Something needs to change

[HeaveHo_WeBlow]

I think it's fairly obvious there's a few issues arising in this team. But if there is anything that needs to be addressed it has to be the poor shots on goal and our clearance work. For example in today's game Duggan and Redden (Who I'm ultimately laying the blame on for today's loss with his dribble kick 12 point play momentum killer). Overall, I can recall numerous occasions Duggan has sprayed a setshot from an easy angle inside 50. Or even today Redden had an easy shot 15 meters out on a 45 degree angle and goes the dribble, that's before we even go over his set shots which are just as bad as the earlier. We need these players kicking goals if we even want to think of a flag, we can't rely purely on our forwards to kick a premiership score.

Next thing that needs to be addressed is clearance work. I get a lot of people on this team forum don't rate our midfielders, but why the change in output this year from last? I'd have to say this game was the most frustrating. Apart from the first quarter, we were dominated in clearances although winning the tapwork. Is this a setup and coaching issue, or lack of heart?

Because from where I stand, there seems to be no heart in this squad and more focus on the next payment into their bank accounts for swank items and personal products.

Now I heard somewhere (Might of been on this forum, or a video on the WCE site not too sure where) That the team spends 10 minutes after training on set shots. Currently this to me is unacceptable. I can only speak personally when I say, I couldn't have got to where I am today occupationally if I didn't spend the extra time after work bettering myself. Now you might say staying back an hour after training, or putting in the extra workin your own time is over the top. But from what I saw from Redden and Duggan today as well as some of the kicks executed down field, it might not be that farfetched at all.




As a side note, do you think there could be any correlation on work rate and injury? Whilst having minimal injury this year is fantastic, could there be more to that story than just good luck on our side for once?

 

[inbetween]

Most of these issues are overstated. We arent terribly inaccurate at goals. About league average in my opinion (would have to look it up though). Sure we are no GWS or Melbourne (i think they are most accurate) but most other teams kick as well (or poorly) as our team.

But yes, we do need to improve clearance work given our ruck advantage but when you consider the opposition today and their strong group of mids, i suppose it can be excused.

 

[wraglesweb]

Midfield midfielder midfielders midfield midfielder midfielders midfield midfielder midfielders midfield midfielder midfielders


Sorry very frustrated

 

[ziad]

Masten will never help us win a big pressure game - trade him or replace him with a kid I don't care.
I don't think Cripps is up to it when it counts.
Schofield is limited but forced to take tall forwards. If there isn't a better role bring in Barass and take the hit this season. Trade Schofield.
The others are ok but plenty of room to replace a few over time.

Don't throw away trades on fringe players who 'show a bit' in low teams. I don't care if they miss their mum.
Only trade for real upgrades

get a tackling coach - I assume we don't have one.

 

[WCErevival]

Most of these issues are overstated. We arent terribly inaccurate at goals. About league average in my opinion (would have to look it up though). Sure we are no GWS or Melbourne (i think they are most accurate) but most other teams kick as well (or poorly) as our team.

But yes, we do need to improve clearance work given our ruck advantage but when you consider the opposition today and their strong group of mids, i suppose it can be excused.

We were in the top half for accuracy last time I checked.

 

[eagles rule]

I think we won the centre clearances but were smashed at the stoppage clearances .

 

[WCE_phil]

Our structures all over the ground are shit. From the way we place ourselves around marking contests with the smalls, to clearance situations it's all very, very poor. We have a significantly more talented list than this shit we are streaming forth atm.

 

[inbetween]

We were in the top half for accuracy last time I checked.

Yeah 57.7% for GWS and Melbourne going on at ~60%.
We as a team shoot roughly 55.7%.
None of this takes into account OOTF but that wouldnt affect the numbers too much.

Yes the true mark of an elite team is elite goal kicking, but its not exactly panic stations for us. The only concern about goalkicking i have is actually Mark Lecras who just gets worse and worse at it each season. A few select poor goalkicking mids is hardly an epidemic.

 

[Play by Numbers]

There are gameplan issues, coaching issues and form issues.

The gameplan issues, are our choice to ignore the corridor as a method to slow the bleeding. If as today, you have players contesting the mark, but no one sitting off the pack, it often leads to a lost contests. The other major gameplan issue, is the choice to high press, as opposed to rebound the ball. Last season when forced, we played the slingshot well, flooding back to defence and intercepting. This would help, as our press leaks badly and the backline is not intercepting supply.

Sadly, this goes to form issues. Our good form last season, with backline players communicating well has collapsed. A sore McGovern, a McKenzie who seems slower and unable to read the ball and intercept and Schofield not playing well, means the backline is regularly exposed. They set up correctly, but often fail to intercept or get to contests. The structure is guarding space and inviting players to choose a target, but not shutting down that target well.
Next for form, are players like Redden, LeCras, Masten. Lower production and poor disposal. They hurt not getting the ball, they hurt turning it over.

