The "Play a hand with me" Thread

[ashley12]

Matty, feel free to mix this is with another thread if you want, but I thought it might be a reasonable idea to have a thread where we analyse a hand step by step. We can either have a thread for each hand, or all of them here, but anyway, I think its cool to have a thread dedicated to longer hands with multiple decision points to think about.

General details.

2/5 Burswood on a Friday night. Game isnt a great one for a Friday night, but there are enough loose passive players and overly aggressive guys to make it an ok game. Ash is playing 700, has an aggressive image but I am probably tighter than people think I am, because I tend to play hands a lot more aggressively than others, and will rarely take overly passive lines.

Villian is an older guy who is usually loose and passive but has spazzed out against me in the past on different occasions (once limp raised KJo, also raise folded bottom pair once against me when I had a set). He knows he shouldnt be checking and calling/folding vs a punk like me but doesn't quite know what the best way to combat me is I think.

Effective stacks are 300.

He limps UTG+2. A few seats over I get AA and raise to 20. Everyone folds, he calls, heads up.

FLOP: $47: KKK

He checks over to me like I would expect him to do almost all the time. Whats our play? If we bet, what is our sizing?

Il leave this here for a few days, and then go to the next part of the hand.

 

[JuddsABlue]

(based on flop of KKK) In a vacuum I'm betting, though def sometimes against certain people a check can sometimes induce mega spazz on later streets

Probably betting somewhere around the $15-$20 mark, sometimes $30-$35 being read dependant

Against described villian I bet $20

 

[baz_machine]

i don't know if it's my broswer but it comes up as FLOP: 47: KKK

????

 

[JuddsABlue]

i don't know if it's my broswer but it comes up as FLOP: 47: KKK

????

ah yeah, i just noticed, i based my assumptions off a flop of KKK

47 could be size of the pot, two $20 bets and BB $5 SB $2

 

[Goodo73]

flop of KKK

47 could be size of the pot, two $20 bets and BB $5 SB $2

That's the way I read it too

 

[ashley12]

Yes, pot is $47 with myself and the villain having put in $20 each, and the blinds having put in a combined $7 into the pot (not having adjusted for rake)

Apologies for the error/confusion.

 

[Happy Daze]

Against a passive villain I think I'd try to get 3 streets, especially on that flop, so I'd like to have the option of getting his entire stack in by the river. So I'd be bombing large flop and turn and leaving a pot big enough to shove into by the river that makes sense to a passive player, especially given you have an aggressive image. Versus a passive player you really have to take the initiative to build a pot with what is a dominating hand. If you bet too small on the flop or turn getting full value will be difficult. Against a better player you would have to accept you are not going to get full value most of the time, so I'd be betting closer to half pot, and accept you might only get one or two streets, if that - but against this guy I think you can let rip.

Something like 30 +, 60 +, the full arsenal on the river, I'd even go closer to 40/70 - 80, shove river, depending on what sizing you've seen him call in the past.

One of the last ones of these you posted the villain had flopped quads. Pocket 10s vs your AA I think?

 

[ashley12]

Not sure, but the only hand I remember where I ran into quad tens off the top of my head I made a pretty ridiculous call with Ace high on T8x-T-x where the way the hand played out his only value hand was TT, and he had it, so my AJo or whatever went in the bin

Pot was a couple thousand IIRC.... but completely unrelated to this hand.

 

[Happy Daze]

Not sure, but the only hand I remember where I ran into quad tens off the top of my head I made a pretty ridiculous call with Ace high on T8x-T-x where the way the hand played out his only value hand was TT, and he had it, so my AJo or whatever went in the bin

Pot was a couple thousand IIRC.... but completely unrelated to this hand.

Apologies.

 

[baz_machine]

think happy daze has summed it up well

your betting 90% of the time in that position on the flop, so just lead out $30 and keep barreling all streets

 

[ashley12]

Cheers for responses.

In the end, while betting smallish crossed my mind, I eventually decided to check back. Generally speaking at the time, I was pretty sure that he would fold most of his non-ace high unpaired hands to any bet larger than half the pot, and that the value of getting him to spazz out/make a decent full house would allow me to go largish bet on the turn, and full pot on the river. While some people might suspect a bit of a trap with a check back followed by further action, I doubt our opponent understand that. Generally, I thought it was more important to get the first $100 from him over two streets as often as possible as opposed to getting the full $280 over three (which will rarely happen without a good full house which he is unlikely to have yet).

So I check hoping for a Q-T type turn card

TURN: $47: KKK-A

He thinks for a bit and checks.

What is our play?

 

[baz_machine]

Well the A almost completely shuts down the hand as the only hand he'll continue with is Ax which is highly unlikely since you already have AA.

I'd check back and hope he bets on the river

Edit : Or Kx in which case it doesn't matter how you play it; the stacks are going all in on the river

 

[Happy Daze]

^ ^ if two streets is something which is standard in this game, I'd be raising more preflop, probably to ~ 30 (or even higher, guess it depends on his tolerance), especially versus a loose-passive player who will (I assume) want to see flops. That way you can still have the option of getting most of his stack on the river, even over two streets.

