The LolLimit Thread

[ashley12]

Ah, limit HoldEm, according to almost all losing NLHE players a game where you cant defend your hand, no-one ever folds, everyone sucks out etc... This of course goes against all common sense in regards to people playing badly = a good thing for you, making -EV moves etc... but anyway, I think we need a thread to discuss the game.

A couple spots I was in playing live 10 some times in the last few weeks I wanted to ask a few people about.

Live 10/20, 9 handed at this point of time, I went for a bathroom break and missed my bb. As such, I choose to post behind the button in the CO, paying both a sb and bb, so $15 total and am declared "in" for $10 at this point of time. Folds to a relatively solid regular who raises in MP. Folds to me in the CO. Button and sb are both solid winnings players, bb is a massive fish. Small blind looks like folding, others havent given anything away. Hero wakes up with A2o and ?????

A rough guide of MP's opening range in this game is probably 88+, ATs+, AJo+, KQ at a guess. He would limp some weaker suited aces and almost all pairs lower then 7 I think, plus some hands like JTs.

If I hadnt posted it would be the worlds easiest fold and we would move on. However, if I 3! and get everyone behind me to fold, I would have put in $20 voluntarily to get in a HU pot in position with an ace in a $75 pot assuming that MP doesnt cap, and AFAIK MP doesnt cap in HU pots, but that could just be a sample size issue.

Calling while cheaper could allow hands that have me dominated to get in behind me, and could have the crux of being double dominated by something like A9 behind me and QQ of MP. That would be bad.

I think if we are going to be folding hands as strong as A2o then we shouldnt be posting in and incinerating $15 straight of the bat. The game is somewhat aggressive preflop with this lineup so I thik there will be a raise around 50% of the time preflop, but that figure is slightly distorted because the #1 preflop aggressor is usually me playing something like 17/14 preflop.

Anyway, call raise or fold, its your move...

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Also, I might as well add some hilarious hands and things I have read to this OP...

Firstly a hand that I played...

Almost the entire table limps to me in the BB. I have 9:club:9:diamond: and since I have about 19% equity with 9 runners I stick in a raise. The table collectively grumble and throw in their now good money after bad. Entire table calls, so we have ourselves an 18SB (small bet) pot.

FLOP: 945:diamond:

Not that bad. I bet, and the entire table with the exception of one fold (while getting 25ish:1 on a call, against my range heavily weighted to one pair hands is pretty lol bad) So now our pot has grown to 13BB (big bets) or as the world would generally refer to it as $260. However, I can now bet $20 and give my opponents only 14:1 immediate odds to call rather then 27:1.

TURN: K:diamond:

Thats a fun card. I bet, and now get EVERYONE to call. I have to add in that in this particular lineup this day most of the table was varying between very passive and ridiculously passive. As such, thinking of what we want to see on various river cards. Well, any heart is bad, obviously I would have stuck in a raise with a big FD, but not everyone would, so that would suck. As would a diamond. So red cards not good. An ace allows 23 to get their, unlikely but possible. Cards Q-T allows a number of K high straights to get there, and cards 6-8 do the same. A king could give someone kings full, and even if the board pairs a little card, its not impossible for them to lolslowplay a set to the river. It really is. While some of these cards mightn't lose me the hand, like the 4 and 5's I estimate that I have 1 pristine out, and maybe about 10 other cards that save me this pot

RIVER: 21BB: 9:spade:

I bet and get I think 4 callers, might have been 3 or 5 but w/e. I roll my hand which is obviously good, and commence stacking about $500 worth of pot... Notice that not once did anyone apart from myself do anything aggressive... And I didnt do anything except consistantly fling poo

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And finally, a great blog that I read is the Taking a Shot blog, in which 2+2 poster Jesse8888 blogs about his life giving up his job programming to play limit hold em poker for a living, and the trials and tribulations that come with that. My favourite ever post from that is probably this one... which wasnt even from him but a friend, but anyway, I digress...

It's Friday and tourney week has created some great games, but it seems like a Friday night in 2004. The game is nuts, especially preflop. Cold calls abound, random limp three bets reign, the blinds always come along, large multi-way pots obviously are the norm.

WTK 2.0 has crashed and WTK 1.0 has been reloaded, but somehow lacks the turn c/r module.

The lineup: Seats 1 thru 9

Vernon
WTK
Me
Random Unknown Donkey
Tom B
Louie
Tagish Unknown Guy
Stuart (older italian looking lag tourney player)
Michael

Some good, some bad, and some ugly.

WTK has been raising preflop every 2nd or 3rd hand, from any position with a little as 63s. Stuart can open raise 64o utg, regularly three bet a single raiser with God knows what, and 3 barrels constantly. Not long ago he bought his third rack, ran it up to 2K and is back down to about $300. Vernon actually has several stacks and only started with his first $200 buy-in. Louie and the Tagish Guy are stuck and can hardly take any more of the insanity. They are playing very loose in the blinds, even for three bets. Michael is winning and playing nitty. Tom B is Tom B.

