So according to Bev - What is a ruckman?????

[BRWB]

This is not intended as an Ayce bash thread. I really want to know people's thoughts. What is a ruckman??

Clearly Bev does not rate tap outs. Neither did Grant Thomas...

I am just so confused on this.

Took my kids to the game and said watch No 49, and clap like mad when he gets a tap out. Every time he was contesting a centre hit out, I said let's watch, and then well we know the story. By the way one of Ayce's tap outs was when he sprinted from the bench to be third man up.

Yep Sandi is as bad it gets hitout wise but its not an isolated event.

Clearly Bev doesn't rate hitouts. But then Ross Lyon chortles in his sick heck way....oh we got 10 scoring opps from hitouts, they (we) got four. He then said, we adjusted to them putting Ayce forward. We were fine.

If anyone with the knowledge and access could give some stats and info on how the Acye well 'experiment' is going, I'd love to hear it.

Its got me a little farked to be frank.

 

[Next Waiting]

Someone who jumps in the ruck and does other stuff.

 

[GreatSouthWest]

Your kid's hands will be pristine, BRWB

 

[BRWB]

Someone who jumps in the ruck and does other stuff.

Cool thanks, shut the thread.

 

[Testekill]

A ruckman is an overrated role, it's great to have that tall timber but you can't have a slow & lumbering guy with our gameplan. And the funny thing is that Cordy had more tackles, more goal assists & clearances then Sandilands and the only massive discrepancy is in hitouts.

 

[BRWB]

Your kid's hands will be pristine, BRWB

Its funny, I kept trying to be polite and encouraging....saying ohh nearly. But the kids started saying, you always say that he never taps it out...but clearly this doesn't matter to Bev. I really want to see some analysis and discussion just on this topic, it can't be as simple as Sandi 50 HOs and Ayce 3. I know there are guys with firm views either way, really interested to see them in the one thread, cause I reckon this is going to be an ongoing debate for the rest of the season. Personally, I have NFI obviously as I just see as Bruce would say, Sandi caressing down Fyfe's throat who in turn does the same for Pav..

 

[Dav1d]

threenewpadlocks & Doggstats were discussing this quite a bit in our autopsy thread

couldn't be hard to find

I think that it is certainly interesting what he is doing

I believe Minson hasn't really done enough in the VFL, I wonder if we had won the game if this would have been something we would be even discussing

 

[BRWB]

A ruckman is an overrated role, it's great to have that tall timber but you can't have a slow & lumbering guy with our gameplan. And the funny thing is that Cordy had more tackles, more goal assists & clearances then Sandilands and the only massive discrepancy is in hitouts.

Yep but how many goals did Sandi set up with that 'discrepancy'? Is the trade off worth it??

 

[BRWB]

threenewpadlocks & Doggstats were discussing this quite a bit in our autopsy thread

couldn't be hard to find

I think that it is certainly interesting what he is doing

I believe Minson hasn't really done enough in the VFL, I wonder if we had won the game if this would have been something we would be even discussing

Yeah I saw that, just think one thread for it would be great to see how everyone's thoughts are placed and how these thoughts evolve (and Bev's?) as the season progresses.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

The main thing I'm happy with Bev is that he's happy to be pro-active in trying to be revolutionary in regards to AFL tactics and try something different, something that no coach has ever tried before. It might not work long-term, but at least it's something pro-active, unique, revolutionary if you will. Compare that to our previous coach (without making this yet another thread about it) who was influenced by outdated tactics (contested ball) which was the "buzz-stat) of Geelong's success in 2007-2009 but already outdated by the time was coach in 2012.

 

[BRWB]

The main thing I'm happy with Bev is that he's happy to be pro-active in trying to be revolutionary in regards to AFL tactics and try something different, something that no coach has ever tried before. It might not work long-term, but at least it's something pro-active, unique, revolutionary if you will. Compare that to our previous coach (without making this yet another thread about it) who was influenced by outdated tactics (contested ball) which was the "buzz-stat) of Geelong's success in 2007-2009 but already outdated by the time was coach in 2012.

Yep not really interested in the past (rather the OCDs on Macca stay away), rather try and keep it on track. I know you've summarised it before as a case 'for' Ayce, can you pull out some of your posts that are relevant and put them here??

 

[Next Waiting]

Cool thanks, shut the thread.