As played, that's probably the worst card in the deck for us - the only hope we have is that he has the case A, unlikely given there are 3 blockers now to him having it; he's obviously just as likely now to have the case K. I think now you do have to bet, but the question is what hands is he going to call with given he should know you probably have a lot of Ax hands in your range that have him crushed if he has a pair in the hole, probably which was the only hand you would have got 3 streets out of apart from Kx. I would bet now just with the justification that he's spewy, but I don't mind checking behind now that you've repped weakness on the flop - he can still be spewy on the river if you really under-rep your hand.

 

[Happy Daze]

Thinking more about this hand I'm much more inclined to chk turn, for the reasons above, and as Baz also says - overall however I do get very twitchy and exhibit strong withdrawal symptoms (bloodshot eyes, excessive fidgeting etc) if I get to a turn and its checked to me HU and I don't bet after checking flop with a flopped FH.

 

[JuddsABlue]

99% of the time you bet this the hand ends there

1% of the time he has an ace and you get his stack

Given effective stacks here are $280, its hard to imagine not being able to get his stack on the river if he has an ace (read I dont think you lose any $ against his Ax range with a check here), plus his bluff range increases on the river if you check imo

For this reason I check again, with the idea of a shootout on the river

 

[ashley12]

In the end I decided to bet small. At this point, if he has a hand worse than QJ he is almost certainly not going to give me any money. Its an unfortunate turn card, but whatever.

Ash bets $20, villain thinks for a bit and calls.

RIVER: $87: K-K-K-A-4

He thinks for a bit and checks.

What is our play (we have approximately $250 back effective

 

[baz_machine]

Check back

Well the options are another small bet of say $35 - $40.

Pocket pair may call that down; Ax, Kx would obviously reraise.

Other option is a big overbet say $70 - $90

Pocket pair once again may call if he thinks your bluffing.

So I guess the choice is do you think he is going to call a big overbet if he thinks your bluffing? If no, then I think the smaller bet is the more likely to get a call.

 

[Happy Daze]

Hey Ash, would probably just bet river, something around $50 vs this generic type of player.

However I don't really have a handle on the player from the info given - vs an aggressive player I would tend to put in a smaller bet, something small enough that looks like a blocker bet like a pair that has a FH that is scared of the A, and is thus susceptible to a bluff-raise on the river - though I guess to get paid off it depends on how they percieve us as a player and whether (hopefully) they think we are susceptible to river bluffs. Aggresive players will more likely play their air aggressively vs players they think will fold.

Vs passive players in a live setting I think live physical reads are very important - I think before you put in any bet on the river you should be planning ahead what this particular player type might do, and how you react to that. You've said he's "spewy" (spazzed) but a spew means losing $ overall - often "spewy" players will check their monsters, hoping someone will bet (I've seen players check sets to the river on uncoordinated boards OOP hoping "someone will bet!"), and spew $ overplaying their draws with massive overbets - either play is a spew overall.

Reads are important: I played a live hand today where I raised pre with AAch, flop was 863ccc, called by 3 players. I cbet, get called in two places. Turn is an offsuit K, I bet, 1 fold, 1 call by a player who has played 80% of hands, called about that same amount flops and turns, river is an 8. Now vs *some* passives this is a clear value bet, but on the river, he was OOP and paused for maybe a second, his hand checking motion stopped in mid-air. I read this he had rivered something too good and had paused unconcsiously for a brief time deciding what to do (obviously, while he can call a wide range on the flop, like draws or second pair, the most logical hand that will call a river bet is a flopped top pair that tripped on the river, while a great deal of his range will fold to further pressure, flatty though he is). So I checked behind and was lucky that he was transparent enough and that he'd flatted my raise from the SB with 68 o.

So the anecdote of the previous paragraph is just saying, "it really depends", but TBH in the hand you've described if you bet any street I don't think its a mistake. Sometimes when we bet we don't know whether we are doing it for value or as a bluff (for example with AK on a 6 high board on the flop), which are the two basic reasons to bet - even with a very strong hand we can bet sometimes for value but still be behind, but that doesn't diminish the value of betting.

This is all a long winded way of saying, river = bet! After that.....

 

[ashley12]

Completely forgot about this hand lol, been busy actually playing.

I ended up going for a biggish bet (can't remember exactly but it was bigger than 3/4 pot)

I got check/minraised, and was all set to fold until two players talked about "folding the king" which I took for they actually had folded it earlier in the hand and convinced me to call. Sure enough villian rolls KQo and scooped.

All things considered I butchered the hand pretty badly for the most part from postflop onwards, but talkinga about hands we mess up helps us become better players.

------------------------------

As an aside happy_daze I think I would check back the river with the Aces hand a lot of the time vs most kinds of recreational players unless you are really targetting hands that include the king of clubs I guess. He will presumably fold all the missed draws and a lot of other hands are now a bit better than yours. Had the flop been K8x-x-8 I would bet/fold river though.