Current The Western Australian Current Trials Thread

[Dan Baker]

Yeah course they had maps. But some people had an obvious interest in GPS which goes with the maps. They even had handheld GPS. Not that it mattered with roadside placement, although Pippidinny would have been harder to get in the right spot at night and was considerably off the road down and embankment. Hardly conducive to 'dumping' as some people have adamantly pointed out over and over.
Police have said bodies were deliberately placed.

Lets just see what the court has to say, which will bring out considerable evidence. No one has said a UBD hasn't been used. But based on what has happened, they need a bigger map.

Id like to know where Kerry Turner was left exactly. I have had to argue police had DNA and was told I was an idiot. People have sat there ad nausea rotating their finger pointing at the 6 cleared POIs when people have said the POIs were cleared.

I have to say, if there wasn't some geo-spatial relevance to this case I wouldn't be here. But I have seen a lot of people carry out personal attacks and character defamation like they have some self involvement in the case, whether that be a relative, and or to the point of nearly being a an associate to the crime with knowledge of what happened. Its the weirdest thing. Unseen in other online crime discussion.

Dont worry, most of it was done by hand on a map somewhere. Just tryin to work out where large topos might have come from. Maybe Dumas house.

No, it wasn't.
Everyone had maps back then, even street directories.

 

[Dan Baker]

Yes it was developed in the 40's. ffs you people are so limited

I'm not sure whether it is tunnel vision or they are in the business of interfering in the case.

Obviously there appears some people online that don't want this case persecuted. Deliberate attempts at interrupting the case.
Police say blue, they say black. Then it turns out the evidence is blue. The same people over and over again.
Continuous slander of police operations. Undermining of integrity. Allegations of corruption.

If police don't follow procedure their evidence is inadmissible.

It has been a procession of rolling police teams which prevents any corruption. There have been experts from all over the world. The original POIs did some stupid things that attracted police attention. The current accused had no priors and really no close relation with the victims which makes the contemporary crime much harder to solve.

For DNA to turn up on multiple items over different cases they would need the accused DNA to place on different items. Not impossible, but after all the other POIs thats a hell of a lot of effort.
And why? Why would police want to run around doing all this? Talk about conspiracy theory.

Its only now that DNA technology advancement allows for finding people that they managed to locate someone. And that facilities holding evidence were upgraded that all the states overwhelming evidence can be mapped of its location.

Because police have enough to convict, unlike the other POIs, police have charged the accused with a number of crimes.

Just because police haven't been able to find someone doesn't make the criminal a genius. Making a map doesn't make the culprit a genius. It makes them an a-hole.

Reverse engineering a crime is ten times harder than the idiot that carried out all this crap. But I bet you the megalomaniac dickhead that did it thinks he is some sort of genius.

The crime was committed when technology was expensive, and security limited which is part of the reason criminals were targeting Stirling highway.

Sorry, some people are talking so far out their backsides, its like they are tweeting out of prison and have no idea of police procedure or the constraints they operate under.

I can see the person that ends up persecuted for this crime, thinks he is some sort of martyr.

Anyone who thinks these girls were rich, has not met rich girls.

But he is a self important, insipid delusional meat head or meat heads. I just wish Birnie had been kept alive not allowed to hang himself. Kept alive in his hell. Death is the easy road which is why Birnie took it.
Birnie took a girl from the Conti. Birnie was just another hater. Self hatred of an excuse of a insipid @$%.
I hope the end persecuted rots in his own self importance of martyrdom!

The delusion of this righteous moron has no bounds. The persecuted is going to rot in his own stupidity. Enjoy MAX MOFO. You are going to love it.

 

[Dan Baker]

Need to know exactly where Kerry Turner was left around Canning Dam. At worst, Kerry will be a kilometre either side the same distance from the GPO as Jane. What a coincidence.

Is there maps that can be bought in decimal degrees?

Sometimes pits and pipes can be hard to find. Usually its obviously but sometimes assets are in obscure places.

1996/1997 would be time for an anniversary kill. Maybe someone was gearing up for the next job?

Cops got this guy before the magistrates court closed pre christmas.

Catherine Birnie needs to stay in prison for her own protection. Another delusional twat.

 

[sprockets]

Yeah course they had maps. But some people had an obvious interest in GPS which goes with the maps. They even had handheld GPS. Not that it mattered with roadside placement, although Pippidinny would have been harder to get in the right spot at night and was considerably off the road down and embankment. Hardly conducive to 'dumping' as some people have adamantly pointed out over and over.
Police have said bodies were deliberately placed.