Finally coaching. Whilst we have out of form mids, they aren't being dropped. It is the same every week. Likewise, not identifying issues and working on them. You can't just wait till the team clicks, ignoring opposition and trying to play one way. The chipping down the boundary is not working. McKenzie is not able to fit with our gameplan. Low production players are allowed to suck. We aren't changing the way the team tackles in preseason. Nor absorb or execute under pressure. Lastly, WC used to travel better. They have gone back to leaving early, is this causing problems?

Our stoppage work is not as good under Cox as Pyke. It could be form, but it seems WC have slipped from nearly the best clearance side to average. Given our whole gameplan revolves around quick kicks from stoppages then locking the ball in, this is a problem.

 

[Galileo9]

For dogs, if it's not hunter, it's macrae or Wallis or liberators or bomtempelli or Dahlhaus or Boyd. For us its Priddis or gaff or shuey.

We get overrun. Too many so called midfielders not doing enough.

And we have no runners across half back. So we look slow.

 

[placebo]

Well unless we have a couple of A-Grade midfielders lying around, nothing will change. It's now a very realistic and probable reality that we'll miss our window.

 

[Youdy]

The clearance issue you raise is interesting
What has worried me, is in all of the losses (apart from hawthorn), we have either broken even or won the contested ball/clearances in the first quarter and then been clearly beaten the rest of the game.
For example we were clearly beating the swans/dogs in this respect. (Probably the no 1/2 teams in the comp for contested football in the midfield)

Is this just other teams re-organising to counter our strategy or are our players unable to maintain the effort for four quarters?

I don't like the idea of scape goats, but Redden in particular seems to fade out of the game.

 

[Galileo9]

Well unless we have a couple of A-Grade midfielders lying around, nothing will change. It's now a very realistic and probable reality that we'll miss our window.

A grade would help but we already have some. Unusual to have many as u r calling for

 

[Galileo9]

[QUOTE="Play by Numbers, post: 44888959, member:
Next for form, are players like Redden, LeCras, Masten. Lower production and poor disposal. They hurt not getting the ball, they hurt turning it over.
.[/QUOTE]

This. But Naitanui away is also struggling. Too many passengers

But we lost by 8. Didn't get blown out of water so plenty of positives

 

[Byron_Clanger]

We still don't have a premier midfielder. And don't give me Priddis. I'm talking about a player that when shit hits the fan can say 'F#ck this, come with me, boys' and put the load on his shoulders and will us to a win.

 

[Play by Numbers]

For dogs, if it's not hunter, it's macrae or Wallis or liberators or bomtempelli or Dahlhaus or Boyd. For us its Priddis or gaff or shuey.

We get overrun. Too many so called midfielders not doing enough.

And we have no runners across half back. So we look slow.

Well unless we have a couple of A-Grade midfielders lying around, nothing will change. It's now a very realistic and probable reality that we'll miss our window.

I don't think it is an issue of rebound or quality.

The dogs play so well, rebounding from defence, because that is their gameplan.

WC leave our defence open. They defend not by tackling, or flooding numbers back, but by coralling within our f50, to force an outlet kick towards intercept players pressing up.

If the ball gets over the back, it's either a score, or the defenders zone off, leave a hole then collapse on the player.

This just isn't working.

The way the Dogs defend, is they tackle aggressively in f50 as their players zone back to the midfield and clog not the first outlet kick but second/third to halt transition, they then flood defence and use numbers not intercept marking to win the ball. It's why they concede such low scores. Huge numbers in defence and hard running mids. They then rebound in a wave, using massive numbers. Given most teams are loathe to have big outnumbers in their 50, they leave one on ones in defence. The wave of WB then transition rapidly using the corridor to catch defence unaware. Classic slingshot.

Having quick players helps. But the few times we played like this last year it worked well. Likewise, it leads to open forwardlines. Given our strength is great forwards and our press and intercept zone aren't functioning, maybe a change is required.

It would require quick down the centre kicking which WC can do well. Instead of the boundary hugging. It will also require the team stop the slow transitioning. Hawthorn may do this, but we aren't Hawthorn, teams like Adelaide transition from side to side quickly, not trying to chip a way through, but to expose the centre or a wing.

The one thing though that it will require is our mids to actually defend. Given they don't tackle well or mark well this could be an issue. The Masten, LeCras, Redden style of running back hard, but to receive in defence after a turnover is won, won't be acceptable, they need to flood back before this and be accountable, or tackle harder in f50.

It is a style of play that suits good tackling sides such as WBD, who are nippy, but also Sydney who can tackle well without much pace.

So, it isn't HB runners or A graders it is work ethic and game plan.

 

[Obeanie1]

We played sh!t, we lacked poise, we lacked smart footballers or we lack smart coaches.

Why we lost today was because we kicked long and high to a pack contest far too often. Look how Kennedy performed today...crap.

I sitting there and you can see the Dogs flooding back out manning our tall forwards and we bombed it it. What happened? Spoil, outnumbered and they ran it out with run, carry and over lapping handballs. We looked stupid.

The panic kicks out of defense were past cringe worthy. Its damn luck my TV doesn't have a bear bottle sticking out of it right now.