Well, Bev already conceded in the presser that they weren't going to win the hitouts against Sandilands. Neither would Minson have won them so the other stuff carries more weight. Mobility, marking around the ground, defensive positioning/coverage, tackles, 1%ers etc. He must consider Cordy a better option than Minson in this regard (and Campbell also at this point).
In the faceoff I nominated all of Wallis, Jong and Bont as being critical as to whether we won or not because we weren't going to win the hitouts so sharking them and limiting the damage would be important. I think all 3 were down a bit and a 10% better performance by those 3 and we win (not blaming them but that was the difference IMO) because Freo don't go 30 up after 15 mins.
But back to the ruck. Minson is very limited around the ground. Ayce is less limited. Around the ground is weighted higher than the actual tap outs if you have the clearance players to negate an opposition ruckman who wins the tap outs by making them not to advantage. Freo has the best tap ruckman in combination with the best clearance players. Everything has to go right. We were a small percentage off in 3 players in being able to beat them.
Ayce's contributions around the ground keep him in the side even though he consistently loses the tap outs. Until such time as we can get a ruckman who contributes around the ground and wins more taps Ayce keeps his job.
We already have one but he can't go there till we get another key defender.

 

[Allan Shorty]

Makes me feel old. Tactic seems to run ahead of common sense. What was the point of cordy today (bless him)? When did a team last win a flag on 3 hitouts ? And if hitouts mean nothing surely your designated centre bounce man has to do something else, perhaps marks or goals. It's befuddling.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Yep not really interested in the past (rather the OCDs on Macca stay away), rather try and keep it on track. I know you've summarised it before as a case 'for' Ayce, can you pull out some of your posts that are relevant and put them here??

Here's my main one.

I seriously, seriously, can't get my head around how people think that the way we utilised Cordy was bad and our tactics at ruck contests cost us the game ... consider these points

• We were 5 goals to 0 down when we attempted to use Cordy as a conventional ruckman
• We won the match after we didn't use a conventional ruckman around the ground... against the team who is on top of the ladder
• Freo are already the best hitout-to-advantage team and score-from clearance team in the league... they didn't play any better in that regard than they have been for the entire season... despite the fact that we didn't utilise a conventional ruckman scheme. However what it did mean was that we could be taller around the ground and have more mids at the stoppage
• When we pushed Cordy forward, it provided an extra marking target and made Johnson accountable, to the point that his second and third quarters (where the tactic was best implemented) was when Johnson didn't play as well relative to his first and last quarters
• Cordy as an extra target up forward meant that Dickson got off the leash
• Ross Lyon is already the best tactical coach in the game, and after they got out to a fast start, our bloody first-year coach out-coached, tactically, the best coach in the league when he decided to implement unconventional tactics
• People are complaining about Fyfe getting 10 clearances and getting some down his throat from Sandilands... newsflash, that's happened every game this year... there's a reason that Fyfe is favourite for the Bronwlow, considered the best player in the game, and Sandilands gets a crap tonne hitouts to advantage even against conventional ruckmen cause that's what being 211cm allows.

If I can find time I'll do a descriptive play-by-play report on every stoppage in the game (who contested the ruck dual, who got the clearance etc.) so we can have a quantitative way of analysing the impact on stoppages that the no-ruck tactic had.

 

[JJHunter]

Yep but how many goals did Sandi set up with that 'discrepancy'? Is the trade off worth it??

The trade off was playing another mid up at the ball and leaving them a loose backman / bevo said as much in presser

 

[Tommycash]

Beveridge is the first AFL coach to embrace the post ruck game plan. The man is an enigma.

 

[womble54]

I'm not sure even Bevo would get on here and say he is totally happy with what Cordy is giving. It's clear though, that Cordy is the best of our 3/4 options to give Bevo what he is looking for out of a ruckman.

High priority: mobility, agility, ability to contest and work rate up and down the ground.

Low priority: tapping to occassional advantage.

If that's the way he rates the ruck, and it certainly seems to be the case, you have to rate our ruck list options as:

1. Cordy
2. Roughy (needed elsewhere)
3/4. Minno/Campbell

No doubt in my mind we are already working hard on agents of "getable" rucks and ruck/forwards who are agile hard runners. Witts and Leuenberger would be high on our list. FWIW I see Cordy playing the majority of the rest of the year so we will damn sure know if he has developed at all by the end of it.

Interesting times

 

[threenewpadlocks]

No doubt in my mind we are already working hard on agents of "getable" rucks and ruck/forwards who are agile hard runners. Witts and Leuenberger would be high on our list. FWIW I see Cordy playing the majority of the rest of the year so we will damn sure know if he has developed at all by the end of it.

Matty Krezuer circa. 2008 ie. the Krezuer who before injuries could ruck, play forward, be mobile and all that and the reason why he was the number 1 pick would be perfect for that. It's a real shame that he's been shot down by injuries, I would have liked to see what his unquine game-style would have brought to the AFL just from an entertainment perspective.

