Shobe or Kaq??

[TheWhiteRhino]

With NBA season 2002/ 2003 on thh horizon and Phil Jackson and his men primed four-peat or double-double or whatever, who is bringing more value to the Lakers.

My question is, would it have been possible for the Lakers to have snatched the three crowns if they were either Shaqless or Kobeless (assuming they have their current roster and coach)??

If not, then who would they have most success WITHOUT??

Who is more value to the Lakers - Kobe or Shaq - both in terms of individual impact and working within existing team structures?

 

[Portmanteau]

Originally posted by TheWhiteRhino
Who is more value to the Lakers - Kobe or Shaq - both in terms of individual impact and working within existing team structures?

Shaq, but a country kilometre. Firstly, he has more individual impact... and secondly, HE is the team structure. Kobe is just a foil.

 

[jod23]

Shaq, no question. Kobe is just along for the ride. Substitute Kobe with any top flight SG like T-Mac, Ray Allen, Iverson and you would have gotten the same result. Kobe is overrated.

Although without Kobe or a decent SG like I said above the Lakers wouldnt have won any titles, but with Kobe and no Shaq they wouldnt even make the playoffs.

 

[Dingster]

Has to be Shaq, but to put another spin on jod's argument, there are plenty of teams that have two stars, but how many consistently win the big games? For all their bickering and the big egoes, Shaq and Kobe get it done where it counts....in the playoffs.

 

[Magpie Mark]

I would have to say that without a doubt the lynchpin to this whole team is Shaq. Put this man in any team that is coached by Phil Jackson and also has a good two guard, then they will win the championship for the Lakers.

 

[Portmanteau]

Originally posted by Magpie Mark
I would have to say that without a doubt the lynchpin to this whole team is Shaq. Put this man in any team that is coached by Phil Jackson and also has a good two guard, then they will win the championship for the Lakers.

I don't think he even necessarily needs a good 2 guard. All he needs is an all-star (or near enough to) 1, 2 or 3 and some roleplayers and the championship is the Lakers'.

 

[mattyc2422]

Shaq. How many other teams have a consistant huge guy like that in the lane for 40 odd minutes?

Very tough to defend a guy like that, and to win out on rebounds.

 

[TheWhiteRhino]

Originally posted by mattyc2422
Shaq. How many other teams have a consistant huge guy like that in the lane for 40 odd minutes?

Very tough to defend a guy like that, and to win out on rebounds.

Come on, we all know Eric Montross could take Shaq any day of the weekend apart from Saturday or the day after that.

 

[King Crow]

I dont know how Kobe is overrated?

When Shaq doesnt play... Kobe has games of 50 etc.

Apart from being a sensational defender, a senational offensive player, and having the ability to make others around him better.. he is overrated.

Dream on Jod

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by King Crow
I dont know how Kobe is overrated?

When Shaq doesnt play... Kobe has games of 50 etc.

Apart from being a sensational defender, a senational offensive player, and having the ability to make others around him better.. he is overrated.

Dream on Jod

He is a great player but they liken him to MJ and that in itself is an over reaction. Plus he is made to look very good with O'Neal in the lineup. Imagine Kobe on Denver or Cleveland....they wouldnt make the playoffs, might become competitive but they wouldnt be world beaters. However O'Neal on any team makes them instant contenders. Jordan was the same in his prime....he could've played for anyone and they would be instant championship contenders.

O'Neal also isnt even that great of a player he is just so big and just too hard to defend. He doesnt block enough shots or get enough rebounds for his size, he cant hit a jumpshot from anywhere outside of 10 feet, he cant hit free throws. But he is just soooo dominant.

 

[CURVE]

Shaq. Easy.

Kobe is very good, (not over rated as Jod thinks), but Shaq is the most dominant player in the league at present.

Kobe is asked to provide sound defense, provide a second scoring option and, at times, to play the point and control the offense. This he does extremely well. The only time he is asked to play above that is when Shaq is out, and he has proven on most occassion that he is more than capable of leading this team. I don't think it's Kobe ability that would stop the Lakers from making the playoff or winning Championships in Shaq absence, I think it more a lack of depth. Outside 6 or 7 players you are really scrapping the bottom of the barrell to find legitimate NBA players on the Lakers Roster.