Duggan, love ya mate but seriously go work on your goal kicking, its the glaring weakness in your game.

Why we didn't take Barras over as well as Cole I don't know. Maybe we wanted more run but today we had our running half backs trying to hold off talls instead of positioning themselves to run and counter attack.

We were lucky the Dogs couldn't kick straight.

Gaff looked shaken still, he's lost a bit of confidence.

Masten was terrible, why we re-signed him I have no idea, perfect trade bait but not now.

 

[ep2018]

We still don't have a premier midfielder. And don't give me Priddis. I'm talking about a player that when shit hits the fan can say 'F#ck this, come with me, boys' and put the load on his shoulders and will us to a win.

We were so spoiled, Judd Cousins and Kerr! We had 3! Now we have none.

 

[Play by Numbers]

[QUOTE="Play by Numbers, post: 44888959, member:
Next for form, are players like Redden, LeCras, Masten. Lower production and poor disposal. They hurt not getting the ball, they hurt turning it over.
.

This. But Naitanui away is also struggling. Too many passengers

But we lost by 8. Didn't get blown out of water so plenty of positives[/QUOTE]
I actually think this is because the team has some big strengths, that are not being utilised.

We are playing a 2015 gameplan, when form and innability to execute are causing it to fall down.

Facts are, if WC stoppage work has fallen away, then the system of high volume clearances to quick kick and goal in the forwardline or high pressing, to force a turnover, when they are having issues locking it in and a zone intercept style defence is falling apart, really isn't the way to go.

How WC scored in 2015, was from being the best at getting shots on goal from stoppages and from turnovers in forward half. We still score well from stoppages, but win way less. However, forcing forward half turnovers or conceding less scores when the balls gets over the top of a press is the issue. The bounday line hugging is to limit scores from turnover in transition, because the coaches have conceded that they score enough in the other ways, to worry about rebound football. Supposedly, WC don't want to be a slingshot team.

This needs to change.

The quick kick from stoppage stuff makes the team lazy, the precise kicking falls away. The boundary hugging malarky, means they don't learn how to execute well at pace or with pressure.

However, WC does have the weapons to play that way.

 

[swingdog]

Well unless we have a couple of A-Grade midfielders lying around, nothing will change. It's now a very realistic and probable reality that we'll miss our window.

I'm increasingly wondering this, but I think we have at least one good chance, next year. This year is just not coming together whether it's form or players reaching the end of the road or structures. We need to use the remainder of the year to work out how we are going to do this right next year.

That probably means introducing youngsters earlier than we might have liked, trying players who are struggling in new positions and persisting with some we hope will come good (e.g. Mackenzie). We'll be making up the numbers in finals this year. I'd rather re-set for next year.

 

[Play by Numbers]

We played sh!t, we lacked poise, we lacked smart footballers or we lack smart coaches.

Why we lost today was because we kicked long and high to a pack contest far too often. Look how Kennedy performed today...crap.

I sitting there and you can see the Dogs flooding back out manning our tall forwards and we bombed it it. What happened? Spoil, outnumbered and they ran it out with run, carry and over lapping handballs. We looked stupid.

The panic kicks out of defense were past cringe worthy. Its damn luck my TV doesn't have a bear bottle sticking out of it right now.

Duggan, love ya mate but seriously go work on your goal kicking, its the glaring weakness in your game.

Why we didn't take Barras over as well as Cole I don't know. Maybe we wanted more run but today we had our running half backs trying to hold off talls instead of positioning themselves to run and counter attack.

We were lucky the Dogs couldn't kick straight.

Gaff looked shaken still, he's lost a bit of confidence.

Masten was terrible, why we re-signed him I have no idea, perfect trade bait but not now.

It is the clash of two gameplans. The Dogs flood and WC use quick kicks from stoppages to get the ball forward then lock it down. Our method is not functioning well this season.

Simmo seems more tactically astute than Woosh but even more hard headed.

He rotates players, but seems to have iron beliefs, like no close checking and no changes to the gameplan.

What is weird, is that last year, when forced we did alter the gameplan to great effect. But only super important games. They have too much faith it will work. Last year we flooded the midfield v hawthorn in a final and opted to tackle, not corral, also close checked players to stop any quick handoff. It was successful.

Also against the Bulldogs, instead of high pressing, we zoned back and did what the WB do and blocked the midfield outlets on the flanks or centre, so stopped that second or third kick. They weren't in good form but it worked. It is what Geelong are doing and doing well.

 

[Avalor]

To think we are now only one game ahead of Carlton.

 

[MWPP]

We were so spoiled, Judd Cousins and Kerr! We had 3! Now we have none.

Swings and roundabouts
We didn't have a classy forward back then

 

[Natho]

I want to punch ****ing redden in the face.. a dribble are you absolutely kidding me. FFS! Im absolutely livid still. You're dead to me right now redden

 

[Tom_Thumb]

I'll tell you exactly what's wrong, players like Masten are Auto-Picks. Time to drop more than just a "Jetta" and a message needs to be sent to these pack of "pea Hearts" that its not acceptable to just rock up and collect your pay.