 

[dogwatch]

Bev is doing a remarkable job with what he's got at his disposal. We have two lumbering ruckmen who can win a reasonable share of taps but struggle to do anything else and are not mobile. We have one who can hardly win any taps despite his height but is agile, has some game sense and is reasonably mobile. We also have another player who could perhaps win tapouts AND be mobile but he is critical to our defensive structure ATM. Bev clearly sees the defence as a higher priority.

So what he has done is devise a game plan premised on getting smashed in the hitouts. (We are 18th in the AFL in this stat BTW, a long way behind every other club except Geelong). So far I reckon he's going OK.

This doesn't necessarily mean Bev sees Cordy as the long term solution, but he perhaps has more upside than his two main rivals at the moment. And no, it's not a recipe for a premiership, but Bev has other development works on the go (like a solid defence that can play the zone but can also provide slingshot attacks) and if he can get those other more complex components properly established then slotting in a single good ruckman - who can win hitouts as well as offer something around the ground - is something that can be done next season.

And let's face it. We have no more options until the trade period and draft come around. As I said in a thread much earlier this season ("Five things we have learned") getting a good ruckman is almost certainly our single biggest list requirement:

At the moment we have no-one who can play that versatile, mobile ruckman to complement Will or TC. Cordy should be that man but he isn't up to it. With Will now 30 this is a major problem in our push for glory. It's just about our top priority for JMac and Dalrymple to sort out, because unless we land a ready made player like Ryder, it may take years to materialise.

Incidentally I wouldn't be surprised if there's more than just form/versatility going on with Minson. cleveland has certainly hinted at it.

 

[BRWB]

Bev is doing a remarkable job with what he's got at his disposal. We have two lumbering ruckmen who can win a reasonable share of taps but struggle to do anything else and are not mobile. We have one who can hardly win any taps despite his height but is agile, has some game sense and is reasonably mobile. We also have another player who could perhaps win tapouts AND be mobile but he is critical to our defensive structure ATM. Bev clearly sees the defence as a higher priority.

So what he has done is devise a game plan premised on getting smashed in the hitouts. (We are 18th in the AFL in this stat BTW, a long way behind every other club except Geelong). So far I reckon he's going OK.

This doesn't necessarily mean Bev sees Cordy as the long term solution, but he perhaps has more upside than his two main rivals at the moment. And no, it's not a recipe for a premiership, but Bev has other development works on the go (like a solid defence that can play the zone but can also provide slingshot attacks) and if he can get those other more complex components properly established then slotting in a single good ruckman - who can win hitouts as well as offer something around the ground - is something that can be done next season.

And let's face it. We have no more options until the trade period and draft come around. As I said in a thread much earlier this season ("Five things we have learned") getting a good ruckman is almost certainly our single biggest list requirement:


Incidentally I wouldn't be surprised if there's more than just form/versatility going on with Minson. cleveland has certainly hinted at it.

Good post. I guess my question is whether Bev is just working with what he has. Or is he genuinely philosophically opposed to ruckman (ie winning tapouts) and prioritises the other stuff??

 

[Testekill]

Honestly, Ryder would have been the ideal ruckman for what we're trying to do. Athletic, agile and can cover ground.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Good post. I guess my question is whether Bev is just working with what he has. Or is he genuinely philosophically opposed to ruckman (ie winning tapouts) and prioritises the other stuff??

Good question ... something that we can ponder, but something that we won't know the answer to until at least next year.

 

[bresker]

The reason why we play Ayce in the ruck because he's quick, mobile and big, puts on pressure and brings the ball in around the ground, links up play etc.

The fact that he isn't a great ruckman isn't Bev's fault.

Of it's not ideal BUT IT'S THE BEST WE'VE GOT

What do you expect Bev to do, magic the next Dean Cox out of his arse?

Minson can ruck pretty well is but we don't play for stoppages any more. We play quick. Big Will doesn't do quick. Neither does Tom Campbell. We don't need another leviathan hanging around in the goalsquare squinting at the floodlights.

We have to play the best available cattle. Most AFL lists have 3, maybe 4 spots for ruckmen. Two of ours are lumbering old school ruckmen. We aren't old school any more. So it's Ayce.

 

[Taylor]

Doesn't he just need to gain some size and he will go just fine?

I think Beverage is being realistic about the long term plan at the club and giving him as much experience while he can will make for a better finished product that has developed alongside the young mids he will play with as 25 year olds.

 

[threenewpadlocks]

Doesn't he just need to gain some size and he will go just fine?

I think Beverage is being realistic about the long term plan at the club and giving him as much experience while he can will make for a better finished product that has developed alongside the young mids he will play with as 25 year olds.

It's more the fact that we're seeing a gradual philosphical change into the role of a ruckman. Our coach is putting emphasis on a ruck's mobility rather than tapwork at a greater rate than pretty much any other coach in recent history.