Lets just see what the court has to say, which will bring out considerable evidence. No one has said a UBD hasn't been used. But based on what has happened, they need a bigger map.

Id like to know where Kerry Turner was left exactly. I have had to argue police had DNA and was told I was an idiot. People have sat there ad nausea rotating their finger pointing at the 6 cleared POIs when people have said the POIs were cleared.

I have to say, if there wasn't some geo-spatial relevance to this case I wouldn't be here. But I have seen a lot of people carry out personal attacks and character defamation like they have some self involvement in the case, whether that be a relative, and or to the point of nearly being a an associate to the crime with knowledge of what happened. Its the weirdest thing. Unseen in other online crime discussion.

Dont worry, most of it was done by hand on a map somewhere. Just tryin to work out where large topos might have come from. Maybe Dumas house.

Your UBD is every bit as accurate as a modern GPS. I used large topographic maps back in the 70's and 80's when I hiked. They've always been readily available. "Deliberately placed" could mean anything, from being left on their bellies, with arms and legs pointing in a particular direction to where the bodies were found but it's hardly a pattern when there are only two bodies.

 

[Kurve]

I'm not sure whether it is tunnel vision or they are in the business of interfering in the case.

Obviously there appears some people online that don't want this case persecuted. Deliberate attempts at interrupting the case.
Police say blue, they say black. Then it turns out the evidence is blue. The same people over and over again.
Continuous slander of police operations. Undermining of integrity. Allegations of corruption.

If police don't follow procedure their evidence is inadmissible.

It has been a procession of rolling police teams which prevents any corruption. There have been experts from all over the world. The original POIs did some stupid things that attracted police attention. The current accused had no priors and really no close relation with the victims which makes the contemporary crime much harder to solve.

For DNA to turn up on multiple items over different cases they would need the accused DNA to place on different items. Not impossible, but after all the other POIs thats a hell of a lot of effort.
And why? Why would police want to run around doing all this? Talk about conspiracy theory.

Its only now that DNA technology advancement allows for finding people that they managed to locate someone. And that facilities holding evidence were upgraded that all the states overwhelming evidence can be mapped of its location.

Because police have enough to convict, unlike the other POIs, police have charged the accused with a number of crimes.

Just because police haven't been able to find someone doesn't make the criminal a genius. Making a map doesn't make the culprit a genius. It makes them an a-hole.

Reverse engineering a crime is ten times harder than the idiot that carried out all this crap. But I bet you the megalomaniac dickhead that did it thinks he is some sort of genius.

The crime was committed when technology was expensive, and security limited which is part of the reason criminals were targeting Stirling highway.

Sorry, some people are talking so far out their backsides, its like they are tweeting out of prison and have no idea of police procedure or the constraints they operate under.

I can see the person that ends up persecuted for this crime, thinks he is some sort of martyr.

Anyone who thinks these girls were rich, has not met rich girls.

But he is a self important, insipid delusional meat head or meat heads. I just wish Birnie had been kept alive not allowed to hang himself. Kept alive in his hell. Death is the easy road which is why Birnie took it.
Birnie took a girl from the Conti. Birnie was just another hater. Self hatred of an excuse of a insipid @$%.
I hope the end persecuted rots in his own self importance of martyrdom!

The delusion of this righteous moron has no bounds. The persecuted is going to rot in his own stupidity. Enjoy MAX MOFO. You are going to love it.

WA Police don't really inspire a lot of confidence though Dan, in recent history there's been major and costly screw ups not just on CSK. Which probably means they're going to make sure this prosecution is water tight. And they'll be looking for more charges.

 

[GreyCrow]

Okay, it was said earlier anyway that he wasn't back then and I don't think there was any more planning in dumping bodies than end of the highway make a turn and hit dirt or gravel. The police have been so quiet on this imo because the investigation is still red hot. His GPS was confiscated when he was raided and it was wiped clean. We know he uses one because he's listed, what does it say there was nothing on it?

How old is the GPS unit that was taken? I agree the end of highway scenario is the most likely.

Deliberately placed could be a note from a profiler and could mean anything from '' the bodies were left exposed because the perpetrator wanted them to be found because of an extreme sense of guilt over his actions'' to '' the bodies were deliberately placed on their stomachs because the perpetrator couldn't look them in the face'' to '' placed in a rural setting to minimize discovery''

It will all come out eventually.

