicks into F50, highly unlikely though as with Logan Morris also there it would make for a 4 tall forward set up.

Also agree with md20 , re giving Answerth a crack in the middle, also think that Wilmot and Fletcher show some traits that would make for a capable contested mid.

 

[Denno]

Lets see what Answerth and/or Starcevich can do in the middle

Nope.

 

[Elixuh]

We've actually tried him all over the ground.

I agree he's been lost at times and not played where he could expect to have an impact . But I presume we select the team we hope to win the game ,not to suit Rayner.

My only observation is that when he does get his chances his skill level sometimes lets him down and many times now the effort./follow up/at least try to put yourself into it just isn't there. Like last week.

We can’t say we have tried him in the midfield when we give him some time one week and then nothing. Month or two later, back in for a bit then nothing again.

To know whether he can play midfield you’d need to give him legitimate time there over a sustained period. We have never done that.

 

[Nathan Barley]

We can’t say we have tried him in the midfield when we give him some time one week and then nothing. Month or two later, back in for a bit then nothing again.

To know whether he can play midfield you’d need to give him legitimate time there over a sustained period. We have never done that.

Or we know he doesn't have the endurance so don't bother trying to get a full game out of him

 

[Elixuh]

Or we know he doesn't have the endurance so don't bother trying to get a full game out of him

From all reports he has built the endurance to do large stints in the midfield. Never a 100% mid but bigger stints than a CBA here and there.

 

[SizeMatters]

On reflection I might have been harsh on Rayner. He’s seems like a good guy but for sure he needs to be dropped…

Needs a training block.