the midfield and our ruck stocks

[daics cousin]

Since we have supposedly recruited all tall kpp's.How and who will play in the midfield next season?Is it time for o'bree,burns,licuria to take a back seat?who takes over on a regular basis?Josh and richards ,can't hold the ruck ,who do we need to recruite,Only 2 ruck options not enough.your thoughts?

 

[goalpie]

Why cant Josh and Guy ruck all next year.

 

[Coin_Toss]

O'Bree doesn't need to take a back seat, as I believe he's a valuable player in the centre, the clearance king at the Pies. Dane Swan, Ben Johnson, Heath Shaw, Rhyce Shaw, Scott Pendlebury, etc to get some options through the midfield.

We will draft a ruckman in the pre-season draft. Sam Jacobs who progressed to senior level football in SA this year and was a state U18 representative. I think we will be eyeing him off if he still available at our first pick.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Why cant Josh and Guy ruck all next year.

Tell me the last time Richards played a whole season without getting injured.

 

[Coin_Toss]

Why cant Josh and Guy ruck all next year.

Since it's too risky to carry 2 ruckmen, and Richards is injury prone, we need to draft a ruckman, simple as that. What happens if Fraser breaks down, god forbid.

 

[daics cousin]

Guys i hope we do draft a reasonable ruck or ruck option(s) in the december draft.Who will be available?My concern is that a few other teams like the saints may take the best available because they will have an earlier pick than us.I believe we have pick 10.Do you guys believe we will get someone decent.2007 depends on who helps josh in the ruck,can't rely on richards,he'll play a few games and get injured as usual.My ideal choice is get a big bodied ruck in the draft and secure a ruck option on the rookie list.Your thoughts?

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Guys i hope we do draft a reasonable ruck or ruck option(s) in the december draft.Who will be available?

I get the feeling Bryan is our first option but he may slip to another club.
Keating's another possibility
Also Meyer
Is Cam Cloke a complete write-off or will we give him a last second reprieve?
Probably others too

None of the above are great options but all we need is a big body who can crash and bash.

 

[daics cousin]

What about jacobs and this kid griffith i have been hearing about.He's from western australia and is 209 cm,he would at least be worth a rookie position.Your thoughts?

 

[MarkT]

None of the above are great options but all we need is a big body who can crash and bash.

It isn’t all we need it is the desperation option we have left ourselves with. What we need is a quality tap ruckman so Fraser can be the relief rather than the main ruckman. Obviously we have gone past that for another year. As I have said numerous times before, the coach clearly doesn’t share the view that we are deficient ion the ruck. I just wish he would take a better look at that 2002 losing grand final team picture he has on his desk.

 

[daics cousin]

Mark T you are dead right.The funny thing about all this is that most supporters have been screaming for a top ruckman for years and malthouse still persists with his ideal of not needing a top big bodied ruck option.It has cost us time and time again...Should we all put a sign at the lexus centre saying.........Ruckman desperately needed over 205 cm please apply.................WE could have quite easily picked either renouf or hampson,or goldstein,.....one of them at pick 28....instead we have a COULD BE STAR WITH A BROKEN LEG.....who we won't see for 2 more years.....if he is any good.

 

[DarrenM]

I agree. Especially with Collingwood's midfield, they definately need an effective tap ruckman. In finals, pressure matches, a dominant ruckman is vital. Collingwood doesn't have a West Coast midfiled so antoher ruckman is cruical. I don't know about Byran, Keating may still be good. Either way they have to find someone.

 

[ant22]

Mark T you are dead right.The funny thing about all this is that most supporters have been screaming for a top ruckman for years and malthouse still persists with his ideal of not needing a top big bodied ruck option.It has cost us time and time again...Should we all put a sign at the lexus centre saying.........Ruckman desperately needed over 205 cm please apply.................WE could have quite easily picked either renouf or hampson,or goldstein,.....one of them at pick 28....instead we have a COULD BE STAR WITH A BROKEN LEG.....who we won't see for 2 more years.....if he is any good.

Has anyone considered that the club may have had there eye on either Hampson or Renouf at 28 but they were not available by then. Pehaps the club did not rate Goldstein or Tippet. Just because you draft a ruckman it does not mean it is going to solve the problem. They actually have to be able to play the game. From all reports Goldstein and tippett are very raw and would probably take 3-4 years before they play ones. what is that going to do to solve Frasers problems?? Everyone is making the assumption the 2 rucks(goldstein and tippett) would have been good players.The clubs that drafted the 5 or 6 rucks that were drafted needed ruckman. Maybe they drafted on need and paid over the odds and we drafted on talent.
Its all good and well to say we should have done this and that but we need to remember the draft is a lottery and sometimes the cards don't fall your way.
Agreed the ruck is a problem but remember people just because we draft a ruckman does not mean they will play.