 

[GreyCrow]

He's gone north south east and west if it was him that drove Julie Cutler's car into the sea.

Can you define who the other person is please

 

[Kurve]

Can you define who the other person is please

Fixed, thanks Crow.

 

[GreyCrow]

I think he's scoped the areas out of where to leave the girls beforehand in relation to the highways

I did forget to add in my post I agree that CSK did visit the areas before he took the bodies there, that is a given really as we are all creatures of habit and we will more likely visit an area at different times of the day eg nighttime if we have been there before.

 

[Kurve]

I did forget to add in my post I agree that CSK did visit the areas before he took the bodies there, that is a given really as we are all creatures of habit and we will more likely visit an area at different times of the day eg nighttime if we have been there before.

Dead of night in the bush his worst nightmare would be getting bogged, stuck on a log or somehow trapped in an area he wasn't familiar with He'd want a clear run in and out ... well that's what I'd be thinking if I was a SK

 

[Bunnie]

Dead of night in the bush his worst nightmare would be getting bogged, stuck on a log or somehow trapped in an area he wasn't familiar with He'd want a clear run in and out ... well that's what I'd be thinking if I was a SK

Agreed. He was more than likely familiar with the area. He was cautious enough not to get caught, meaning his crimes, although violent, we're premeditated. He planned these crimes with a cool head. This in with being able to hide in plain sight. In the throes of his crimes i feel he is not so controlled. The day or so after he may be either elated and happy or exhausted and introverted. Almost like the range of reactions after a one night stand.

Having said that, we as kids all knew the best place to bury a body would be the pine plantations north of Perth. Dad used to threaten to leave us there when we were driving to Lancelin and arging in the back seat. Maybe my taxi driving Dad did it.

 

[GreyCrow]

Agreed. He was more than likely familiar with the area. He was cautious enough not to get caught, meaning his crimes, although violent, we're premeditated. He planned these crimes with a cool head. This in with being able to hide in plain sight. In the throes of his crimes i feel he is not so controlled. The day or so after he may be either elated and happy or exhausted and introverted. Almost like the range of reactions after a one night stand.

Having said that, we as kids all knew the best place to bury a body would be the pine plantations north of Perth. Dad used to threaten to leave us there when we were driving to Lancelin and arging in the back seat. Maybe my taxi driving Dad did it.

Not a previous POI was he ?

 

[Bunnie]

Not a previous POI was he ?

not unless he was Jesus.

 

[craigos]

S is for stack overflow. R is for regular expression, but not Craigos. N is for numpty. S is for Sutton.

Im still not decided on Karrakatta is for Ford Transit van or Toyota Dual Cab 4WD?

Id like a $1 for every dropkick that said there was no DNA. There is a metaphoric leprechaun.

Last week, police claimed they had found a DNA match between the dropped silk kimono, the Karrakatta rape and the last murder in the Claremont serial killings of Ciara Glennon.
http://www.news.com.au/national/cou...s/news-story/44d3d60b4c894e632bb30a23a11bc787

Who has said there was no DNA? There has always been different fibres, just that the techniques available have limited what can be done with them. They have to be very careful not to destroy what evidence they have.

Keep using that google maps though, am sure you'll come across the smoking gun in no time.

 

[Dan Baker]

WA Police don't really inspire a lot of confidence though Dan, in recent history there's been major and costly screw ups not just on CSK. Which probably means they're going to make sure this prosecution is water tight. And they'll be looking for more charges.

Things are dofferent now arent they with procedures. Police tried it on with the Loyd case and it was thrown back in their face by the judge.
Someone will cop it for that.
A classic example of police anti corruption procedure at work. Someone didn't get the memo.

 

[Dan Baker]

Your UBD is every bit as accurate as a modern GPS. I used large topographic maps back in the 70's and 80's when I hiked. They've always been readily available. "Deliberately placed" could mean anything, from being left on their bellies, with arms and legs pointing in a particular direction to where the bodies were found but it's hardly a pattern when there are only two bodies.

I have never said there wasn't a map. While the UBD would come in handy, from what I can see, someone has used decimal degrees. What maps are decimal degrees? Grids?
Mobile government field workers were very mindful of the GPO, because that is how they were often paid in rates, kilometres etc.

I'm not sure whether the main thoroughfare had changed in 1997, but at one point, Woolcoot was considered a shortcut to Mandurah.

Maybe a trial will prove us all wrong. I will be interested to see how prosecution approach a trial and evidence.

