Play Nice The CAS Appeal thread - update: appeal fails (11/10/16)

[imperial_oz]

When your buying supplies from a company that openly and forcefully tells customers not fit for human use, receipts are not a big priority.

Neither apparently, is the molecular weight tests that proved conclusively the substances was NOT Thymomodulin or TA1 but heck, why let the facts get in the way.

The results of the molecular weight testing were ratified by both the ASADA expert and the player's expert so really Thymomodulin is just never going to suddenly appear no matter how many photos they get out of magazines

 

[Muggs]

Neither apparently, is the molecular weight tests that proved conclusively the substances was NOT Thymomodulin or TA1 but heck, why let the facts get in the way.

The results of the molecular weight testing were ratified by both the ASADA expert and the player's expert so really Thymomodulin is just never going to suddenly appear no matter how many photos they get out of magazines

Plus the point that they players never argued they got thymomodulin....

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

Plus the point that they players never argued they got thymomodulin....

Even Chip is calling them out now ....

 

[yaco55]

I was musing who it might be that the Justice for 34 were trgating as there new champion in Canberra, looks like it might be Xenophon.

Haven't yet seen any response from him as yet though - can't see it getting any traction with locals here, that he represents.

The rest is stuff from the FB page.

http://www.sportsintegrityinitiative.com/campaign-alleges-flaws-judgement-essendon-players/

"...
The Justice for 34 campaign is seeking to petition Senator for South Australia, Nick Xenophon, for a Senate Inquiry in order to investigate the situation. Any such inquiry should ‘consider all the relevant facts so they are publically available’, reads its petition. ‘To date, the evidence against the players has been based on taking “bits out that might compromise what we need”’. It follows a call by Senator John Madigan for such an inquiry, as well as the release of three documents understood to be key to the case.
..."

Unless a 'smoking gun' comes out there will never be a Senate Enquiry which is what I posted 12 months ago - Both sides of politics in their own way interfered and/or placed undue pressure on ASADA. The two major political parties have skeletons in the closet.

The minor parties in the Senate have been pushing or a Senate Enquiry in 2016, unsurprisingly without success - The best option is to continue putting pressure on through Senate Committees.

 

[yaco55]

Yes, it's a bit of a mystery. Who now gains from this going on, stirring the pot time and agin, with the same, old material?

Certainly not the AFL.
Can't see the club wanting it to continue (greater risk that something definitive actually turns up).
Agree, would think the players themselves are doing their level best to move on, so this won't be helping them.

Disgruntled fans?

I suggest there is a push behind the scenes from legal eagles/academics.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I suggest there is a push behind the scenes from legal eagles/academics.

Microwave chefs.

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

Microwave chefs.

And possibly manually charged, sea-goers, who aren't all that fond of microwaved cuisine?

 

[Laphroaig]

I suggest there is a push behind the scenes from legal eagles/academics.

I suggest their is a desperate half arsed shove by the political fairies at the bottom of the garden seeking to hide the fact that they have * all to contribute.

And nothing of substance behind it at all. Let alone behind the scenes.

 

[Summer Nights]

The prosecution had plenty of evidence that TB4 was the thymosin that they had consented to. The manufacturer that sold it to Charters who then gave it to Alavi for Dank testified it was TB4. Alavi's assistant said it was TB4.

Source? Is this publically available information?

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Source? Is this publically available information?

It's all in the WADA transcripts if you care to read them.

I'll give you the bottom line from all the information I have. My source is an ASADA witness who knew Charters and Dank personally, so he is no mug.

The players and Hird did NOT know they were taking TB4. They are innocent of wilful cheating.
Dank not only gave them TB4 but a whole range of much stronger peptides from October 2011 to January 2012. I've seen an email from Dank to Charters where he boasted that he could give the players anything and they'd be none the wiser!
My understanding is the players do not want that to get out. They trusted the club which then let them down. The club realises this and hence were very happy to compensate the players via their insurance.

Dank needed to get results to promote himself as a guru of sport science. He was happy to trick the players to get those results.

 

[DERO]

It's all in the WADA transcripts if you care to read them.

I'll give you the bottom line from all the information I have. My source is an ASADA witness who knew Charters and Dank personally, so he is no mug.

The players and Hird did NOT know they were taking TB4. They are innocent of wilful cheating.
Dank not only gave them TB4 but a whole range of much stronger peptides from October 2011 to January 2012. I've seen an email from Dank to Charters where he boasted that he could give the players anything and they'd be none the wiser!
My understanding is the players do not want that to get out. They trusted the club which then let them down. The club realises this and hence were very happy to compensate the players via their insurance.

Dank needed to get results to promote himself as a guru of sport science. He was happy to trick the players to get those results.

Thanks for posting that but there is nothing groundbreaking there. Hopefully most objective Essendon fans realise that Dank gave the players prohibited substances and the club failed to adequately monitor this and as such is responsible. Hopefully most opposition supporters can recognise how the Essendon players were most likely the unwitting victims. Cheat is the label given but victim is probably more accurate. Hird unfortunately was the coach and should have swallowed his pride much earlier than he did. It is all much easier with hindsight though.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

It's all in the WADA transcripts if you care to read them.

I'll give you the bottom line from all the information I have. My source is an ASADA witness who knew Charters and Dank personally, so he is no mug.

The players and Hird did NOT know they were taking TB4. They are innocent of wilful cheating.
Dank not only gave them TB4 but a whole range of much stronger peptides from October 2011 to January 2012. I've seen an email from Dank to Charters where he boasted that he could give the players anything and they'd be none the wiser!
My understanding is the players do not want that to get out. They trusted the club which then let them down. The club realises this and hence were very happy to compensate the players via their insurance.

Dank needed to get results to promote himself as a guru of sport science. He was happy to trick the players to get those results.

