Stone Cold Bluff v Monster Hand

[monarch4]

This is a hand that I observed while playing at Burswood Casino on Tuesday night. I was playing a cash game while the final table of a tournament was being played out.

To set the scenario.

46 player tournament...9 players left....paying top 8

Player 1 (2nd in chip lead) he has Ace 7 off suit I think from memory. He lost a substantial pot on a stone cold bluff earlier on.

Player 2 (Chip leader) has Ace clubs, Queen clubs.

There were some small raises pre-flop.

Flop comes King clubs, Jack clubs, 10 clubs

Player 1 goes all in and I'm thinking to myself about how hard it would be to not trash talk if I was in player 2's shoes. Call was made, player 2 flopped a royal flush, player 1 bounces out on the bubble on a stone cold bluff.

I have seen royal flushes before but this is the first (and probably the last) flopped royal flush that I will ever see again.

I went out on the bubble in a Burswood tournament a few weeks ago. I don't feel so bad after seeing that hand last night.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Very nice or not depending on which side you are on I guess.
Have you heard about the BigFooty poker challenge?????

 

[red+black]

Yeah not a bad flop! Here's a bluff probe bet on the flop from the 10k Pot Limit Omaha High event at the WSOP:

On a board of [Ad Ah Kh] [9h], Howard Lederer bets $600 and Roy Vanderslius calls. The river is the Qh and Vandersluis bets out. Lederer folds and Vandersluis reveals Ac As Jh 10h for flopped quad Aces and a backdoor Royal Flush of hearts. Lederer himself suggested that it was possible he had picked the wrong time to bluff.

PS: If we could get WingDings on this site, we should be able to type the suits (Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs). Borgsta, can you look into that mate?

 

[Borgsta]

PS: If we could get WingDings on this site, we should be able to type the suits (Spades, Hearts, Diamonds, Clubs). Borgsta, can you look into that mate?

I'll ask, but this is my guess at a response.

"Too many idiots will use it in a stupid way."

 

[Crosby87]

I'm not even considering playing A-7 if I'm on the bubble in a tournament.

What a donk.

 

[DaSawx]

Especially going all-in, with three clubs on the board

 

[jod23]

Yeah that dude was stupid. On the bubble, second in chips? I would sit their and watch until someone busts and im in the money. Then I would get back to playing. I think I would only play rockets in that situation.

 

[Crosby87]

And even then, I would consider folding Aces unless it was against a shortstack.

 

[Binxy]

Agreed, I folded Ah Kh last night on the bubble.

I love how tight it gets just before the bubble and then that big sigh of relief as it bursts and the play loosens up.

 

[red+black]

I think some of you guys are way too tight. I've recommended tight play near a satellite bubble, but not in a real tournament. I'll have to side with dougthelegend on playing to win.

I'm playing Aces every time on the bubble against the chip leader.

 

[Crosby87]

I disagree. If I'm second in chips, out of the money, the chip leader moves all-in, I don't care what my hand is, I fold. I know I can dominate him shorthanded, so I'm still confident about winning, no matter how many chips I have.

I at least would like to make sure I cash. I don't know about you, but I don't like playing for two hours, getting that close, without result.

It's not really playing conservative - it's playing smart. Why call off all your chips when you can smash him with aggressive play later?

 

[Falchoon]

I know I can dominate him shorthanded, so I'm still confident about winning, no matter how many chips I have.

Why call off all your chips when you can smash him with aggressive play later?

Mike the mouth, is that you? Hellmouth?

 

[Crosby87]

I don't understand the need for that. If you don't want to talk strategy, tha's fine, but there's no need to flame.

 

[Falchoon]

Phil Gordon



"With an average stack toward the end of the day, we approach the “bubble” and I change gears. With 9 internet qualifiers on my table, I am certain that no one wants to go broke. I go from playing 1 or 2 hands an orbit to playing 7. I raise and re-raise with near reckless abandon and somehow manage to stay out of the way of the big pairs. These guys are playing way, way too tight trying to sneak into the money. I’ll let them into the money, for sure, but they’re not going to have many chips when they get there.

When the carnage ends and the bubble bursts, I have nearly every single ante-chip on the table. I’m up to an impressive $210,000 in chips, about one and a half times the average stack of $127,000."

"When we get short-handed at 12 and 11 players remaining, I loosen up my starting hand requirements appropriately and pound on the average stacks, while staying away from the big stacks and small stacks. This works well, and I’m able to pick up some pots I don’t deserve. I pick up A-K a few times, raise before the flop, get smooth-called on the button, miss the flop completely and check/fold. I’m not going to chase those flops at this point."

 

[Crosby87]

I didn't think I said I wouldn't continue to play aggressive on flops. I said I wouldn't risk all my chips without a hand. I also said I would make the call against any other play other than the person covering me.

That's all well and good for Phil Gordon, he's a bajillionaire. Of course people are going to want to play slower for a cash... y'know, those who need the money.

 

[Falchoon]

I don't understand the need for that. If you don't want to talk strategy, tha's fine, but there's no need to flame.

might come across as smartarsey but simply put, how do you know you can dominate the current chip leader shorthanded?

 

[red+black]

I guess if we all played the same way with the same cards, poker wouldn't be poker.

 

[Crosby87]

might come across as smartarsey but simply put, how do you know you can dominate the current chip leader shorthanded?

Because that's my style. I like to play aggressively shorthanded. I play shorthanded poker more than full ring games. And I like to think I play it well. And in the scenario, I'm second in chips. It's not like I'm shortstacked.