As for Richards. The guy coped alot of stick this year and rightly so. But go back 2 years and many people(myself included) thought he would be a beter prospect int he ruck than Fraser. I reckon his injuries made him really timid this year but if he can get fit(Big if) and gets his head right there is no reason why he can't be a very good ruckman. He definately has the talent.

 

[MarkT]

Has anyone considered that the club may have had there eye on either Hampson or Renouf at 28 but they were not available by then.

So they may have miscalculated and the punt to take another KPP with a bung knee has potentially backfired. Is that a positive? You are clutching at straws.

As for Richards. The guy coped alot of stick this year and rightly so. But go back 2 years and many people(myself included) thought he would be a beter prospect int he ruck than Fraser.

Richards rating was typical Collingwood optimism and based on projected upside. That upside has not materialised. It may be injury or ability that has held him back but the reality is he has never actually performed at AFL level. It isn’t too late for him to develop into a handy player but the odds are stacked against it IMO. I watched the VFL prelim on TV and as much as you can tall from TV he was very disappointing. I suspect the only reason he is on the list is lack of competition..

He definately has the talent.

Based on what?

 

[sloth6]

What we need is a crash and bash ruckman, someone is going to the get the ball going our way. Someone that is actually put some physical pressure on players and crash some bodies.

 

[Dale Didak #134]

Well, it appears we have made up our in the PSD: http://www.realfooty.theage.com.au/realfooty/articles/2006/11/27/1164476135381.html
Says in the article that we have offered Bryan a two-year contract.

 

[understudy]

So they may have miscalculated and the punt to take another KPP with a bung knee has potentially backfired. Is that a positive? You are clutching at straws.

I doubt Hampson or Renouf were worth punting pick 10 on.

 

[goalpie]

Since it's too risky to carry 2 ruckmen, and Richards is injury prone, we need to draft a ruckman, simple as that. What happens if Fraser breaks down, god forbid.

So we pick up some hack ruckman who is useless as **** on a ball.

Keating is finnished.

Bryan couldnt even get a game a Carlton which says alot.

 

[Coin_Toss]

So we pick up some hack ruckman who is useless as **** on a ball.

We'll never know, unless we took the gamble. Dean Cox was taken in the Rookie Draft.

Bryan couldnt even get a game a Carlton which says alot.

Maybe so. We'll have to see if the rumours are true.

 

[ant22]

So they may have miscalculated and the punt to take another KPP with a bung knee has potentially backfired. Is that a positive? You are clutching at straws. Richards rating was typical Collingwood optimism and based on projected upside. That upside has not materialised. It may be injury or ability that has held him back but the reality is he has never actually performed at AFL level. It isn’t too late for him to develop into a handy player but the odds are stacked against it IMO. I watched the VFL prelim on TV and as much as you can tall from TV he was very disappointing. I suspect the only reason he is on the list is lack of competition..Based on what?

Based on the fact that he was an afl rising star nominee. Based on the fact that for half a season as a 20yo in 2004 he played very good football. The game in which he was nominated I think was against sydney and he had 30 hitouts most to advantage). Based on the fact that he has fantastic skills for a big bloke and moves well. His hitouts that year where excellent. I am not suggesting he is the answer , all I am suggesting is I reckon he was worth 1 more shot but I have no doubt he has alot of ability as a ruckman. Its his heart I am concerned about.

Clutching at straws. Geez for a bloke who one minutes says he knows nothing about the rookies your pretty quick criticise.


I hear you giving plenty of criticism but I don't hear to many solutions coming from you. you know nothing about the players in the draft and yet you say we should have taken a ruckman instead of a bloke who had a reco. Perhaps the bloke with the reco is a much better footballer than any of the rucks on offer at that stage. More players than not have come back from knee recos these days. Not everyone is like Davidson and Walker. I am not suggesting any of these guys are the right pick but give them a few years and then criticise

 

[schmendy]

I suppose all those suggesting we should have taken a ruck instead of the best available are in full support of the decision to take McKee and pick 7 instead of Pavlich at pick 4.

Similarly this crap about not drafting ruckmen. Since 1999 we have drafted Fraser, McKee, Richards, Fanning, C.Cloke and Hall. Now its true that most of these turned out crap but picking ruckmen is notoriously difficult. All the best ones seem to come late in the draft or as rookies (Cox) and they seem to be extremely fragile.

In fact, if you look at the last 5 or so drafts, no ruck seems to have come on (maybe Minson and doggie supportes thought he was a bad choice at the time). Essendon has delisted Cartledge, Carlton Bryan, Meesan (pick 7) has done nothing, Brisbane has so much confidence in Woods (pick 18) that despite also having Charman and McDonald and desperately needing midfielders they drafted Leunberger. StKilda's Brooks(high draft pick) hasn't come on. Essendon's Layckock (pick 9,10 or 11?) is much inferior to Richards.