One man can not lead his team to a Championship. Ask Jordan. Ask Chamberlain. Ask Robertson.

 

[Portmanteau]

Originally posted by DEVO
One man can not lead his team to a Championship. Ask Jordan. Ask Chamberlain. Ask Robertson.

I think Jod's point that adding any of these players to a team makes them automatic contenders in people's minds. Put Jordan at his peak in Golden State or Denver right now and you'd have people tipping them to make the play-offs.

 

[naughty monkey]

Originally posted by Guey_34


I think Jod's point that adding any of these players to a team makes them automatic contenders in people's minds. Put Jordan at his peak in Golden State or Denver right now and you'd have people tipping them to make the play-offs.

or Washington

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Guey_34


I think Jod's point that adding any of these players to a team makes them automatic contenders in people's minds. Put Jordan at his peak in Golden State or Denver right now and you'd have people tipping them to make the play-offs.

No doubt about it. Jordan at his peak on Golden State or Denver would make the playoffs. Same with Shaq. Jordan in GS with Jamieson, Dunleavy Jr and a couple of role players makes them instant playoff material. Same goes for Shaq.

However throw Kobe onto Denver or Golden State, you would still be hard pressed to pick them for playoff action.

 

[Iverson]

Shaq, no question.

Kobe is overrated. When Shaq isn't playing the Lakers lose more often. Kobe is made to look like a hog and lacks leadership qualities.

 

[mattyc2422]

Originally posted by Iverson
Kobe is overrated. When Shaq isn't playing the Lakers lose more often. Kobe is made to look like a hog and lacks leadership qualities. [/B]

He is improving his leadership immensely, but did anyone see that the Lakers lost to the Clippers in a preseason match...without Shaq?
only by 2 points, and Kobe probably sat for half the match

 

[Portmanteau]

The Clippers did not have Brand, Odom, Olowokandi, Quentin Richardson, Jaric, Wilcox and Dooling thank you very much.

So that's 80% of the starting line-up missing, plus a first-round pick and one of if not the best back-up point guard in the NBA.

Somehow I'd think that adds up to more than Shaq and Fox's combined output, wouldn't you think?

 

[King Crow]

Originally posted by jod23


However throw Kobe onto Denver or Golden State, you would still be hard pressed to pick them for playoff action.

Do you actually believe the $hit that comes out of your mouth, or are you so ****ed off that Kobe is compared to Jordan, that you wont admit that Kobe is an absolute superstar, and any team he goes to would be sucessful?

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by King Crow


Do you actually believe the $hit that comes out of your mouth, or are you so ****ed off that Kobe is compared to Jordan, that you wont admit that Kobe is an absolute superstar, and any team he goes to would be sucessful?

Kobe Bryant right now in Denver...would have a very hard time getting them to the playoffs. Simple as that.

 

[CURVE]

Originally posted by jod23


Kobe Bryant right now in Denver...would have a very hard time getting them to the playoffs. Simple as that.

I think you are underestimating Kobe's desire to succeed a bit. If he was on a team where he was the team's number one player, he would play the game differently. He would learn, and learn pretty quickly to adapt to the new surroundings and he would make the Denver side playoff contenders, at least. The West is pretty tough so I'm not going to say they would qualify, but Kobe would lead them successfully. In last year's Eastern Conference, Kobe would have qualified Washington for the playoffs easily and maybe as high as 4th or 5th. I doubt though they would have gone much further than the Semis.

The Lakers have shown that during the last couple of regular season's that they can cruise into the playoffs without fanfare and reserve they best for when it counts. If Shaq is missing for any period during the regular season, it doesn't matter too much as long as everyone is fit and healthy when the real stuff begins. The Lakers will pace themselves again during the regular season, and if Shaq or Kobe is missing for any period, neither of them will be busting a gut to make up for the others loss. Remember Lakers won 50% of their games when Shaq was absent, and 50% of the Games when Kobe was absent, and were 0-2 against Chicago when both were playing.