What grid system did Telstra use for their asset pick ups?

ps. I want to see exactly where Kerry Turners body ended up. As in the coordinates. It may make 3 bodies, which would be a game changer.

The VS Commodore being only a year old would make it highly likely to be a Telecom vehicle. If it was with Telecom number plates, there was no way of telling who was driving the vehicle on the road that night unless there was a log book by Telecom that far back or workers were attached to VIN numbers.

 

[Fish breath]

There are echoes of the Hillside Strangler for me...

 

[Dan Baker]

Dead of night in the bush his worst nightmare would be getting bogged, stuck on a log or somehow trapped in an area he wasn't familiar with He'd want a clear run in and out ... well that's what I'd be thinking if I was a SK

Agreed. He was more than likely familiar with the area. He was cautious enough not to get caught, meaning his crimes, although violent, we're premeditated. He planned these crimes with a cool head. This in with being able to hide in plain sight. In the throes of his crimes i feel he is not so controlled. The day or so after he may be either elated and happy or exhausted and introverted. Almost like the range of reactions after a one night stand.

Having said that, we as kids all knew the best place to bury a body would be the pine plantations north of Perth. Dad used to threaten to leave us there when we were driving to Lancelin and arging in the back seat. Maybe my taxi driving Dad did it.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone did a swapsee to a 4WD at some point with some of the crimes. Not sure if VS Commodore had limited slip differential.

At one point, Woolcoot was the shortcut to Mandurah. So people used it as a thoroughfare, even though a proportion of it was not sealed road. This is 2003 where you can see the sealed road legs around as Millar rd to become Woolcoot on unsealed. Where the bitumen eneds is end of Millar rd.
In mid 1990s, Woolcoot East was a new residential area in the process of receiving infrastructure.

The raster is inaccurate of the time. Jane was on the other side of the road where you can see a side loop. So the overlay is on the opposite side the road. The raster needs to go east about 3 metres.
No doubt Earth have made improvements in datasets since 2003. In the current overlay, the pin is aligned with the site.

 

[Dan Baker]

Okay, it was said earlier anyway that he wasn't back then and I don't think there was any more planning in dumping bodies than end of the highway make a turn and hit dirt or gravel. The police have been so quiet on this imo because the investigation is still red hot. His GPS was confiscated when he was raided and it was wiped clean. We know he uses one because he's listed, what does it say there was nothing on it?

If the police have a GPS from the accused, and it has been wiped. Which is someone hiding something. The police may pull the coordinates off, if they exist because in many cases, it is only the strings that are wiped.

I wonder if police have checked Google tracking for the accused?

 

[Fish breath]

I'm struggling to understand the purpose of the discussion of GPS and the the CSK. First, automobiles in Australia were not equiped with GPS in 1996-96, so what exactly are we trying to prove here? We don't have the technology, or didn't at the time, and we don't have the car. Where is the link to the killer? I don't geddit!

 

[Kurve]

There are echoes of the Hillside Strangler for me...

Hillside Strangler case was awful, do you think there was two people on CSK Fish?

I'm struggling to understand the purpose of the discussion of GPS and the the CSK. First, automobiles in Australia were not equiped with GPS in 1996-96, so what exactly are we trying to prove here? We don't have the technology, or didn't at the time, and we don't have the car. Where is the link to the killer? I don't geddit!

Trying to work out a pattern I think. Too bad it doesn't look like he's going to talk, a lot of this speculation would be done with. Even one of the Birnie's talked and he was an experienced crook who probably should have known better. Why isn't this bloke cracking?

 

[Dan Baker]

I'm struggling to understand the purpose of the discussion of GPS and the the CSK. First, automobiles in Australia were not equiped with GPS in 1996-96, so what exactly are we trying to prove here? We don't have the technology, or didn't at the time, and we don't have the car. Where is the link to the killer? I don't geddit!

I think we are going to have to wait for the trial to bring light some concepts to some people.

Obviously some people are struggling to grasp why someone might use a map in this particular crime. Maybe the motives and the use of a map to locate where someone might dump bodies may become more evident. The accused obviously had an interest in GPS early in the peace. There is evidence of a very early version of handheld GPS owned by the accused.
I personally don't think someone committed the crime then in the dark of night aimlessly think about where they might get rid of a body. Why go to all the effort? A GPS might come in handy if there was a specific GPS location he wanted to place that body so far from the road where he needed to be within a few metres in 1997. As police said, the bodies were placed deliberately.

