Society/Culture The Philosophy Thread: Schopenhauer

[Gethelred]

Alright.

This thread is for discussion of individual philosophers or philosophies. First up with be Arthur Schopenhauer, known for The World as Will and Representation and The Fourfold Root of the Principle of Sufficient Reason.

Should conversation die down on Schopenhauer, a poll will be placed at the top of the thread after posters have provided suggestions for who the next philosopher should be, and you can vote on the candidate you wish to talk about. A biography and introduction to the resident philosopher's ideas will be provided by one of the people who voted for the philosopher when the thread changes.

Mods will try and be as permissive as we can, but philosophers must be able to be discussed within forum rules. We're not doing Alfred Baeumier, for example.

Go nuts from here. dorianyates, Episode IV (or anyone else) let me know if this is roughly what you were thinking or if you have any suggestions.

 

[Episode IV]

As someone who hasn't been fortunate enough to have studied and understood much in the way of philosophy - what is the general view on the philosophy versus the philosopher? ie. are we to expect that the philosophy is an approach to life and that it is the philosopher themselve's approach to life? Are philosophies meant to be great intangibles that people can't functionally live up to or can you view the philosopher's biography and see their philosophy in action?

Which leads me back here.

Philosophy is more about inquiry than it is about answers. The pursuit of wisdom, not necessarily an exposition on that "wisdom" itself. I think that there are times, however, when the parable or allegory philosophers sometimes use in order to demonstrate something is often a question in itself, posing as an answer.
There are times, also, when philosophers discuss the methods by which one achieves wisdom, which is wisdom in itself.

I believe that internal conflicts are something which cannot be really known by outside observers, but rather are something often only only hinted at - particularly when that internal conflict is often taken as a weakness or capitulation, and used as a weapon.

A common exhortation used by philosophers (Apollonian Greeks, originally, from memory) is "Know thyself".

Nietzsche's "Will to Power" concept carries with it the caveat that one must subject the self to a thorough, honest examination first... Which is where, in my opinion, a general objection to Nietzsche might begin to form. Unless one is capable of such a self-assessment at all, the Will to Power becomes something more like "Do as thou Wilt"... which is why I found that Gervais vid rather hilarious.
I'm finding myself drawn now to something I hadn't read before, which is Schopenhauer's "Will" theme... but I'm also appreciative of the observation that without Nietzsche, I might have simply absorbed it as a kind of wisdom, or "truth" rather than an idea. Hence that quote I added above... evil as good, good as evil... Beyond Good and Evil.

Often, that self-examination leads to seeing something in the self that one particularly doesn't want to see. Reactions to seeing something that one does not like vary.

Your use of the word "fortunate" up there gives one reason to pause for thought just in itself.

One might look at the end of Nietzsche's life, and think that it didn't end well for him. "Mutter, ich bin dumm".
Was it a life worth living? Were his final words even reported correctly?

Was Icarus right by flying too close to the sun?
I think a philosopher is one who asks that question at all, and a non-philosopher will just say "Of course not. He died. Duh."

 

[dorianyates]

Which leads me back here.

Philosophy is more about inquiry than it is about answers. The pursuit of wisdom, not necessarily an exposition on that "wisdom" itself. I think that there are times, however, when the parable or allegory philosophers sometimes use in order to demonstrate something is often a question in itself, posing as an answer.
There are times, also, when philosophers discuss the methods by which one achieves wisdom, which is wisdom in itself.

I believe that internal conflicts are something which cannot be really known by outside observers, but rather are something often only only hinted at - particularly when that internal conflict is often taken as a weakness or capitulation, and used as a weapon.

A common exhortation used by philosophers (Apollonian Greeks, originally, from memory) is "Know thyself".

Nietzsche's "Will to Power" concept carries with it the caveat that one must subject the self to a thorough, honest examination first... Which is where, in my opinion, a general objection to Nietzsche might begin to form. Unless one is capable of such a self-assessment at all, the Will to Power becomes something more like "Do as thou Wilt"... which is why I found that Gervais vid rather hilarious.
I'm finding myself drawn now to something I hadn't read before, which is Schopenhauer's "Will" theme... but I'm also appreciative of the observation that without Nietzsche, I might have simply absorbed it as a kind of wisdom, or "truth" rather than an idea. Hence that quote I added above... evil as good, good as evil... Beyond Good and Evil.