Louie has the button

Michael limps, Vernon limps, WTK raises, I call 78d, Random Unknown Donkey finds a fold, and everyone else calls to Stuarts BB who pops it, called to WTK who caps and everyone calls. For those of you following along at home that's 32 small bets.

Hey, this beauty plays well multi-way.

OK, hand ranges? Yeah, right. All the aggression came from the random players so nothing there. Michael can't have trash or small suited connectors but I can't rule out medium or small pairs since the last 100 pots have been 6+ way. WTK's cap means nothing. Louie doesn't have QQ+ or I guess AK. Unknown Taggish Guy thinks he's tricky and could. That's all I got.

A93r with one diamond.

Astute readers will noticed I flopped TWO backdoor draws. Of course someone else could have bigger diamonds giving me only one back door draw, but I can't let that little detail sidetrack me, can I? I also wonder who is more likely to call with just a backdoor diamond draw, the good players, or the bad players. Some good players don't really understand the math fully or just wouldn't do it so I conclude it's the bad players, not that this really helps me as I don't know who has what, but it flashed thru my mind on the flop.

It's checked to WTK who bets, (WTF?, raising just crossed my mind), I call hoping to get by on one bet but knowing I can go 2, and everyone called to the Louie on the button who raises. Tagish Guy now check three bets and everyone calls to WTK who calls, and I look left and Tom B is calling, but Louie gives away nothing. If they both call it looks like there will be 56 small bets and I have to call 2 more. If Louie caps there will be 64 and I will pay 3. ZOMG am I really going to do this? Could putting in 4 bets with 8 high possibly be correct? I call, as does the field. 56 small bets, hence forth known as 28 big bets, but the rest of the world knows it as $1120. That's more money than some American make in a month, and more than some in the world make in a year, but I'm a conservative and don't care about that. But I digress, again.

The turn is a FIVE, and completes the rainbow. So sweet. I now have 4 pristine outs. If some other idiot is in there with 78 I will kill him and take his money. I can call a bet, maybe a few. I'm expecting Taggish Guy to bet, and fearing WTK could raise (maybe I should have considered this before I got to this street) but everyone checks, I check, and it continues to Louie who bets, Taggish Guy calls, Stuart Calls, Michael and Vernon fold, WTK ...... Calls, I make the easiest call of my life getting 32:1 and almost closing the action, Tom B of course calls too.

So I'm guessing there is no drama or I wouldn't be telling this tale. The turn is a.....

SIX, a glorious, black, three humps with a thorn, six of clubs. I cannot fricken believe this. What have I done?!? I've taken two napkins and turned them into the stone cold nuts. I glance around, no one is looking at me, Louie is looking at Taggish Guy for his action and the checking starts, what's my play if it's checked to me, do I suddenly for the first time in the hand do something and donk or do I check raise the field? Can I possibly?

They will never see it coming. Of course I go for the glory.

And the fricken nit checked. My visions of another rack going into the pot are crushed. I'm somehow devastated while winning a 33 big bet pot.

(three seconds later) OK, I'm fine now, the pain is gone.

Stuart flips over some hand with an ace in it and before anymore hands are exposed I say "you guys are not gonna believe this" and turn my hand over. All hell breaks loose on 6th street. There are spectators I hadn't noticed. Everyone thinks I'm nuts. Louie is shooting daggers at me (on about 8th street he said he had a set of 9's). I break training and tell Louie the math was right. He grabs the A93 still on the felt and says "This was the flop" and later says "the math was right?" WTK backs me up, "it may have been".

Vernon says "it must be nice to be you" I reply "yes, in many ways"

The chatter continues, I have nothing to say, and just stack chips

For a long time.

By the time I'm done, Louie is gone. He really couldn't take it anymore.

http://jessetakesashot.blogspot.com/

So, how bout that limit hold em hey?

 

[mdc]

Of course posting is bad there, that goes without saying.

As for the hand, call>raise>fold. Maybe even fold>raise depending on how loose BB and how tight button is. In any case, call there is clearly the best option as it keeps your perceived range huge and allows you to rep whatever you like against MP.

 

[paxmaniac]

http://jessetakesashot.blogspot.com/

So, how bout that limit hold em hey?

Best blog ever.

 

[The Passenger]

limit holdems great. when your in a passive game with lots of callers like ash described above then it just becomes a lot more mathematical and if you tighten your range up a little bit and make sure you're getting in pots where you're hand is stronger than the average hand range then you should come out in front.

you've also gotta acceppt that you're big pairs will get cracked far more regularly but that's fine because you're still getting in more money whilst your good so when they eventually don't get cracked you'll rake in a big pot.

last time i played limit was a few months back at crown, and was getting agitated with folding so much (had junk) so play 56 otb after about 4 callers. flop nuts, and MP kept betting into me despite me raising every street which also dragged utg along he called the entire way but was clearly getting pissed off with MP who bet the turn and river when it was obvious i was going to raise. ended up about an 18 or 19 big bet pot of which about 14 was profit. happy days.