Now we may need a ruck, but if a Goldstein, Tippet or Currie is no more likely to succeed than a Fanning, then why give up a draft pick at the national draft? I have no doubt that if available, we will pick up 1 or more in the PSD and rookie drafts.

 

[malteaser]

I totally agree, rucks take years to develop. Although, one midfielder might have been nice, having Kpp are a must they stablise the team, if the midfield could read the play and get the pill first no matter who was rucking, then we wouldn't worry about it.

Remember most ruckman haven't fully developed until they are 22-23, therefore by picking one now doesn't solve a problem now. Hence, Bryan could be a good move, Pagan didn't rate him but the few games I have seen him play (one against us) he was pretty good.

 

[MarkT]

Based on the fact that he was an afl rising star nominee. Based on the fact that for half a season as a 20yo in 2004 he played very good football. The game in which he was nominated I think was against sydney and he had 30 hitouts most to advantage). Based on the fact that he has fantastic skills for a big bloke and moves well. His hitouts that year where excellent. I am not suggesting he is the answer , all I am suggesting is I reckon he was worth 1 more shot but I have no doubt he has alot of ability as a ruckman. Its his heart I am concerned about.

So was Mathew Lokan. They give one out every week.
Define very good football. Jason Cloke played very good football in 2002. Richards half season was nowhere near as good as Jason’s 2002.

The point is, to say he definitely has the talent is just a massively optomistic Collingwoodism. There are huge doubts about his ability and on top of that there are huge doubts about his ability to ever be sound enough play to his potential and then the heart concern you have can be considered.

I don’t have any problem with giving him 1 more year. What I have a big problem with is going into a year with Fraser as number 1 when he isn’t a very good tap ruckman and Richards as number 2 and at this point there is no number 3. So we may take a Carlton offcast in the PSD IF he is still there for our pick. Let’s just think about that. A bloke who can’t stay on Carlton’s list let alone play seniors and who is passed up by 9 clubs that did worse than us last year. The guy may make it yet but drafting and general list management is a numbers game. The odds are stacked against most drafted players making it. I think the average career is 3 and a bit years. History says that of the blokes we just drafted half will be average and delisted within 4 years. Put that into context with having Richards as our only backup to an average tap ruckman and a hope of a PSD selection being available that has more doubts hanging over him than Richards.

Now ask me why Collingwood don’t win premierships!

you know nothing about the players in the draft and yet you say we should have taken a ruckman instead of a bloke who had a reco.

No I never said that. My issue, as I have said repeatedly isn’t really about the 2007 draft. It is context of our whole list management. In relation to this draft the bigger issue is that given our assessment of the talent and the players we though appropriate to draft why didn’t we have the ruckman already on the list. I have asked the same question for the last 5 years.

 

[MarkT]

Remember most ruckman haven't fully developed until they are 22-23, therefore by picking one now doesn't solve a problem now. Hence, Bryan could be a good move, Pagan didn't rate him but the few games I have seen him play (one against us) he was pretty good.

That is correct. We should have realised this 5 years ago. Ignoring the “distant” past, we should have realised this in trade week of 2006 and 2007. The fact is we have made poor talent assessments in key areas and repeated the mistakes year in year out. That is why we have a mid range list with important gaps.

By not picking one now we extend the problem. The problem we have been extending for so long that we still have the problem. IF we take Bryan and IF he is a decent ruckman he should be an addition to a drafted ruckman somewhere over the course of the last few years or he should compliment a traded for ruckman.

 

[Jimbeam]

Bryan hates pagan, and pagan hates bryan, this kid has wanted out of that club from almost day 1.. They just dont get along at all, and is the main factor in his limited game time. He would be a great pickup for us and can play forward.. pagan is a total fckbag when your on his bad side and only offered bryan a 12mnth deal. he wants 2 hence another chance at the big time, collingwood should seriously consider this kid, he would be a great asset for us.

 

[rick James]

My dad barracks for Collingwood, and I'm genuinely fearful of my safety at home this coming season.

Just from looking at your midfield, the best players looked old last year and the young blokes who are apparently going to fill the void, well, they don't look that good to be honest.

Not trolling, but I am flabbergasted that you guys didn't go for some top flight midfield talent. I mean, Dale Thomas is looking the goods but he's as much a flanker as any player i've ever seen. Reminds me of Cam Bruce a bit actually, just slightly smaller.

Are you guys worried about the midfield development? I spose, if you're going to be stacked in one type ofm player you'd prefer KPP over midfield, as midfielders can be developed quicker, but honestly I just really think your midfield is going to get carved this year.