TAFE versus University

[nokiacasio]

This topic is part of money and investing because education is an investment. Risk, diversification, costs, rate of return, etc apply to education just as they do to property and shares.

My son will finish his VCE this year and I am hoping he will get a really good ENTER. I am hoping he gets over 90. I have invested in a lot of private tutors and he seems to be studying so much that Asian kids are starting to accuse him of having no life.

Some people I have spoken to have said that university is a waste of time and that TAFE is better because TAFE gives you real skills that are suited to a vocation while university tends to be more general and theory-based.

However, my friend Frank says that only crap students go to TAFE. The elite all send their kids to universities, and not just any backyard university but the top Australian universities.

What I would like to know is how much status matters in higher education. For example, suppose you studied computer science or maths at Harvard University like Bill Gates did and compare that to, say, a computer course at Excomm or some TAFE. Even if the two places teach roughly the same thing it is probably naive to think that the two courses have the same effect on success in the labor market just because the course content is similar.

Another issue I'd like to explore is general subjects versus more specific subjects. I have a friend who claims that university is a complete waste of time. He came out of high school and became a plumber and now he earns money and has a house and car while all his uni friends of similar age are still slogging it out with exams and such. He claims that it is better to get money faster by focusing on more specific vocational courses at technical schools rather than waste time with the general disciplines at university. A browse through the TAFE catalog reveals very specific courses such as Picture Framing IIV or How to Write a Business Letter whereas uni subjects tend be, say, Linear Algebra, Fundamentals of Biochemistry, etc.

So basically a commerce degree at Melbourne Uni would need an ENTER of about 95 to get in, which means you'd have to be in the top 5 per cent. But why not just do a business course at some TAFE that doesn't even require an ENTER? Would they be the same?

 

[kolchak]

Keep this to SRP

 

[bunsen burner]

Some people I have spoken to have said that university is a waste of time and that TAFE is better because TAFE gives you real skills that are suited to a vocation while university tends to be more general and theory-based.

The only thing TAFE is better than uni for is it's wider range of courses.

But if you compare a TAFE course to a uni course of the same subject then there is no camparison. TAFE is Mickey Mouse.

However, my friend Frank says that only crap students go to TAFE.

Sort of true. See above.

The elite all send their kids to universities,

Parents don't send kids to uni rather they get them to apply.

What I would like to know is how much status matters in higher education.

A fair bit when you're going for your first job. After that it makes no difference.

For example, suppose you studied computer science or maths at Harvard University like Bill Gates did and compare that to, say, a computer course at Excomm or some TAFE. Even if the two places teach roughly the same thing

A TAFE and uni course in IT are never going to be the same thing. The IT TAFE courses in this country are not even close to the uni courses. A person who did a 3 year TAFE course most likely would not pass any 1st year uni exams. That's how big the gap is. Don't let anyone tell you any different.

it is probably naive to think that the two courses have the same effect on success in the labor market just because the course content is similar.

You should compare ANU with Edith Cowan. Most likely very similar in academic standard, but an ANU gradudate with the same grade will be looked on much more favourably by graduate employers.

I have a friend who claims that university is a complete waste of time.

Stupid stupid comment from unsurpringly - a tradesman. What is it about tradesmen and them over rating themselves? Just because you can change a fawcet whilst 95% of the population can't, doesn't make them smart. They've just been shown is all. Can't say that about many uni degrees - got to actually be able to understand complex concepts.

He came out of high school and became a plumber and now he earns money and has a house and car while all his uni friends of similar age are still slogging it out with exams and such. He claims that it is better to get money faster by focusing on more specific vocational courses at technical schools rather than waste time with the general disciplines at university.

Law, engineering, IT, nursing, teaching - not general.

If manual work is more up his alley then good for him, but this guy is being a knob if he actually thinks he is superior. I know plenty of tradies who make real good money and I definitaley advocate a trade if you're more suited to it and think financially you can often be as successful, but his "TAFE is better than uni" is complete nonsense.

A browse through the TAFE catalog reveals very specific courses such as Picture Framing IIV or How to Write a Business Letter whereas uni subjects tend be, say, Linear Algebra, Fundamentals of Biochemistry, etc.

That pretty much sums it up.

So basically a commerce degree at Melbourne Uni would need an ENTER of about 95 to get in, which means you'd have to be in the top 5 per cent. But why not just do a business course at some TAFE that doesn't even require an ENTER? Would they be the same?