Often, that self-examination leads to seeing something in the self that one particularly doesn't want to see. Reactions to seeing something that one does not like vary.

Your use of the word "fortunate" up there gives one reason to pause for thought just in itself.

One might look at the end of Nietzsche's life, and think that it didn't end well for him. "Mutter, ich bin dumm".
Was it a life worth living? Were his final words even reported correctly?

Was Icarus right by flying too close to the sun?
I think a philosopher is one who asks that question at all, and a non-philosopher will just say "Of course not. He died. Duh."

You asked me about The Allegory of the Cave.
What are your thoughts on the Phaedo?

 

[Episode IV]

You asked me about The Allegory of the Cave.
What are your thoughts on the Phaedo?

I think you and I are running into the problem of "I haven't read it" all too often, preventing dialogue, unfortunately.
A quick Google search tells me it's something I probably should, though.

At the moment, I'm looking into Hindu philosophy.
I'm of a mind to tell another story, with regard to how that came about. Why I read the things I read.
It ties in with your other thread. There's certainly a fair amount of crossover occurring there, which in one respect I'm quite grateful for and in another I'm finding a bit distracting.

 

[dorianyates]

I think you and I are running into the problem of "I haven't read it" all too often, preventing dialogue, unfortunately.
A quick Google search tells me it's something I probably should, though.

At the moment, I'm looking into Hindu philosophy.
I'm of a mind to tell another story, with regard to how that came about. Why I read the things I read.
It ties in with your other thread. There's certainly a fair amount of crossover occurring there, which in one respect I'm quite grateful for and in another I'm finding a bit distracting.

I had a memory of something that relates to your previous post - you were talking about cultivating and supplying cannabis to your local cafe.

Do you mean the dilemma of a poor man stealing bread to feed himself.

A story from my own experience as a new cop, I was working in a poor country town and got called to a shop theft incident with my SGT. A poor guy had stolen a pack of steak and was on the run.

My SGT ran after him as if his life depended upon it. I was driving so I was far behind.

Obviously he stole the meat to feed himself. I couldn’t care less about it and wouldn’t have bothered pursuing him. But my SGT did care.

It’s crazy how people in the same situation can have such different perspectives on things

 

[Episode IV]

I had a memory of something that relates to your previous post - you were talking about cultivating and supplying cannabis to your local cafe.

Do you mean the dilemma of a poor man stealing bread to feed himself.

A story from my own experience as a new cop, I was working in a poor country town and got called to a shop theft incident with my SGT. A poor guy had stolen a pack of steak and was on the run.

My SGT ran after him as if his life depended upon it. I was driving so I was far behind.

Obviously he stole the meat to feed himself. I couldn’t care less about it and wouldn’t have bothered pursuing him. But my SGT did care.

It’s crazy how people in the same situation can have such different perspectives on things

Yes.

Morality being... an amorphous thing. Not absolute. Subject to motivation, both pure and impure.

I know I've mentioned Ender's Game more than once. But there's one little bit that addresses that situation and motivation.
I'll post a link because it's quite short. "Speaker for the Dead" is the second book in the series, following on from "Ender's Game".
Just a few short passages, and yet at least three ideas are alluded to.

A quote from Speaker for the Dead

A Great Rabbi stands, teaching in the marketplace. It happens that a husband finds proof that morning of his wife's adultery, and a mob carries her to th...

www.goodreads.com

 

[dorianyates]

I meant I was a new cop back then when the incident occurred.

Maybe a better way to deal with this thread instead of asking opinions on what philosophy someone has read is their views on concepts?

For example, in The Republic, they discussed « What is Justice? »

It’s interesting in the fact that there are so many things that ask this question re Tony Mokbel and the Lawyer X scandal.

The Ben Roberts-Smith case.

 

[dorianyates]

Yes.

Morality being... an amorphous thing. Not absolute. Subject to motivation, both pure and impure.

I know I've mentioned Ender's Game more than once. But there's one little bit that addresses that situation and motivation.
I'll post a link because it's quite short. "Speaker for the Dead" is the second book in the series, following on from "Ender's Game".
Just a few short passages, and yet at least three ideas are alluded to.

A quote from Speaker for the Dead

A Great Rabbi stands, teaching in the marketplace. It happens that a husband finds proof that morning of his wife's adultery, and a mob carries her to th...

www.goodreads.com

I’ll read Ender’s Game

 

[Episode IV]

I’ll read Ender’s Game

Changed my mind on something - don't watch the movie, if you're going to read it.
I did again the other night... it's junk.