Can you explain what they thought the Thymosin was that they signed consent forms for? And why they did not declare these injections to ASADA, if they did indeed think it was "the good thymosin"?

 

[DERO]

THEY WERE INJECTED WITH SCIENCY STUFF.

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Can you explain what they thought the Thymosin was that they signed consent forms for? And why they did not declare these injections to ASADA, if they did indeed think it was "the good thymosin"?

My understanding is that the stronger peptides stopped early but the TB4 continued. Dank himself thought he could get away with using it but convinced the players/club that "thymosin"was ok. Don't forget that the players were interviewed a year after all this happened. Their ability to remember word for word what was said is probably poor. The few that are asked if they took anything else obviously didn't want to disclose anything. Maybe it was because they signed confidentiality agreements too. I suspect they all thought something was fishy and that is why they got the consents made a few months after the program started.

 

[Summer Nights]

It's all in the WADA transcripts if you care to read them.

I'll give you the bottom line from all the information I have. My source is an ASADA witness who knew Charters and Dank personally, so he is no mug.

The players and Hird did NOT know they were taking TB4. They are innocent of wilful cheating.
Dank not only gave them TB4 but a whole range of much stronger peptides from October 2011 to January 2012. I've seen an email from Dank to Charters where he boasted that he could give the players anything and they'd be none the wiser!
My understanding is the players do not want that to get out. They trusted the club which then let them down. The club realises this and hence were very happy to compensate the players via their insurance.

Dank needed to get results to promote himself as a guru of sport science. He was happy to trick the players to get those results.

Thanks. I'll find and read the transcripts as I'm interested in much of the detail.

Thanks for the extra info, too. That's really worrying if true.

I'm a firm believer that anyone proven guilty of taking a prohibited substance be banned from competitive sport for life (unless it's something like strongman comps or bodybuilding, where it's a given at the highest levels).

If what you've said is true, I wouldn't know how to think of it. Even if the players didn't wilfully cheat, they still had access to and use of an unfair advantage and I don't believe it's fair to the rest of the comp if they continue to play after serving bans.

One of my issues is with the context of comfortable satisfaction of guilt for bans to be handed out. I don't hold the view that comfortable satisfaction for the purpose of a fixed term ban automatically means absolute proof for the purpose of a lifetime ban. It's simply not fair on the athlete to theoretically ban them for life if there's a thread of doubt.

Your info about the Dank and Charters email is also interesting. It suggests that Charters provided it to ASADA or someone with access to Dank's email account (possibly at Essendon) provided it to ASADA. I'd suggest the former. But why would Charters do that? For immunity, perhaps?

Emails can also be easily forged so I'd hope that anything used as evidence has been forensically analysed and not just reliant on a printout of an email trail.

I'm not trying to make excuses there but for something this serious, again... it should be 100% certain.

Question - do you know what other peptides they were given? Do you think Dank actually gave them whatever he wanted or was just bragging about what he could get away with?

Dank's motivation sounds very plausible.

I'd hazard a guess your source is Nima Alavi but of course I don't expect you to confirm or deny

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

My understanding is that the stronger peptides stopped early but the TB4 continued. Dank himself thought he could get away with using it but convinced the players/club that "thymosin"was ok. Don't forget that the players were interviewed a year after all this happened. Their ability to remember word for word what was said is probably poor. The few that are asked if they took anything else obviously didn't want to disclose anything. Maybe it was because they signed confidentiality agreements too. I suspect they all thought something was fishy and that is why they got the consents made a few months after the program started.

So willful ignorance, and plausible deniability, despite knowing that they were taking more injections than ever before, in ways that had them all raising their eyebrows and reporting back to each other how good they were feeling to the point that they felt the need to ask if the drugs were legal and then have the consent forms drawn up.

I have little doubt Dank sold them all a furphy based on his failure to understand that the compounding of TB4 did not render it safe for use, but the players and Hird knew that he was using Thymosin long before the consent forms were made and continued to keep it hush, as they thought they had found a loophole in the code.

The excuses sound eerily similar to every other team doping regime from around the world.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Your info about the Dank and Charters email is also interesting. It suggests that Charters provided it to ASADA or someone with access to Dank's email account (possibly at Essendon) provided it to ASADA. I'd suggest the former. But why would Charters do that? For immunity, perhaps?

Just a guess, but the ACC did have Dank's laptop early in the piece and did pass information to ASADA. Any such e-mail may have come from there.

 

[Catoggio76]

Hi.
Has anyone got an update as to the following:

Justice for the 34 and their push for an Australian Senate Inquiry.

The European Human Rights Court Appeal that was discussed in early 2016?

The Dank Court Case in Sydney that Barrett discussed on the Grand Final Footy Show for 2017?

 

[DERO]

So willful ignorance, and plausible deniability, despite knowing that they were taking more injections than ever before, in ways that had them all raising their eyebrows and reporting back to each other how good they were feeling to the point that they felt the need to ask if the drugs were legal and then have the consent forms drawn up.

I have little doubt Dank sold them all a furphy based on his failure to understand that the compounding of TB4 did not render it safe for use, but the players and Hird knew that he was using Thymosin long before the consent forms were made and continued to keep it hush, as they thought they had found a loophole in the code.

The excuses sound eerily similar to every other team doping regime from around the world.

LET IT GO MATE.

 

[coryne]

LET IT GO MATE.

That post is 3 months old .....

 

[DERO]

That post is 3 months old .....

I SHOULD REALLY LET IT GO

 

[Mningasimisonda]

I SHOULD REALLY LET IT GO

Let it go, let it go...

 

[Satan]

Let it go, let it go...

Only a parent with young children will appreciate thys

 

[VL3OJ]

Only a parent with young children will appreciate thys

I highly doubt that sorry Satan