What's so difficult to understand about that? I am allowed to have confidence in my ability, aren't I? I think your reply was out of line. I don't consider myself a "professional", I never once said that. But I do have confidence that once a tournament gets down to the final stages, and I have chips, that I am in a good position to win.

 

[Falchoon]

I didn't think I said I wouldn't continue to play aggressive on flops. I said I wouldn't risk all my chips without a hand.

you also said you'd consider laying down AA. 2 schools of thought, one is to avoid going down to the chip leader and therefore going out and one is doubling through the chip leader to be touney leader by more than double the next stack.

Me personally, I wouldnt be pushing A7 off either, but as a relative newcomer to the game I've always struggled on the bubble, playing too tight. As I've become a little more experienced, read a little more, experienced more, not only am I less likely to bubble out, I'm also more likely to finish closer to the top. Of course I'm playing $33 games at best, put me in a $1000 buy in and I'll be as clammy as most.

That's all well and good for Phil Gordon, he's a bajillionaire. Of course people are going to want to play slower for a cash... y'know, those who need the money.

I still say poker is about the reads, you can even see it at a freeroll APL event, those who are clinging for a top 16 position. Hey if you've got a good hand, here's some free chips 'cause I'm raising.

Bubble time is money time.

 

[Falchoon]

Because that's my style. I like to play aggressively shorthanded. I play shorthanded poker more than full ring games. And I like to think I play it well. And in the scenario, I'm second in chips. It's not like I'm shortstacked.

What's so difficult to understand about that? I am allowed to have confidence in my ability, aren't I? I think your reply was out of line. I don't consider myself a "professional", I never once said that. But I do have confidence that once a tournament gets down to the final stages, and I have chips, that I am in a good position to win.

Those 2 players both have an outspoken confidence in their own ability and at least in Mikes case are aggressive players and would say exactly what you have said above. I don't see in that respect how my reply can be seen as out of line, some would even take it as a compliment.

 

[red+black]

Bubble time is money time.

I agree, and the chip leader will usually steal many pots cos everyone wants to cash, therefore extending his chip lead. I'll take a 1st, 2nd or 3rd and a bubble, over two 5th/6th finishes any day. If you've got a hand play it. Why would a read on a chip leader be any better on the bubble or in the money? If you think you have the read, skill and confidence, fight it out with him on the bubble, see who's got the bigger balls.

 

[Crosby87]

you also said you'd consider laying down AA

In an all-in situation, risking all of my chips out of the money, on the bubble, second in chips. I'll lay any hand down here.

Me personally, I wouldnt be pushing A7 off either, but as a relative newcomer to the game I've always struggled on the bubble, playing too tight. As I've become a little more experienced, read a little more, experienced more, not only am I less likely to bubble out, I'm also more likely to finish closer to the top. Of course I'm playing $33 games at best, put me in a $1000 buy in and I'll be as clammy as most.

I think you've mistaken everything I said. I never said I wasn't going to continue to play aggressively on the bubble as second in chips. I said I wouldn't risk all of my chips if the chip leader moved all-in.

Secondly, moving with A-7 is never a good play, unless you're very short-stacked.

some would even take it as a compliment.

I think we both know what you wrote wasn't written as a compliment. I think sarcasm is a better word to use.

I agree, and the chip leader will usually steal many pots cos everyone wants to cash, therefore extending his chip lead. I'll take a 1st, 2nd or 3rd and a bubble, over two 5th/6th finishes any day. If you've got a hand play it. Why would a read on a chip leader be any better on the bubble or in the money? If you think you have the read, skill and confidence, fight it out with him on the bubble, see who's got the bigger balls.

Totally agree, but you've all seemed to miss my point. Not once did I say I would slow down if I had chips on the bubble, I said I wouldn't risk all my chips in an all-in situation. There's a big difference. If someone pushes and I have them covered, of course I would call. But in this instance I wouldn't. But to say that makes me a tight player is incorrect.

Conversely, if I am now in the money, I make the call. It's simply for the fact that I do not want to play a poker tournament for two hours and bubble. I want to at least make some money. That doesn't mean I tighten up, it means I don't risk ALL my chips unless I'm 100% I have the best of it. It's all fine and dandy for people to say Phil Gordon wouldn't do this - well, Phil Gordon doesn't need to play poker for money. And I don't give a damn how you value Aces, any hand can be outdrawn at any time. I just don't see how this is so hard to understand.

Perhaps it's because nobody has written it in a poker book? Lol.

I think you'll find this exact argument on a lot of poker boards. This is merely my opinion.

 

[Theseventhhamster]

Good points all now lets settle this on monday night!!!!

 

[Crosby87]

Yeah, if I win a freeroll I'm in... Lol

So far I'm 0/2, but I did go deep in a Pot Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - some guy flopped Queens full of Tens, and I called him down with Queens full of Fours. I didn't go broke, but I was crippled. I think I played it well.

And then I moved in on this guy with trip Queens, and he had a spade draw and hit. Oh well. I'm liking the fact that Pokerroom has a lot of different freerolls every day.

 

[Borgsta]

In a money tournament, mine would depend a lot on how many players there are. If it was a small tourny with <50 and chip stacks were all close, I'd call on the bubble. If chips stack were spread out and the bottom 2 had really low M's I'd probably fold the A's. No point risking it when someone will definately go out soon.

Alternatively if it was a big tourny with >300 people, I'd be playing the A's in all situations. Too long to wait around and waiting for the bubble to finish isnt worth it, esp. in 2nd place.