You should have your answer by now.

 

[JKCeagle]

The following is my inexpert opinion:

If he's unsure about what to do with his future, encourage your son to go to university. TAFE seems to me to be pretty narrow in the scope of what you can do, ie. it focuses on a specific discipline, whereas at uni you can study a much broader scope of topics.

Unless of course he wants to do something like engineering, medicine, dentistry, law etc, in which case what he studies at uni will be geared towards his profession, but there is no way he'll find that sort of education at TAFE anyway. Not meaning to offend anyone at all, but the preconception is that universities are white-collar and TAFE is blue-collar...

And your friend Frank is right - if you're thinking about uni, go for one of the "elite" universities, namely one of the Group of Eight (Australia's version of the Ivy League), because the fact is that a degree from one of those places opens more career doors than the same degree from a lesser university. (I admit I'm biased because I go to UWA )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_of_Eight_(Australian_universities)

 

[thebigboy]

TAFE has its benifits for some courses like Hospitality, Mechanic and other trade types or the courses which give you a direct path into Uni.

Apart from that, TAFE is pathetic, well at least the one i go to.

 

[bunsen burner]

TAFE has its benifits for some courses like Hospitality, Mechanic and other trade types or the courses which give you a direct path into Uni.

Apart from that, TAFE is pathetic, well at least the one i go to.

Agree - great for tades and those courses that uni doesn't cater for (not technical or difficult enough to warrent needed a high TER), but comparing a TAFE course to a uni course of the same vocation then TAFE is a joke.

And trades is more about the apprenticeship and on the job learning than the theory you learn in TAFE.

TAFE is good for the right people and right industries. But people (read tradies) are kidding themselves if they thing TAFE is eityher a higher educational standard or is more relevant.

 

[Rob]

A fair bit when you're going for your first job. After that it makes no difference.

I would have said the opposite. Well sort of. Obviously a degree helps get you through the door, but if you reckon it's then worthless as a status symbol you're insane. A lot of promotions i've seen you won't get through the 1st stage if you don't have those letters after your name. And a B.Com looks a lot better than a DipBus.
And the higher you go up, the more the letters after your name mean. An M.Com or an MBA mean you'll almost always get to the final stage. Then it comes down to your presentation skills.

And of course, i'm talking about office jobs here.

 

[MightyFighting]

To browse through the TAFE catalog reveals very specific courses such as Picture Framing IIV or How to Write a Business Letter whereas uni subjects tend be, say, Linear Algebra, Fundamentals of Biochemistry, etc.

This bloke has to be a pisstaker.

 

[bunsen burner]

I would have said the opposite. Well sort of. Obviously a degree helps get you through the door, but if you reckon it's then worthless as a status symbol you're insane. A lot of promotions i've seen you won't get through the 1st stage if you don't have those letters after your name. And a B.Com looks a lot better than a DipBus.
And the higher you go up, the more the letters after your name mean. An M.Com or an MBA mean you'll almost always get to the final stage. Then it comes down to your presentation skills.

And of course, i'm talking about office jobs here.

You should go back and read what I said because you got it al wrong. I have said ad nauseum that TAFE degrees are pathetic when lined up against a uni degree in the same vocation. I also said that the uni you went to matters a fair bit when going for a grad position but after that it matters little. And I'm talking office jobs too.

 

[johnnyhoward]

This bloke has to be a pisstaker.

He is. Read some of his other posts regarding his missus. He starts the topic off serious, makes everyone believe he's genuine, then throws in a bit of subtle comedy. He's not bad at it either.

 

[Rob]

You should go back and read what I said because you got it al wrong. I have said ad nauseum that TAFE degrees are pathetic when lined up against a uni degree in the same vocation. I also said that the uni you went to matters a fair bit when going for a grad position but after that it matters little. And I'm talking office jobs too.

I wasn't questioning your comparison between uni and TAFE, just your comment that once you're in the door your degree means nothing. Status is still pretty rife in the workplace from my experience, and where you went to uni can count.

Not trying to justify it, just giving my experience.

 

[kolchak]

I wasn't questioning your comparison between uni and TAFE, just your comment that once you're in the door your degree means nothing. Status is still pretty rife in the workplace from my experience, and where you went to uni can count.

