The trouble with a big stack....

[red+black]

I think the best advice is: seeing as we have a great stack and are admittedly playing scared against the other big stack, cash out already FFS or if not, do not tangle with the other Mr Big. Fold pre-flop and all your worries go away.

OP, you said the guy was a tight super player. Did you mean super tight? I'm not sure how either is fitting for someone looking to shove 5k into a pot with a Jamie Gold special.

 

[ashley12]

I think the best advice is: seeing as we have a great stack and are admittedly playing scared against the other big stack, cash out already FFS or if not, do not tangle with the other Mr Big. Fold pre-flop and all your worries go away.

OP, you said the guy was a tight super player. Did you mean super tight? I'm not sure how either is fitting for someone looking to shove 5k into a pot with a Jamie Gold special.

One moment this guy is a tight player, then he is shoving/going overboard with TPTK. I dont get it...

I agree with most of this, if you dont want to lose the money dont put it on the table....

 

[mdc]

Now I might be unfamiliar with 5/5 games with a 200 buy-in and two players getting 25+ buy-ins or 1000 BBs deep, but you'll have to explain how raising the flop or turn isn't marginal, isn't wrong, isn't bad, but is actually "hilariously bad" as you put it.

If he's shoving AQ on a Q89 board, he's also shoving AQ on a Q8925 board, thus raising flop is hilariously bad.

As an aside, realistically, the range given by the OP seems like revisionist analysis to me. It's far too narrow. For example, I don't buy that someone who is willing to shove $5000 on TPTK is also folding Q9 preflop.

Now given this idiot villain's propensity to make bets irrespective of pot size, what do you suggest when he bets 800-1000 on the river? Fold because that was our intention the whole way by flatting every street with bottom two pair on the flop? At what point do we define his range or his affinity to his hand? Is our intention to call the whole way down no matter what cards come?

If checked to, you obviously bet turn.

If he bets 500 on turn as before, and then bets 800-1000 on a blank river, you call. If he bets 800-1000 on an A or a Q, I think you can happily fold it.

I'm with R+B. If you weren't actually playing scared, and prepared to lose $5k from a favourable position then a flop or turn raise is certainly correct if your read on the player is correct (i.e he is willing to go bust with TPTK or overpair).

One's reads 22 hours into a session don't tend to be that crisp, so I certainly wouldn't want to be putting $5000 worth of faith into them.

But in this case, even if reads were spot on, and opponent's hand is face up, calling is still better.

 

[paxmaniac]

If he's shoving AQ on a Q89 board, he's also shoving AQ on a Q8925 board, thus raising flop is hilariously bad.

Not if he thinks he's value betting a weak opponent and the pot is small.

As an aside, realistically, the range given by the OP seems like revisionist analysis to me. It's far too narrow. For example, I don't buy that someone who is willing to shove $5000 on TPTK is also folding Q9 preflop.

True, but 89 is way ahead of about 95% of the Villain's range, even if we include Q9.

But in this case, even if reads were spot on, and opponent's hand is face up, calling is still better.

Why? Do you have an aversion to getting money in the pot as a massive favourite? If the read is correct, then surely you want to build a big pot?

 

[red+black]

If he's shoving AQ on a Q89 board, he's also shoving AQ on a Q8925 board, thus raising flop is hilariously bad.

As an aside, realistically, the range given by the OP seems like revisionist analysis to me. It's far too narrow. For example, I don't buy that someone who is willing to shove $5000 on TPTK is also folding Q9 preflop.

If checked to, you obviously bet turn.

I still think my line is raise 3x on the flop, he calls, rag turn, he checks, I bet, he folds.

In a vacuum of course.

 

[Borgsta]

If he's shoving AQ on a Q89 board, he's also shoving AQ on a Q8925 board, thus raising flop is hilariously bad.

As an aside, realistically, the range given by the OP seems like revisionist analysis to me. It's far too narrow. For example, I don't buy that someone who is willing to shove $5000 on TPTK is also folding Q9 preflop.

Thats the thing though. How can we be sure that he would have shoved AQ on a Q89 board.

I think in most situations if raised on that board the villian would flat call and see what the turn brings. If facing another big bet on the turn there is no way he would call.

 

[mdc]

True, but 89 is way ahead of about 95% of the Villain's range, even if we include Q9.

We don't care about villain's range here. We care about villain's 4-bet range. And even if we conclude that he will be 4-betting with overpairs and TPTK, chuck {AA,KK,AQ,Q9,JT,99,88,QQ} into stove and see what you get. I'm guessing 40% or so.

Why? Do you have an aversion to getting money in the pot as a massive favourite? If the read is correct, then surely you want to build a big pot?

Again, which part of the read? The part where he's supposed to overshove for 3x pot after you 3-bet with every hand worse than ours, but check every hand better?

Villain is doing a brilliant job bloating the pot himself, and you have position on him. Just see a safe turn and river and get it in then.

Just for fun, let's treat this as a toy game, and give villain {AA,KK,AQ} face up, along with the inability to check with top pair or better.

Option 1: Stack off on flop.

Equity = 0.72 x (+5000) + 0.28 x (-5000) = 2200

Option 2: Call flop, Call turn, Shove safe river

100 invested on flop.

If turn is A or Q (roughly 5/44), we fold to 500 bet. Otherwise, we call 500 bet (39/44).

If the river is an A, Q or repeating turn (roughly 8/43), we fold to a bet of say 1000. Otherwise, we re-raise the bet of 1000 to 4000 (near enough to all in).

So our equity = -100 x (5/44) - 600 x (39/44) x (8/43) + 4600 x (39/44) x (35/43) = 3208

So over $1000 better off.

 

[mdc]

Thats the thing though. How can we be sure that he would have shoved AQ on a Q89 board.

I think in most situations if raised on that board the villian would flat call and see what the turn brings. If facing another big bet on the turn there is no way he would call.

No, but had you simply flat-called the flop, he might have spazzed and overbet the pot on the turn

That's the point. A flop raise with 89 will get rid of a lot of hands that would otherwise keep betting (like QT, QJ, bluffs etc), and will be raised by hands that often have it crushed.

If the board was K89, I think it's slightly closer, although I still like call against most opponents, especially if they're prone to overbetting the pot on the turn with TPTK 1000BBs deep.

 

[paxmaniac]

If the board was K89, I think it's slightly closer, although I still like call against most opponents, especially if they're prone to overbetting the pot on the turn with TPTK 1000BBs deep.

Against most opponents, I also like call. Against an opponent who we think is spazzing out with TPTK, I like to build the pot, probably on the turn.

 

[mdc]

Against most opponents, I also like call. Against an opponent who we think is spazzing out with TPTK, I like to build the pot, probably on the turn.

Why? Let him keep spazzing. If you really want, put in a raise on the turn to build pot.

The only time I feel raise is good is if you're up against a passive calling station.