 

[paxmaniac]

Live 10/20, 9 handed at this point of time, I went for a bathroom break and missed my bb. As such, I choose to post behind the button in the CO, paying both a sb and bb, so $15 total and am declared "in" for $10 at this point of time. Folds to a relatively solid regular who raises in MP. Folds to me in the CO. Button and sb are both solid winnings players, bb is a massive fish. Small blind looks like folding, others havent given anything away. Hero wakes up with A2o and ?????

A rough guide of MP's opening range in this game is probably 88+, ATs+, AJo+, KQ at a guess. He would limp some weaker suited aces and almost all pairs lower then 7 I think, plus some hands like JTs.

If the raiser is as tight as you say, I'd actually be inclined to just fold and move on - you have three outs about 90% of the time, and even then you won't have much idea if you are good. I'd call or raise only if you think the player is weak postflop and likely to fold ace high hands he should be taking to showdown.

I don't mind posting in the CO by the way - you effectively pay 1/2 a small bet to see six or seven hands. It should pay off long term if you are a decent player.

 

[ashley12]

Of course posting is bad there, that goes without saying.

As for the hand, call>raise>fold. Maybe even fold>raise depending on how loose BB and how tight button is. In any case, call there is clearly the best option as it keeps your perceived range huge and allows you to rep whatever you like against MP.

How bad is posting, how much of my $15 do I expect to write off as a loss for this hand(obv the $5 but how much of my BB would I expect to lose posting in the CO?). I dont have any stats for playing online of any substance, but if someone does and would show how much of a bb they lose on average from the BB would be interesting to see. I estimate my hourly to be about $30, and at 30 hands an hour at a conservative guess means that I would expect to make about $6-$8 per hand for the "free" hands I would get. Therefore I need to have $7-$9 of the $10 back, which would be close IMO, probably a narrow loss of $2-$3 as a result of posting for these 6 hands, but close, plus is a negative of either wandering off for 10 minutes or waiting the 15 minutes for my BB.

Also, wouldnt I be able to rep a bigger hand by raising then calling? Most of the regs vs me, including this one, have taken a "lets get to showdown" approach to playing me, never bet/folding anything but air and usually electing to just check call. By 3betting I think I can get UI overs to fold the turn on the right kind of board (something like 67T-4) If I flat, I doubt that any raise on any street really gets him to fold something I really want him to fold apart from medium ace highs. I dunno, I thought it was a cool interesting spot...

Black_Thunder, you would love the Burswood limit game. Particularly one semi-reg who likes to play with around 100% VPIP. Money not an issue for him ldo. Anyway, if I can ever get the jesus seat on him (direct on my right) he loves to limp, and then backraise all kinds of crap, because it tilts the regulars, plus he knows I cap basically 100% of hands I would open in those spots, because of the gazillion people calling two cold with KTo and Q9s behind me. All of a sudden $240 pots appear out of nowhere, which are great fun when you can take them down with a pair...

 

[ashley12]

Bump for the fact that limit has been almost completely dead for the last few months, almost since I made this thread pretty much.

However, the new popular game with the new BI rules coming into effect this week has been Limit Omaha Hi, 10/20 bets and 5/10 blinds. A lot of decent fish in the game, and the lineup has been mostly full.

Im wondering if anyone has some good reading on the game. I would back myself to be a smallish winner, maybe the 3rd or so best player in the game at the moment based on my current mad skillz, but would really like to read more into it, as trying to formulate a strategy by just mashing together elements of my LHE and PLO games is probably not optimal.

Cheers

Ash

 

[paxmaniac]

Excellent news. When I saw limit Omaha at Burswood previously is was hilariously bad. Like five people playing the flop for a cap, when one player clearly had the nut straight (the other raiser had top set and God knows what the rest had). When I saw it, 6-7 players were seeing each flop. Huge pots, big variance, but I reckon you would turn an automatic +EV by playing pretty tight preflop (avoiding rundowns with top gaps etc), and then mashing the flop and turn whenever you have a big hand or lots of nut equity.

Drawish hands (like midddle rundowns) are probably worth more than in PLO since you will have the odds to draw on the flop and turn more often. Naked big pairs (AAxx and KKxx) are little more than set mining hands unless the table is playing really tight.

 

[ashley12]

The same thing (playing tight = +EV) probably applied to LHE as well, as well as the variance, just squared now lol.

I havent played in it yet since its re-emergence, since I have been playing great 2/3 tables when it starts, but apperently in the new rules which included the straddles etc... there is room to allow for more mixed games.

Personally I would love to see some

- Mixed Omaha
- Mixed Limit (LHE and LOhi)
- Mixed PLHE and PLO

etc...

Im going to try and campaign for a mixed Limit game first with the powers upstairs, and then go from there. I personally think that I am ~the best LHE player that plays regularly and would probably be in the top 20 percentile of LOhi players as well, so when we get both Omaha players getting frustrated at having to play around 13% of hands in full ring LHE and the Hold Em players calling down with one pair in Omaha, we have a potentially great game...