Not trying to justify it, just giving my experience.

This is a stupid thread for this forum, but, in answer to this post, yes, it does matter where you went. Reputation is important.

 

[FrediKanoute]

University hands down - if you want a trade be an apprentice and go to trade school!

Why? University is not about vocational training it is about teaching generic skills like research, reasoning, thinking and problem solving which enable you to do virtually any job. Yes there are specific vocational courses which require specialist traning, but even the majority of these have a highly theoretical element to them. For instance law is not so much about knowing the law but being able to reason, argue and predict how the law could apply to a case; similarly medicine is not so much about diagnosis and treatment as about developing a procedure and process by which you can actually do these things and also understanding the interplay between symptoms, conditions and treatment. In professions like medicine and law you have to do an extended period of practical work in any case before you are fully qualified.

As to whether a generalist or a vocational degree is the go, it depends on what interests your son. In the UK many students are encouraged to do generalist degrees with on the job training provided and further education undertaken where necessary. This tends to produce well rounded and diverse people rather than specialists. Australian education tends to be more vocational.

FWIW I pretty much agree with what BB has said above re choice of Uni's - go to the best one you can b/c it opens doors....thought what happens after you walk through the door is up to you!

 

[BomberGal]

A browse through the TAFE catalog reveals very specific courses such as Picture Framing IIV or How to Write a Business Letter whereas uni subjects tend be, say, Linear Algebra, Fundamentals of Biochemistry, etc.

Put it this way, you won't be a good biologist if you don't take "Fundamentals of Biochemistry" at university.

 

[Unwritten_Law]

Ok, stupid question, but what is the difference between a bachelor of commerce and bachelor of business. For me it is interchangeable, most unis offer one or the other but Monash offer both??? Obviously Commerce is the more desireable there [higher ENTER] but would you be better off doing Business at Monash or a Commerce degree at say Deakin? Bunch of cocksmoking academics are terrible at getting any sort of advice from, they obviously just push their own barrow. I'm just trying to work out my preferences for next year, looking pretty borderline for Commerce at Monash. Cheers.

 

[Mattlowry]

This topic is part of money and investing because education is an investment. Risk, diversification, costs, rate of return, etc apply to education just as they do to property and shares.

My son will finish his VCE this year and I am hoping he will get a really good ENTER. I am hoping he gets over 90. I have invested in a lot of private tutors and he seems to be studying so much that Asian kids are starting to accuse him of having no life.

Some people I have spoken to have said that university is a waste of time and that TAFE is better because TAFE gives you real skills that are suited to a vocation while university tends to be more general and theory-based.

However, my friend Frank says that only crap students go to TAFE. The elite all send their kids to universities, and not just any backyard university but the top Australian universities.

What I would like to know is how much status matters in higher education. For example, suppose you studied computer science or maths at Harvard University like Bill Gates did and compare that to, say, a computer course at Excomm or some TAFE. Even if the two places teach roughly the same thing it is probably naive to think that the two courses have the same effect on success in the labor market just because the course content is similar.

Another issue I'd like to explore is general subjects versus more specific subjects. I have a friend who claims that university is a complete waste of time. He came out of high school and became a plumber and now he earns money and has a house and car while all his uni friends of similar age are still slogging it out with exams and such. He claims that it is better to get money faster by focusing on more specific vocational courses at technical schools rather than waste time with the general disciplines at university. A browse through the TAFE catalog reveals very specific courses such as Picture Framing IIV or How to Write a Business Letter whereas uni subjects tend be, say, Linear Algebra, Fundamentals of Biochemistry, etc.

So basically a commerce degree at Melbourne Uni would need an ENTER of about 95 to get in, which means you'd have to be in the top 5 per cent. But why not just do a business course at some TAFE that doesn't even require an ENTER? Would they be the same?

Well i'm currently completing a double degree in commerce and law at the moment. Half of my friends went or are going to university and the other half are tradies so i think im in a pretty good position to answer alot of your questions.

Really deciding to go to uni or do a trade will end up very similarly financially these days. Both have their benefits, both have their disadvantages. It seems like your son is a fairly studious kid, and from some of the people my tradie mates hang around with he probably will enjoy the company infinitely more in an office job as opposed to a construction site.