 

[Episode IV]

I meant I was a new cop back then when the incident occurred.

I took it at face value - no judgment on your experience at the time. I've had a few experiences with police.
Mostly positive, one or two negative.
We demand perfection, and forget they are people.

Institutions... been meaning to get back to that.

Maybe a better way to deal with this thread instead of asking opinions on what philosophy someone has read is their views on concepts?

For example, in The Republic, they discussed « What is Justice? »

I was thinking along similar lines. There are so many concepts and questions being raised here it becomes a bit difficult wading through and answering only one thing.

It’s interesting in the fact that there are so many things that ask this question re Tony Mokbel and the Lawyer X scandal.

The Ben Roberts-Smith case.

I agree.

There are many current events we talk about which don't always see things from every perspective. Which is why I was initially quite pleased to see your "influences" thread, and quite annoyed at myself for forgetting Ender's Game at first.

 

[dorianyates]

I took it at face value - no judgment on your experience at the time. I've had a few experiences with police.
Mostly positive, one or two negative.
We demand perfection, and forget they are people.

Institutions... been meaning to get back to that.

I was thinking along similar lines. There are so many concepts and questions being raised here it becomes a bit difficult wading through and answering only one thing.

I agree.

There are many current events we talk about which don't always see things from every perspective. Which is why I was initially quite pleased to see your "influences" thread, and quite annoyed at myself for forgetting Ender's Game at first.

I’ll read Ender’s Game and re read Blood Meridian. You’ll enjoy Blood Meridian.

 

[Osho]

"Evolutionary"... that's an interesting context to place that question within. It came up very, very briefly in another thread.

I'm thinking about Memetics now. And Schopenhauer... the role of the philosopher.

You're right ... evolution is an odd reference here. Not to suggest it is excessive, or it produces a surfeit, but just looking at the products of evolution very broadly, it is prolific, and perhaps wasteful if one wanted to be judgmental. The theory not so much but its outcome, is not parsimonious.

I was responding to the idea of greed, excess etc. I regard those things often positively, not exclusively bad. Ideology can have one spiting oneself if one is not careful.

 

[Episode IV]

You're right ... evolution is an odd reference here. Not to suggest it is excessive, or it produces a surfeit, but just looking at the products of evolution very broadly, it is prolific, and perhaps wasteful if one wanted to be judgmental. The theory not so much but its outcome, is not parsimonious.

I was responding to the idea of greed, excess etc. I regard those things often positively, not exclusively bad. Ideology can have one spiting oneself if one is not careful.

Just going back to your original post, about art and creativity...

I'm reminded of a little exchange between faible and Taylor back in 2023.
Page one of https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/stop-comparing-communism-with-neo-nazism.1374693/

See anything there?

 

[Osho]

Just going back to your original post, about art and creativity...

I'm reminded of a little exchange between faible and Taylor back in 2023.
Page one of https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/stop-comparing-communism-with-neo-nazism.1374693/

See anything there?

I saw more evidence of why not to join any party One's idiosyncrasies are more dangerous when under the multiplier effect of a larger same minded group. If one is part of the whole universe rather than just the like minded, the world will be a safer less divided place. Let one's excessive energy, efficient digestive tract, unbound imagination work its life enhancing wonders without a strict party line.

More seriously, the ideological debate reminded me of Dosoevsky's Demons. Have you read that?

 

[Episode IV]

I saw more evidence of why not to join any party One's idiosyncrasies are more dangerous when under the multiplier effect of a larger same minded group. If one is part of the whole universe rather than just the like minded, the world will be a safer less divided place. Let one's excessive energy, efficient digestive tract, unbound imagination work its life enhancing wonders without a strict party line.

More seriously, the ideological debate reminded me of Dosoevsky's Demons. Have you read that?

I haven't read it, no. Actually, the only one of Dostoevsky's books I can remember reading is "Anna Karenina", which is probably not the best choice I could have made if I was limiting myself to only one.

That particular exchange stuck in my mind not because of the exchange of ideologies involved, but because of the relative artistry of the posts. I was thinking of the dumbing down of language, deliberate or otherwise, that has been occurring for quite a while. In some cases, those who have been dumbed down can't even understand complex language at all any more, and a fair amount of opposition can come not from the idea behind the words, but the words themselves.
It might have been a bad example, really. Yes, the group dynamic was in play as well and might have distracted from what I meant to say.