Ciara was carted some 60 metres from the road side. There was plenty of other places the body could have been taken with significant hiding the body instead of going to all that effort.
If he really wanted the body found....

As pointed out on Australian serial killer websites, premeditation is common.

Posted 21 Dec 2004, 2:00pm abc.net.au

Map: Australia

The publisher of the Gregory's and UBD street directories has been taken over by Telstra.
The Telstra subsidiary, Sensis, has secured 100 per cent ownership of Universal Publishers.
Universal Publishers is a leading mapping and street directory business operating in Australia and New Zealand.
Sensis chief executive officer Bruce Akhurst says it is an important strategic acquisition in the fast-growing digital mapping industry.
Sensis already provides 18 million digital maps per month through its whereis.com.au web site.
The company has been working closely with Universal Publishers for more than nine years.
The purchase is from a private vendor who wants the sale price kept confidential but the ABC has been told it is well under $50 million.

• 
  
  
  • serial killers usually premeditate their crimes, frequently fantasising and planning with detail, including the specific victim (Ressler, Burgess & Douglas 1988)
  • serial killers are likely to use similar event locations (but different physical locations) for their crimes, move the body from one location to another and dispose of the body in remote locations (Kraemer, Lord & Heilbrun 2004).

 

[Bunnie]

I think we are going to have to wait for the trial to bring light some concepts to some people.

Obviously some people are struggling to grasp why someone might use a map in this particular crime. Maybe the motives and the use of a map to locate where someone might dump bodies may become more evident. The accused obviously had an interest in GPS early in the peace. There is evidence of a very early version of handheld GPS owned by the accused.
I personally don't think someone committed the crime then in the dark of night aimlessly think about where they might get rid of a body.
As pointed out on Australian serial killer websites, premeditation is common.

Posted 21 Dec 2004, 2:00pm abc.net.au

Map: Australia

The publisher of the Gregory's and UBD street directories has been taken over by Telstra.
The Telstra subsidiary, Sensis, has secured 100 per cent ownership of Universal Publishers.
Universal Publishers is a leading mapping and street directory business operating in Australia and New Zealand.
Sensis chief executive officer Bruce Akhurst says it is an important strategic acquisition in the fast-growing digital mapping industry.
Sensis already provides 18 million digital maps per month through its whereis.com.au web site.
The company has been working closely with Universal Publishers for more than nine years.
The purchase is from a private vendor who wants the sale price kept confidential but the ABC has been told it is well under $50 million.

• 
  
  
  • serial killers usually premeditate their crimes, frequently fantasising and planning with detail, including the specific victim (Ressler, Burgess & Douglas 1988)
  • serial killers are likely to use similar event locations (but different physical locations) for their crimes, move the body from one location to another and dispose of the body in remote locations (Kraemer, Lord & Heilbrun 2004).

Relevance?

 

[Fish breath]

Hillside Strangler case was awful, do you think there was two people on CSK Fish?

****************************
FishBreath Response: The Hillside strangler - as you note above - was actually 2 men, cousins, who pretending to be cops coerced young women into their cars, raped them, tortured and strangled them, then dumped their bodies off the highway - often in rough terrain. Initially, the cops thought it was one guy but he eventually fessed up he was working with a partner - a family member. Some broad consistencies there as well as practical considerations. Much easier to subdue a victim and drag her body through rough terrain with 2 men than one. Just a thought...

************************

Trying to work out a pattern I think. Too bad it doesn't look like he's going to talk, a lot of this speculation would be done with. Even one of the Birnie's talked and he was an experienced crook who probably should have known better. Why isn't this bloke cracking?

FishBreath Response

The only logical pattern for tracing the previous victim is to use that information to run models or simulations of where Sarah might be. Now, I don't wanna put a dampener on people's enthusiasm but the cops have a sample of 2 to run off. Any model would have spurious results without more information - by which I mean more bodies... Or perhaps a witness or a partner. And that leaves me to the last question of why he's not talking. Because this is his best chance of getting away with it. I wouldn't be talking either!

 

[Kurve]

FishBreath Response

The only logical pattern for tracing the previous victim is to use that information to run models or simulations of where Sarah might be. Now, I don't wanna put a dampener on people's enthusiasm but the cops have a sample of 2 to run off. Any model would have spurious results without more information - by which I mean more bodies... Or perhaps a witness or a partner. And that leaves me to the last question of why he's not talking. Because this is his best chance of getting away with it. I wouldn't be talking either!

Might change mind when his legals have had a chance to look at the full brief, try to do some kind of a deal