Uni
Assuming you enroll into a general three year, government HECS supported degree such as a bCom for example
Pros
Depends on what you are interested in but if you want a white colour job its the way to go
Very social, will meet alot of people you're own age, it really is a great experience
Your son will be on holidays half the year. Generally uni is two 13 week semesters with exams so there are alot of holidays.
Those holidays allow him to work alot anyways. Tradies generally earn very poor money in their first two years anyway so he can work half as much and earn similar amount.

Cons
Costs a bit of money. A 3 year bCom will cost you are $18,000. My course will likely be a 5 year double with honours and cost me around $60,000. So depends on your course really.
You also aren't out there earning much money for a while so the tradies can get ahead of you and start buying houses, decent cars etc.

It really is much of a muchness and will all come down to whether he wants to be a tradie or not, but from the sounds of it he wont want to. Trades pay very well now too so really depends on what type of person he is.

In terms of what university to go too, definitely one of the group of 8 above if at all possible. You can always try and transfer later, like i plan to do at the end of the year.

 

[bunsen burner]

I wasn't questioning your comparison between uni and TAFE, just your comment that once you're in the door your degree means nothing. Status is still pretty rife in the workplace from my experience, and where you went to uni can count.

Not trying to justify it, just giving my experience.

As I said: you did not read my post properly. Let me spell it out for you:

WHERE YOU DID YOUR DEGREE MAKES NO DIFFERENCE ONCE YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE.

A recruiter will not give a toss whether John Smith who is applying for a head developer role went to ANU or Broken Hill University.

Get it?

 

[bunsen burner]

He is. Read some of his other posts regarding his missus. He starts the topic off serious, makes everyone believe he's genuine, then throws in a bit of subtle comedy. He's not bad at it either.

I wouldn't say he's a pis staker - just makes up his threads. But he always has interesting and debatable topics so whether they're genuine or not is neither here nor there.

 

[bunsen burner]

Ok, stupid question, but what is the difference between a bachelor of commerce and bachelor of business. For me it is interchangeable, most unis offer one or the other but Monash offer both???

I would have thought that too and it is for most places - some unis call it business, some call it commerce.

Monash = knobs

Bunch of cocksmoking academics are terrible at getting any sort of advice from, they obviously just push their own barrow. I'm just trying to work out my preferences for next year, looking pretty borderline for Commerce at Monash. Cheers.

At least you are aware. Many students go through uni in awe of these knobs.

 

[kolchak]

As I said: you did not read my post properly. Let me spell it out for you:

WHERE YOU DID YOUR DEGREE MAKES NO DIFFERENCE ONCE YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE.

A recruiter will not give a toss whether John Smith who is applying for a head developer role went to ANU or Broken Hill University.

Get it?

Incorrect. May make some difference.

 

[deluxeman]

I would have thought that too and it is for most places - some unis call it business, some call it commerce.

Monash offers Bachelor of Commerce at its main Clayton campus, whilst Bachelor of Business is offered at its smaller campuses (Caulfield being one of them).

From what I remember when I was looking through it last year, I think the Commerce degree has a wider selection of majors than the Business degree and is held in a bit of a higher regard.

 

[bunsen burner]

Incorrect. May make some difference.

Extremely rare. Work reputation, knowledge, suitability for the job etc matter far more.

 

[Financialpanther]

Extremely rare. Work reputation, knowledge, suitability for the job etc matter far more.

A degree will only get you an interview - your aptitude, communication and confidence will get you the job.

 

[nicky]

As I said: you did not read my post properly. Let me spell it out for you:

WHERE YOU DID YOUR DEGREE MAKES NO DIFFERENCE ONCE YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE.

A recruiter will not give a toss whether John Smith who is applying for a head developer role went to ANU or Broken Hill University.

Get it?

This is not true, for example in melbourne if you didn't get your law degree at melbourne then you're looked down upon within the profession.

 

[nokiacasio]

Ok, stupid question, but what is the difference between a bachelor of commerce and bachelor of business..... Obviously Commerce is the more desireable there [higher ENTER] but would you be better off doing Business at Monash or a Commerce degree at say Deakin?

Here is my uninformed and non-expert opinion. Business = accounting, finance, and marketing. Commerce = business + economics + more. So commerce is more broad and I think commerce is more highly regarded based mainly on its higher ENTER. Commerce at Melbourne usually needs about 95 but if your parents are rich and pay full fee instead of HECS you can get in with 90.