I'm a great fan of language and the artistry with which it can be sometimes used, but unfortunately these days its begun to feel like I have an interest in coopering.

You middle sentence has me wondering if the username was chosen deliberately? There's only one Osho I'm familiar with.

 

[dorianyates]

I saw more evidence of why not to join any party One's idiosyncrasies are more dangerous when under the multiplier effect of a larger same minded group. If one is part of the whole universe rather than just the like minded, the world will be a safer less divided place. Let one's excessive energy, efficient digestive tract, unbound imagination work its life enhancing wonders without a strict party line.

More seriously, the ideological debate reminded me of Dosoevsky's Demons. Have you read that?

If one is part of the whole universe sounds like something Schopenhauer would say

 

[Osho]

I haven't read it, no. Actually, the only one of Dostoevsky's books I can remember reading is "Anna Karenina", which is probably not the best choice I could have made if I was limiting myself to only one.

That particular exchange stuck in my mind not because of the exchange of ideologies involved, but because of the relative artistry of the posts. I was thinking of the dumbing down of language, deliberate or otherwise, that has been occurring for quite a while. In some cases, those who have been dumbed down can't even understand complex language at all any more, and a fair amount of opposition can come not from the idea behind the words, but the words themselves.
It might have been a bad example, really. Yes, the group dynamic was in play as well and might have distracted from what I meant to say.

I'm a great fan of language and the artistry with which it can be sometimes used, but unfortunately these days its begun to feel like I have an interest in coopering.

You middle sentence has me wondering if the username was chosen deliberately? There's only one Osho I'm familiar with.

Yes, Osho is likely the one and same.
He was a fraud, and I fear I may also be.

Communication - modern technology is geared to short quick texts, summaries, condensation, limited time investment, entertainment, fissure. All these promote superficial fast data processing, and response..

I suppose the more interesting turns of phrase and elaborate expression are not usually welcome, and are rare, and stand out like a rose in a dirt bin when sighted.

 

[dorianyates]

Yes, Osho is likely the one and same.
He was a fraud, and I fear I may also be.

Communication - modern technology is geared to short quick texts, summaries, condensation, limited time investment, entertainment, fissure. All these promote superficial fast data processing, and response..

I suppose the more interesting turns of phrase and elaborate expression are not usually welcome, and are rare, and stand out like a rose in a dirt bin when sighted.

Osho, is your name after a Buddhist leader?

 

[Osho]

Osho, is your name after a Buddhist leader?

Indeed.

 

[dorianyates]

Osho

 

[Osho]

If one is part of the whole universe sounds like something Schopenhauer would say

Yes, perhaps. It's obvious subjectively after contemplation imo.

 

[dorianyates]

Yes, perhaps. It's obvious subjectively after contemplation imo.

Are you Buddhist?

 

[Osho]

Are you Buddhist?

No, Vedantic.

Auto spell wants me to write Pedantic

 

[dorianyates]

There are a couple of stories from Buddhism that I can relate to through my work.

The first one was when a grieving mother approached the Buddha crying about the death of her child and the Buddha told her to find a woman without suffering - from memory it also involved a kernel of corn. The woman came back to the Buddha saying she couldn’t find anyone.

The other story was his origin story when he left the palace of his father and discovered a poor man, a dying man and a dead man.

 

[Episode IV]

Yes, Osho is likely the one and same.
He was a fraud, and I fear I may also be.

I knew him as the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, many many moons ago.
Got (peripherally) mixed up in the whole South West WA thing for a few months. Had a few friends who were tinted slightly Orange, got involved, stayed a few months for the ahem lifestyle, and then woke up one day.

Teenagers are among the most gullible folks on the face of the Earth, when you get right down to it.

 

[dorianyates]

I knew him as the Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, many many moons ago.
Got (peripherally) mixed up in the whole South West WA thing for a few months. Had a few friends who were tinted slightly Orange, got involved, stayed a few months for the ahem lifestyle, and then woke up one day.

Teenagers are among the most gullible folks on the face of the Earth, when you get right down to it.

You knew him?

I only looked it up after your discussion with Osho.

Have you been to India?

What are your thoughts on Buddhism?