Kobe's only 24, has won 3 championships and is playing along side one the greatest players in history. When the time comes he will show the world what he is truly capable of, and with what he has experienced and learnt at the Lakers (and from guys like Shaq, Jackson, West, Magic and Co) he is going to be one hell of a player. I just hope he stays in Lakerland.

 

[King Crow]

Originally posted by jod23


Kobe Bryant right now in Denver...would have a very hard time getting them to the playoffs. Simple as that.

So your saying a team that had Kobe, Howard, Camby wouldnt get into the playoffs??? Not to mention some young class like Tsika and Hilario (Who will make an impact this year). Kobe is all class, he will make everyone around him look better.

Look at McGrady, he somehow turned Orlando into a playoff team... who was the second scorer... Mike Miller?

Denver with Kobe would make the playoffs easily.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by King Crow


So your saying a team that had Kobe, Howard, Camby wouldnt get into the playoffs??? Not to mention some young class like Tsika and Hilario (Who will make an impact this year). Kobe is all class, he will make everyone around him look better.

Look at McGrady, he somehow turned Orlando into a playoff team... who was the second scorer... Mike Miller?

Denver with Kobe would make the playoffs easily.

You overrate Howard. He is useless in my opinion. Camby is pretty good if he can ever get healthy and the rookies are rookies. They may make an impact but it rarely is sustained. Kobe would struggle to get Denver into playoff action. Especially considering the tough Western Conference.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by DEVO


I think you are underestimating Kobe's desire to succeed a bit. If he was on a team where he was the team's number one player, he would play the game differently. He would learn, and learn pretty quickly to adapt to the new surroundings and he would make the Denver side playoff contenders, at least. The West is pretty tough so I'm not going to say they would qualify, but Kobe would lead them successfully. In last year's Eastern Conference, Kobe would have qualified Washington for the playoffs easily and maybe as high as 4th or 5th. I doubt though they would have gone much further than the Semis.

Absolute crap. What Jordan did last year with that group of player was nothing short of phenomenal. The only reason they got that close to playoff action was because Jordan is the greatest player of all time, his presence is enough to lift a team. And he makes everyone around him play ALOT better. Dont get me wrong Kobe bring other players into the game but nothing like MJ. MJ is the consumate leader whereas early on in the year when they were 2 - 9 Kobe would get frustrated.

You over rate Kobe's talents just because he has hung on to Shaq's coattails and won 3 titles.

Originally posted by DEVO

Kobe's only 24, has won 3 championships and is playing along side one the greatest players in history. When the time comes he will show the world what he is truly capable of, and with what he has experienced and learnt at the Lakers (and from guys like Shaq, Jackson, West, Magic and Co) he is going to be one hell of a player. I just hope he stays in Lakerland.

I think Kobe will be somewhat disappointing when Shaq retires. We wont see what he is truly capable of, well we will in a way, but it wont be winning titles. That is of course if he doesnt get traded to say SanAntonio. Then the winning will continue. But if we ever see Kobe as the main man on a team, instead of being number 2, then we will see that he is no superstar but more of a Kevin Garnett....a great player but no champion.

Just my opinion.

Shaq on the other hand....a champion if there ever was one.

 

[coxon]

Originally posted by jod23


You overrate Howard. He is useless in my opinion. Camby is pretty good if he can ever get healthy and the rookies are rookies.

hmm.. on such a weak team... howard could easily return to 20-10 form ~.... a nice late round pick up IMO..

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by coxon


hmm.. on such a weak team... howard could easily return to 20-10 form ~.... a nice late round pick up IMO..

Yeah but you well know his 20 - 10 wont be as valuble as Duncan's 20 - 10 or Shaq's. They grab the big rebound when needed, score when the pressure is on. Howard picks up loose rebounds and scores in junk time. He is not a valuble player and Jordan did a great move to get him out of Washington.